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Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: Streetwize] #1970730
12/16/15 11:14 AM
12/16/15 11:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 176
NC USA
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ultimatelenny Offline
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ultimatelenny  Offline
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NC USA
Lot of good info here, but there are so many variables , it would be quite hard to put them all in a paragraph. What you said in the initial post sums it up well as far as determining how the converter will react as you come up on rpm closer to stall speed taking the multiplication away and hitting the tires softer or leaving at a lower RPM and giving the engine more of a run at the converter resulting in hitting the tire harder. Again, all the variables around the car, especially suspension set up, track conditions, weather conditions, etc will have an effect on the performance of each car,and tuning to the given conditions goes without saying... so many variables. If you want you can call and we can discuss it in more detail.


Lenny Croteau www.ultimateconverter.com Phone 704-892-6837 Fax 704-892-6880
Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: ultimatelenny] #1970743
12/16/15 12:03 PM
12/16/15 12:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline OP
master
Streetwize  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Thanks Lenny!

I was hoping you'd see this, don't know if you remember talking to me about it but what you just reiterated makes a lot of sense now.

BTW, did you ever see this clip of my buddy Nat's 442" Jeep with your UCC 9 1/2" Converter? This thing drives like a stocker and runs low 12's at 3800+ pounds!! Watch it CRUSH this modded SRT-8 AWD Cherokee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bNsxJLSie0

I put my 9 1/2" UCC converter behind my new 440" small block in a 66 Valiant wagon, the 3800 stall should be perfect. The motor will make just a hair more power than the jeep and be about 600 pounds lighter, it's going to be a blast!

Val.jpg
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/16/15 12:04 PM.

WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: Streetwize] #1970768
12/16/15 12:58 PM
12/16/15 12:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Originally Posted By Streetwize
My 2-step is triggered off the brake pedal. I have it set at 3000 and it hits the tires hard but my 60's suffer due to the short wheelbase and the (too) high rate of wheelstand. If I understand what Lenny said the higher the launch speed the less violent a light car will hit the tires. Like I said it seems counter intuitive but since you are at WOT you get no torque boost from the (secondary) pump shot.

So....I was going to try 3800 and if that helps, 4200 on a 5300 flash, brake pedal is plenty stout to keep it from rolling through at 3000.

Still hoping Lenny will chime in, I may just need to call him. Again, I'm trying to visualize the fluid dynamics of the converter in those first couple 1/10's of a second after coming off the footbrake.

It's logical that generally the lighter a car is the "tighter" a given converter will be for a given gear (torque multiplication) and the hit would be a bit softer, just trying to get my head around the FB RPM vs launch RPM vs true Flash (full pull)


What he said falls in line with what I said about slapping
the conv... higher launch has less of a run up to hit the
conv stall point... the torque multiplication is still there
but you dont end up with the free rpm slap
wave

Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1970874
12/16/15 03:57 PM
12/16/15 03:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 176
NC USA
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ultimatelenny Offline
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ultimatelenny  Offline
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NC USA
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By Streetwize
My 2-step is triggered off the brake pedal. I have it set at 3000 and it hits the tires hard but my 60's suffer due to the short wheelbase and the (too) high rate of wheelstand. If I understand what Lenny said the higher the launch speed the less violent a light car will hit the tires. Like I said it seems counter intuitive but since you are at WOT you get no torque boost from the (secondary) pump shot.

So....I was going to try 3800 and if that helps, 4200 on a 5300 flash, brake pedal is plenty stout to keep it from rolling through at 3000.

Still hoping Lenny will chime in, I may just need to call him. Again, I'm trying to visualize the fluid dynamics of the converter in those first couple 1/10's of a second after coming off the footbrake.

