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Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results #1936150
10/21/15 02:06 PM
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I took a set of used -1s to my guy and tested out some different backcuts. Just curious, what would you guys choose? And what kind of power do you think they'd make on my combo? 499" low deck, 13:1 on E85, 1.7 Jesels and I'll get a custom solid roller (I'm guessing 270-275 @.050, .750 lift ???), Indy 4500 intake, 1150 Dominator, and 2" headers. This will all go in my 3900# race weight Charger with a 4200 converter, low gear set 727, and 3.55s (street car). The heads were flowed on a 4.50" bore. We tested as they came with no backcut, and then a 30° and 33° cut. I also attached a pic of the exhaust flow, no pipe.

Screenshot_2015-10-21-11-02-38.png12169234_878244225598392_180538687_o.jpg12169065_878244092265072_657589972_o.jpg12168522_878244502265031_2010445126_o.jpg
Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: Charger453] #1936293
10/21/15 07:04 PM
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I don't remember seeing back cuts cost 10 or 15 cfm at peak before. Usually they just boost the low numbers, then the gains flatten out at some point and you don't see any more gains.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: Charger453] #1936383
10/21/15 09:37 PM
10/21/15 09:37 PM
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I can't answer your question but those look like good flowing heads, the 440-1 heads on my 69 Dart only flowed 325, and it went 9.82 at 136 with a 500" pump gas motor at 3200 pounds. I always wanted to have the heads cnc ported up to 370 cfm or whatever the new programs are doing, then get the right cam to match, I think it would have gone 9.40's.


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Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: PorkyPig] #1936391
10/21/15 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted By PorkyPig
I don't remember seeing back cuts cost 10 or 15 cfm at peak before. Usually they just boost the low numbers, then the gains flatten out at some point and you don't see any more gains.
iagree Strange???


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Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: Charger453] #1936416
10/21/15 10:39 PM
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I should have added that the flow chart posted with no backcut was something done a week prior before his 4.50" Chrysler bore plate arrived. I just wanted a quick test to see if they were worth a crap and as advertised all around since I got them thru an Ebay auction. They were tested on a 4.35" Chevy bore plate and possibly centered over the cylinder too much so perhaps that inflated the #'s? That was my initial thought, but we also tested the 30° backcut that day on the same plate and the #'s then were very similar to the ones posted here from the Chrysler plate. Just a few cfm higher in the low and mid-lift #'s on the Chrysler plate with nearly identical #' from .500 on. I'm sure the 10cfm given up on the peak lift #'s is worth less power than all the low and mid lift flow gained with a backcut.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: ProSport] #1936417
10/21/15 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted By ProSport
I can't answer your question but those look like good flowing heads, the 440-1 heads on my 69 Dart only flowed 325, and it went 9.82 at 136 with a 500" pump gas motor at 3200 pounds. I always wanted to have the heads cnc ported up to 370 cfm or whatever the new programs are doing, then get the right cam to match, I think it would have gone 9.40's.


I was always impressed by your old combo. I can only hope the junk I put together will run as well. I don't know the weight, but I was told these were on a 499" low deck running race gas in an A-body that went 9.50s. I'd be ecstatic if my heavy turd can flirt with 9's.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: Charger453] #1936572
10/22/15 08:43 AM
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My guess for power would be roughly 775 hp on the high end, given what a lot of 440-1 headed motors make. The converter and gears I think will keep you a ways above 10.00 but you should have a pretty good mph. A lot is going to depend on the true stall of the converter. For decent performance you need something with at least 5200 stall. If the motor makes an honest 775 hp, and the converter and gear ratios are optimized, then the computer says 9.98 at 136 mph under IDEAL conditions.
I built a 499 with bowl ported 440-1 heads, 13/1 compression, alky injection and Methanol, cam was 283/290/108 UltraDyne roller,5500 stall with a Torqueflite, car went 9.34 at 142 mph at 3,000 race weight. My computer says 727 hp for that run. That motor pushing 3900 lbs would go about 10.20 at best.


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Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: Charger453] #1936727
10/22/15 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted By Charger453
I should have added that the flow chart posted with no backcut was something done a week prior before his 4.50" Chrysler bore plate arrived. I just wanted a quick test to see if they were worth a crap and as advertised all around since I got them thru an Ebay auction. They were tested on a 4.35" Chevy bore plate and possibly centered over the cylinder too much so perhaps that inflated the #'s? That was my initial thought, but we also tested the 30° backcut that day on the same plate and the #'s then were very similar to the ones posted here from the Chrysler plate. Just a few cfm higher in the low and mid-lift #'s on the Chrysler plate with nearly identical #' from .500 on. I'm sure the 10cfm given up on the peak lift #'s is worth less power than all the low and mid lift flow gained with a backcut.


