[size:23pt][/size]In April 2014 I contacted MM to build an engine. Told them I wanted a big CI pump gas engine. After talking to the owner (Mike Ware) he sold me on a 1000 hp 622 w/PSO heads and a Callies crank. Told me most racers don't want a big CI pump gas engine and he has personally wanted to do one but never had the time. We agreed on a price and I was told I would have it by June.

July comes around, no engine. Am told all machine work is done, just waiting to be assembled. August....no engine. Tells me "This isn't a simple 500 hp 451 that I could have a less experienced person assemble and that he (Mike Ware) was personally going to assemble it."

Early Dec I get a picture of short block. Late Dec am told heads need pushrod tubes. 3 weeks later get picture of engine on dyno minus intake,only to discover intake and spacers need epoxied. Engine comes off dyno. 2 weeks later back on dyno and after initial startup am told its over oiling top end and it filled vacuum pump puke tank with oil. I personally think it also sucked the pan dry. Their fix was have pushrods made with restricters. Engine comes back off dyno. 2 weeks later back on dyno and HP numbers are low. Checked cylinder pressure and it only has 140 psi cylinder pressure. Said he was being conservative with compression.....uh huh. Now have to mill heads. Engine comes back off dyno. Back on dyno for the 3rd time after heads get milled and now has 150 psi. Mid March Sends me email saying its ready.

Once I get it first thing I notice is they put a Powerbond balancer on a 1000 horse engine with a Callies crank. Also has wrong oil pump cover. 4 weeks later they send correct pump cover and I buy proper balancer. Once I get it running engine gets to 150 degrees and only has 15-20 psi oil pressure at 1200rpm. That's cause they didn't bush lifter bores and why it over oiled the top end. I shut it down for 1/2 hour, restart it and hear all kinds of clatter under valve cover. Pull cover and find exhaust valve locked up in the guide. I contact them and am told it was good when it left there, I said no it wasn't. Then they told me send it back and they will fix all issues for free. Im thinking I was just told it was good when it left, now they are going to fix all issues for free???? Told them they had their chance and f-ed it up. And How could an engine with 150 psi cyl pressure make 1000hp??? If Mike is so proud and sure of his engine he could buy it back. Said they cant do that. ...Personally Im tired of sinking cash into this and am going to part it out. Im scared to run it for fear it'll grenade itself and destroy bottom end. Never even made it on the trailer. Already got some one local interested in heads.

Others on here warned me about MM, but I trusted them and got shafted.

Edit....The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten

Best Machine would have made a monster for you with good post sale advise and or problem solving. Plus, their engines for the most part come out of the shop alive and ready to rumble, not on sick leave.
I always had a shaky feeling about MM just on visual and hear say at the various shows I've seen them at.

Hope they come correct at least and or buy it back being that it was an experiment on their part anyway.

I have been in contact with Best Machine and found it very enlightening. I should have used them from the get go. Obviously MM never has built a wedge headed World block with PSO heads. If they had they would have known about restricting the oil and heads needing push rod tubes. Im scared to think what else is scabbed together in the bottom end. I will check clearances when i start tearing down for parting it out.

X2 for Best Machine! They said what do you want I told them and they made it happen!
http://youtu.be/plwEN1dnv_8

Plus, BEST knows quite a lot about the PSO heads. IIRC, they built a few engines with PSO's already.

Muscle Motors is a flat out joke. I honestly don't understand anybody spending a dime with them.
Chuck Senatore used to run/ own? It years ago and did great work. Unfortunately he is long gone.
I can personally vouch for Best Machine, they built a bulletproof motor for me with never an issue from day one.
MM I wouldn't have build a lawnmower engine. They did a 30 minute" shine job" on Eddie heads for a good friend of mine few years ago and charged him for a stage two port. Car was a dog. Had them done by a professional and the car ran like it should( 12.5 to 1 408 in a Demon)

A 1000 hp pump gas engine is way off the charts in terms of what engine builders usually build. I would say that your experience is exactly what I'd expect would happen if someone called up an engine builder and told them to build a 1000 hp pump gas engine.