It's logical that generally the lighter a car is the "tighter" a given converter will be for a given gear (torque multiplication) and the hit would be a bit softer, just trying to get my head around the FB RPM vs launch RPM vs true Flash (full pull)


What he said falls in line with what I said about slapping
the conv... higher launch has less of a run up to hit the
conv stall point... the torque multiplication is still there
but you dont end up with the free rpm slap
wave


I agree with you completely Mr. P Body thumbs


Lenny Croteau www.ultimateconverter.com Phone 704-892-6837 Fax 704-892-6880
Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1970890
12/16/15 04:28 PM
12/16/15 04:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
M
madscientist Offline
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madscientist  Offline
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M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By 67mprfan
I'm curious about hooking my 2 step so I can have a little more consistency and focus more on the light.if I leave higher than 3200 my 60ft is crap so I leave about 2900 with converter flashing to 5400


When you go up n rpm.. what else are you changing..
your changing the torque point and the slap of the
conv.. when I go lower on rpm I have to raise the
tire pressure to compensate.. if I go up I lower the
pressure.. being a 4 link I dont have to change that
part.. but if a ladder bar I did have to change the
front of the bars
wave


While raising the tire pressure is easier, you could accomplish the same thing by stiffining the shock in rebound. Not as easy as a tire pressure change, but it accomplishes the same thing. Well kind of.

Last edited by madscientist; 12/16/15 04:31 PM.

Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: madscientist] #1970928
12/16/15 05:35 PM
12/16/15 05:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline OP
master
Streetwize  Offline OP
master

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Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Thanks to everybody, it's a good topic!


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1971064
12/16/15 09:13 PM
12/16/15 09:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,267
North, Alabama
D-50 Offline
pro stock
D-50  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,267
North, Alabama
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By D-50
Originally Posted By rowin4
There are tracks that allow a trans brake in the foot brake class, I race at 2 of them. Never understood why. They both have a electronic class which I guess just lets the racer add a crossover/delay box.


That does not make sense. Why call it a foot brake class and allow a trans brake?


Because its called no box and box.. thats the
way division 3 is.. thats why I have a trans brake
because its legal even in no box
wave


Down here there is 2 classes, Footbrake, Any ET.(No delay box,No 2 step,No trans brake, foot brake only) The other class is Pro,Any ET (You can have all the above)


1.33 60 ft,6.21 at 110.59 in the 1/8, pump gas small block,2950lbs,drag radials,mufflers and driven to track ...
Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1971094
12/16/15 10:00 PM
12/16/15 10:00 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030
ohio
6
67mprfan Offline
super stock
67mprfan  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030
ohio
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By 67mprfan
I'm curious about hooking my 2 step so I can have a little more consistency and focus more on the light.if I leave higher than 3200 my 60ft is crap so I leave about 2900 with converter flashing to 5400


When you go up n rpm.. what else are you changing..
your changing the torque point and the slap of the
conv.. when I go lower on rpm I have to raise the
tire pressure to compensate.. if I go up I lower the
pressure.. being a 4 link I dont have to change that
part.. but if a ladder bar I did have to change the
front of the bars
wave




Mine is a ladder bar car it's set in the bottom hole it was in the middle but pinion angle was off..I set tire pressure to track conditions that day.


Here we have Pro and Super Pro classes, 1 allows delay boxes both will let you run trans brakes

IMG_20151102_200152_195.jpgIMG_20130830_190736_266.jpg

71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it.
67 Belvedere that worked it's way in the 10's
Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: Streetwize] #1971148
12/16/15 11:19 PM
12/16/15 11:19 PM

C
crabman173
Unregistered
crabman173
Unregistered
C



I foot braked a Duster running 6.90-7.0 for years
What I found was --looser converter made car faster but....
I could cut way better lights with tighter converter
Stalling it hard as possible also enabled better lights
Once I quit caring about ET and tuned car for best reaction times and best lights it started winning!
Two steps and Transbrakes in footbrake is just like mixing chocolate and [censored]--it is silly--either footbrake the car or put a box in it!
You are fighting city hall
Drum front brakes on footbrake car are a MUST--they are self energizing--they HOLD the car 10 times better than disc--most winning footbrake cars have drums--there are ways are lighten them--been around for decades
Toss the brake or get a box
Brakes are the secret to Foot Braking
Loose super fast converters sink the whole set up
Leave RPM has to be consistent to cut good lights and win races--Period.
I am always amazed that folks are never seeking ways to WIN more races--
rather they fiddle with the mechanical aspects of the game
Those have to be understood for sure so your basic questions are super valid but if you want to win races study the guys and ask the guys that win lots of races --same ole guys win all the darn time and many can't even adjust a shifter--they just have learned How to Win!
Get the car where it will hook in a plowed field and is not so sensitive to track conditions--keep converter on tight side --work with all the things you have available like front tire pressure, shocks, big mirrors, staging technique--never forget the psych game--use it like you have a truckload of it to get rid of fast--Polite drivers do not win--
Then go win a race--amazing thing is after you get one they start to come easier and easier--pretty soon you are the guy they don't want to get beside--then they start beating themselves and you are da Man!