Some of this isn't quite so.

I always look for ways to kill low lift (low lift being relative here, as low lift for a .600 lift cam is not the same as low lift for a 1.000 lift cam) in most everything I do. As for the mids,...if I'm testing and the low lift goes away and takes a bit of the mid with it, as long as I gain some back at MAX lift for the cam you are using I ignore it. The confusion come in with what is low lift, what is mid lift etc. Anything under .600 is a street cam so low lift would be .100-.250 or so. If you were using an .800 lift cam I would spend time at .100-.300 trying to lose some flow to gain it elsewhere.

All that said, when talking back cuts, usually I give the number of degrees less than the seat angle as the back cut angle. Since air doesn't bend more than 7-8 degrees, that is about all the back cut they will take. For example, if you are using a 45* seat, a 7 degree back cut would equal a 38* degree cut (45-38). You actually used a 10 and 15 degree back cut.

I can tell you I actually quit using back cuts a while ago. I have learned the hard way that even if a back cut increases flow anywhere in the curve, you can (and probably will) lose horsepower. I have done many heads that had a flow LOSS that picked up HP, for many reasons. Most of the time is was not back cutting the valves. An increase in airflow won't always mean an increase in HP.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: Charger453] #1936842
10/22/15 05:33 PM
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Very interesting info. I was hoping someone would chime in with some experience.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: gregsdart] #1936918
10/22/15 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted By gregsdart
My guess for power would be roughly 775 hp on the high end, given what a lot of 440-1 headed motors make. The converter and gears I think will keep you a ways above 10.00 but you should have a pretty good mph. A lot is going to depend on the true stall of the converter. For decent performance you need something with at least 5200 stall. If the motor makes an honest 775 hp, and the converter and gear ratios are optimized, then the computer says 9.98 at 136 mph under IDEAL conditions.
I built a 499 with bowl ported 440-1 heads, 13/1 compression, alky injection and Methanol, cam was 283/290/108 UltraDyne roller,5500 stall with a Torqueflite, car went 9.34 at 142 mph at 3,000 race weight. My computer says 727 hp for that run. That motor pushing 3900 lbs would go about 10.20 at best.


That's about what I was guessing for power as well from other -1 builds I've seen. I hoped all of this could run a 10.2x or 10.1x. I realize the gears will hurt me some. As for the converter, I'll probably get with PTC and see about reflashing it. My old 12:1 451 on e85 with ported Eddys (310/230 flow) and a 253/263, .640/.640 solid roller went 10.50s in this car so there's hope. That was with a converter that flashed to 4,400 and 4.10s.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: Charger453] #1936935
10/22/15 08:13 PM
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3.55 will make the converter seem looser. That being said I still think it would like north of 5200 flash. I would also suggest lifters with bushings instead of needle bearings. Keep an eye on the lash and spring pressure. I see no reason why this combo shouldn't meet your goals.
Doug

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: dvw] #1937024
10/22/15 11:05 PM
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Normal deal is if back cut on intake valve hurts flow your short turn shape is wrong.

The other normal deal for angle change is 15* so normal 45* seat back cut would be 30*
But I have found the 33* back cut works better on most 45* seat valves.

The other thing to keep in mind seat width and back cut width will change flow curve
Plus shape of valve will dictate back cut.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: W5DART66] #1937050
10/22/15 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted By W5DART66
Normal deal is if back cut on intake valve hurts flow your short turn shape is wrong.

The other normal deal for angle change is 15* so normal 45* seat back cut would be 30*
But I have found the 33* back cut works better on most 45* seat valves.

The other thing to keep in mind seat width and back cut width will change flow curve
Plus shape of valve will dictate back cut.



Like I said, I'm not the only one who has stopped back cutting valves. I would also say to spend more time with the top cut than a back cut (top cut in the chamber, not on the valve EVER) but then we would be talking about short turn stuff I could never prove.

OP...google Larry Meaux. See if you can find one of the few intervies he gave. Read that. If that won't stop you from back cutting valves, all the flow testing you could do won't either.

I will never say I will never back cut a valve again, but I'd be damn hard pressed to do it.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: madscientist] #1937079
10/23/15 12:27 AM
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I have talked to larry and my buddy is good friends with him.

