Hi, Looking for opinion's on using start retard...12.8 to 1 compression, I am not at all happy with it turning over while using it. power master xs starter and odyssey battery (12v)kicks back and very hard starting .have resorted to cranking with ignition off , but would prefer not doing it that way, many have suggest to disconnect it all together..38* locked out .e85

how much timing are you pulling out when you hit the starter button.

We tried 10 and 20 degrees start retard for the Duster. Kicked back with both. Starts fine with no retard. Probably has to do with rotor phasing. Our timing is locked out at 36

I believe it's pulling out 25*

rotor phasing is correct ...

I run the older 7al and added the start retard to it and I know there is one wire from the start retard box that go's to the starter relay that is only activated when the start button is pushed, that wire activates the box and put's it into retard mode untill you release the start button then it go's to full timing once the engine is running, are you sure it's hooked up correct and working?

with the 3 you have the ability to set it up with 12 volt activation switched or constant when it riches 600 rpm it returned to full advance the latter is the one I am using. I am sure its working , no almost believe its not

Ok, not familiar with the -3 does it have retard chips or a dial? I have known both to get a little coroded or dirty and loose their contact had a 2step quit once and had it on a dial switch, give it a couple twists of the knob and all was well after that.

mine has been acting up as well so i spin the motor then flip the switch and it fires off, if i do it with key only it will kick hard even with timing backed off to 25, my comp. is over 16.1 with timing locked at 34. maybe this is a common problem ?

Using it is more trouble than its worth. 7AL-3 takes out 25 degrees on the start. Thats to much, causing it to kickback. I just disconnected the wire from the terminal.

I have never used a start retard with a crank trigger. Turn the starter first, then turn on the ignition.

Read this article about start retard and phasing the rotor. You need to make a compromise.
http://www.hotrodhotline.com/md/html/rotorphasing.php

This is what I have hear ,ditch the retard. thanks

I believe the new -3's use a chip to adjust the amount of retard. They should work now.

You are correct. The new 7AL-3 have an adjustable retard for the start.

Those of us who make starters would like all the electronic start retards to go away. Please.

While the rotor phasing is a concern, it usually doesn't cause a big problem unless you are retarding 20 degrees or more AND using a small distributor cap (assuming the phasing was at least reasonably close to begin with).

The real problem is the way in which the timing is retarded during cranking when using electronic timing retard.

Most traditional distributors have a form of "start retard" but they start out with the timing retarded and then added more advance as the engine rpm increases by using weights and springs. This is a better way to prevent kick-back during cranking than an electronic retard (which starts out with the timing advanced and then attempts to retard the timing during cranking). There are also distributors/ignitions that have electronic advance and they work fine as well. It's just the electronic start retard that causes problems sometimes.

Unfortunately, some engines use a crank trigger (or a distributor without a mechanical or electronic advance) so the timing is locked in the fully advanced position. This can make cranking the engine with the starter difficult. So the aftermarket ignition companies added electronic start retard as an option to some ignition systems/boxes. In theory this works fine, but in reality it sometimes makes kick-back worse, at least part of the time.

While rotor phasing is a concern, the big problem is how the ignition calculates how much to retard the timing. When cranking the engine, the ignition doesn't send any current to the plugs until the the pickup in the distributor (or the crank trigger) sends out about three or four pulses to the ignition box. Then, by taking the average time between pulses, the ignition calculates how much (in fractions of a second) the timing should be delayed to get the desired amount of start retard. Then the ignition starts sending current to the plugs. Once you let go of the starter switch (or the engine reaches a certain rpm), the ignition stops delaying the sparks. This should work fine but often doesn't.

The ignition uses the average time between pulses to do the calculations. Unfortunately, unless the engine cranks at a very consistent rpm, the average time calculated from a sample of only three or four pulses will not be very accurate, especially on a high compression engine where the starter speed varies as the engine rotates. The ignition then uses this inaccurate data to calculate how much to retard the timing during cranking. Sometimes the data is so bad the ignition is retarded way too much or not nearly enough and the engine kicks back, often breaking starters and ring gears. The ignition companies could make the calculations more accurate by allowing more pulses before sending current to the plugs but if the starter cranks too long before starting the engine, the battery might start to get weak (plus customers would complain about long cranking times).

There is a low tech solution for engines with locked timing. Install a second ignition pickup/trigger in the distributor (or add a pickup to the crank trigger distributor if running a crank trigger) that is retarded about 15 or 20 degrees compared to the other pickup/trigger. Then, using a double throw switch, fire the engine on the retarded pickup and then switch to the advanced pickup once the engine is running. Simple, works great, not expensive. But I have trouble getting people to try it. So, at the very least, turn the ignition off, get the engine cranking, and then turn on the ignition. Just please, don't use electronic timing retard. While it may work just fine 50 times in a row, every now and then (say when the battery is a little low on charge)it is going to cause a nasty kick-back.

Adding a second pickup for the crank trigger sounds like a smart Idea.
Maybe only 10-15 degrees lower, so the rotor will be in phasing.
When running nitrous with just one system, you could switch back to the start pickup, that will double as nitrous timing and start timing. The rotor would then be lined up for the lower timing and be on the edge with the N/A timing.