Converter choice should be about tuning car for best lights in a footbrake car--nothing else. ET should be just a result not the goal.

Nothing helps like trying several and just see what happens--you will find a favorite and win like crazy until it blows up--then you will have to buy several more to get another one like it--they are like cakes --same recipe from same baker--top looks different on every one!

Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: Streetwize] #1971149
12/16/15 11:21 PM
12/16/15 11:21 PM

C
crabman173
Unregistered
crabman173
Unregistered
C



I said [censored] like sourkraut how did That get censored--really???

Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: Streetwize] #1971152
12/16/15 11:24 PM
12/16/15 11:24 PM

C
crabman173
Unregistered
crabman173
Unregistered
C



Your little wagon is super duper COOL!!!!

Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: ] #1971372
12/17/15 12:13 PM
12/17/15 12:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,237
fredericksburg,va
C
cudaman1969 Offline
master
cudaman1969  Offline
master
C

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,237
fredericksburg,va
Originally Posted By crabman173
I foot braked a Duster running 6.90-7.0 for years
What I found was --looser converter made car faster but....
I could cut way better lights with tighter converter
Stalling it hard as possible also enabled better lights
Once I quit caring about ET and tuned car for best reaction times and best lights it started winning!
Two steps and Transbrakes in footbrake is just like mixing chocolate and [censored]--it is silly--either footbrake the car or put a box in it!
You are fighting city hall
Drum front brakes on footbrake car are a MUST--they are self energizing--they HOLD the car 10 times better than disc--most winning footbrake cars have drums--there are ways are lighten them--been around for decades
Toss the brake or get a box
Brakes are the secret to Foot Braking
Loose super fast converters sink the whole set up
Leave RPM has to be consistent to cut good lights and win races--Period.
I am always amazed that folks are never seeking ways to WIN more races--
rather they fiddle with the mechanical aspects of the game
Those have to be understood for sure so your basic questions are super valid but if you want to win races study the guys and ask the guys that win lots of races --same ole guys win all the darn time and many can't even adjust a shifter--they just have learned How to Win!
Get the car where it will hook in a plowed field and is not so sensitive to track conditions--keep converter on tight side --work with all the things you have available like front tire pressure, shocks, big mirrors, staging technique--never forget the psych game--use it like you have a truckload of it to get rid of fast--Polite drivers do not win--
Then go win a race--amazing thing is after you get one they start to come easier and easier--pretty soon you are the guy they don't want to get beside--then they start beating themselves and you are da Man!

Converter choice should be about tuning car for best lights in a footbrake car--nothing else. ET should be just a result not the goal.

Nothing helps like trying several and just see what happens--you will find a favorite and win like crazy until it blows up--then you will have to buy several more to get another one like it--they are like cakes --same recipe from same baker--top looks different on every one!

Couldn't have said it better.

Re: Footbrake Race Converter experts - ? on 2 step vs Flash RPM [Re: Streetwize] #1971383
12/17/15 12:47 PM
12/17/15 12:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 149
Cleveland Ohio
Discoquik Offline
member
Discoquik  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 149
Cleveland Ohio
We set all our stuff up to leave at the lowest RPM possible and keep the tree green. The convertor stall is more critical to peak power and fall back RPM than anything else in bracket racing.

To me .03-.05 in ET isn't worth it to max out driveline components and not be in the hunt on the starting line setting a car up to need 4000+ launch RPM. Generally for a car to be REALLY good at any track year round you need to be about 3000-3600 off the Tbrake and off the pedal usually 2400-2800, any more than that it will spin somewhere sometime.

I gave up a long time ago giving this advice to racers that are teen and double 0 red at 4600-4800 and do everything but lower launch RPM because "I ain't gonna go out there and run slower!"....who cares? Loose convertors and 4.10 gears are your friend in most door cars. Gives you a big window on the tree.

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