I don't back cut exhaust valve due to the damage it does in respect to reverse flow.

But a good intake port will like a back cut.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: W5DART66] #1937102
10/23/15 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted By W5DART66
I have talked to larry and my buddy is good friends with him.

I don't back cut exhaust valve due to the damage it does in respect to reverse flow.

But a good intake port will like a back cut.



Yep, and Larry backcuts a lot of his stuff too. Killing low lift flow may or may not be a good thing...depends on how your killing it, and how the DC's are affected.
Also pay attention to the sound of the port with and without back cuts...in the lift area's you'll access.


Brian Hafliger
Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1937177
10/23/15 09:49 AM
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The 30* backcut in this case is the configuration I would go with. Look at that flowrate @ .400" its excellent. Don't care much about what happens below .250" lift. J.Rob


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Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: RAMM] #1937701
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Originally Posted By RAMM
The 30* backcut in this case is the configuration I would go with. Look at that flowrate @ .400" its excellent. Don't care much about what happens below .250" lift. J.Rob


Jesse did you take note numbers are 3 different valves not back cut on same valves that he no back cut.

Valve shape can have huge effect on flow numbers.

OP you need to try the flow test with the valves that you ran in heads.

Don't worry about hurting performance with 2 valves with different back cuts it will never show up in your car.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: madscientist] #1937987
10/24/15 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By madscientist
Originally Posted By Charger453
I should have added that the flow chart posted with no backcut was something done a week prior before his 4.50" Chrysler bore plate arrived. I just wanted a quick test to see if they were worth a crap and as advertised all around since I got them thru an Ebay auction. They were tested on a 4.35" Chevy bore plate and possibly centered over the cylinder too much so perhaps that inflated the #'s? That was my initial thought, but we also tested the 30° backcut that day on the same plate and the #'s then were very similar to the ones posted here from the Chrysler plate. Just a few cfm higher in the low and mid-lift #'s on the Chrysler plate with nearly identical #' from .500 on. I'm sure the 10cfm given up on the peak lift #'s is worth less power than all the low and mid lift flow gained with a backcut.


Some of this isn't quite so.

I always look for ways to kill low lift (low lift being relative here, as low lift for a .600 lift cam is not the same as low lift for a 1.000 lift cam) in most everything I do. As for the mids,...if I'm testing and the low lift goes away and takes a bit of the mid with it, as long as I gain some back at MAX lift for the cam you are using I ignore it. The confusion come in with what is low lift, what is mid lift etc. Anything under .600 is a street cam so low lift would be .100-.250 or so. If you were using an .800 lift cam I would spend time at .100-.300 trying to lose some flow to gain it elsewhere.

All that said, when talking back cuts, usually I give the number of degrees less than the seat angle as the back cut angle. Since air doesn't bend more than 7-8 degrees, that is about all the back cut they will take. For example, if you are using a 45* seat, a 7 degree back cut would equal a 38* degree cut (45-38). You actually used a 10 and 15 degree back cut.

I can tell you I actually quit using back cuts a while ago. I have learned the hard way that even if a back cut increases flow anywhere in the curve, you can (and probably will) lose horsepower. I have done many heads that had a flow LOSS that picked up HP, for many reasons. Most of the time is was not back cutting the valves. An increase in airflow won't always mean an increase in HP.
I would love to see what information brought you to these conclusions.


T & K Performance
Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: PorkyPig] #1938344
10/25/15 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted By PorkyPig
I don't remember seeing back cuts cost 10 or 15 cfm at peak before. Usually they just boost the low numbers, then the gains flatten out at some point and you don't see any more gains.


Some of my SB stuff has lost 10 cfm with a wide back cut. Combination specific IMO.

Re: Flowed a ported 440-1 with different backcuts..results [Re: skrews] #1938407
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Originally Posted By skrews
Originally Posted By PorkyPig
I don't remember seeing back cuts cost 10 or 15 cfm at peak before. Usually they just boost the low numbers, then the gains flatten out at some point and you don't see any more gains.


Some of my SB stuff has lost 10 cfm with a wide back cut. Combination specific IMO.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And the 10 CFM lost is usually in the worst place to lose it.

I will back cut when the seat gets too wide, buty you are always fighting the width of the back cut as well. A properly made valve shouldn't need to be back cut.

To the OP....spend some time with your bench doing "wrong" things with it. Do what you think won't make any sense, and see what you learn with that. If you have any questions you can PM me.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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