Muscle Motors has a King Krate 622 that makes 915 hp on pump gas so they know how to build these things. Sounds like you pushed the envelope a bit by asking for 1000 hp. Anytime you push the boundary you have to accept the R&D aspect of the project. And R&D projects rarely stay on schedule or budget.

Pump gas is a "very flexible" request. To me pump gas is 93-94 but others look at it differently.

Engine should live regardless of power expectations IMO.

Andy, I did not ask them to build me a 1000hp engine. That's what they said they could build. So I trusted them to do what they said. Their King Crate does not have the PSO heads.

I read the OP again...... He didn't say he " pushed the envelope" he said he wanted a big inch pump gas mill....... " he sold me on a 1000 horse PSO headed engine"

I for one can't let you slide misquoting what the OP said, not to mention the quality issues that have nothing to do with horsepower level... But poor machining, thought, and knowledge. Oiling issues, low cylinder pressure, promising and not delivering... Heard this tons of times from this place.... As I am sure you have.
Try again Andy... Sorry dude.

Man, I really feel for ya. Been there, too. My 1st 440, hyd roller, ported eddy heads, all 1st class parts & custom paint. Loaded it up from the engine builder's shop & took it to Mallory's dyno & produced some good numbers. Was really stoked until a friend pointed out the bolt hole in the
curved bell housing mount on the block was sheared off at the hole.
Builder says block was that way when we brought it in...
Then my bro spent a ton on a roller cammed 472 Hemi that was ready to dyno & he had a gut feeling it wasn't up to snuff after a valve tip sheared off on his 440 built by the same guy that did his Hemi. Shipped the Hemi to Arruzza & John documented enough stuff that said it wouldn't have lasted 2 minutes on the dyno. No cam button & tons of other bonehead mistakes.
John built him a killer, reliable 518 that'll fry the tires at 50.
Muscle Motors should never have taken your money if they knew they couldn't deliver or never did one before with those heads. I can imagine the bill was huge & now you've got to eat it or trust these boneheads to make it right. I'd ship it to Best & have them assess the motor & see what they can do to. Best wishes in whatever happens.

I can totally sympathize with the OP here. I'm still fing around with the Predators I have that were supposed to be done by so called pros, after many 10's of thousands of dollars. I thank the friends that helped me after the fact, but I would have been much better off ordering a GM design. I wish you good friends and better luck!

I am sorry to read this but I think you are acting too quickly to part it out. Take a break and really weigh out your options. I've been where you are, it's not fun

I agree on shipping it to Best or any shop with a very good rep building BB Mopar motors. Either way, parting it or fixing it, is not going to be cheap, but you have the basics for about as much hp as can be had on pumpgas. If you part it out, the huge loss will leave you with no big motor, and you might wind up spending the same as this one to get a decent motor done.

I agree, it shouldn't cost that much to have it re-assembled and engineered to it's potential. You will be sorry if you don't finish this project. Might as well see it through and lesson learned. The guys at Best Machine should be a good choice. If you have a local engine builder by you that has a good reputation, I would consider that too. That way you can keep an eye on the progress.

I would bring the Motor to Best Machine and have them fix it,they built me a 588 B1 PSO that made 1215 hp I have run a 7.43 @185 in a 2500 lb Daytona slipping the clutch.i run a lenco which takes power,ithink with a glide the car would go 7.35.Pete and chuck can solve your problems.good luck.

I would love to have Best go thru it. But my cash is tapped out right now. Still paying on the loan i got last April for it. Im sure Best Machine would like to see the heads since MM copied their design, and prob made them worse. So for now its either part it out or set it in the corner and look at it. It ran 30 min....That works out to $733 a minute.

I think if you part it out you'll regret it. You'll be stuck wondering "what if?"

A 1000 hp pump gas engine is an R&D project, especially a Mopar wedge one. You might be able to find a few engine builders who build BB Chevy based pump gas engines that make 1000 hp, but I doubt that there are very many (if any) Mopar (NA) wedge engines that make 1000 hp on pump gas.

I wouldn't attempt to build a 1000 hp pump gas Mopar wedge myself and I've been designing and building Mopar bb wedge motors for over 30 years. I'm surprised it only cost you $22K. My 514 dyno mule makes 930 hp with 15:1 compression and cost more than $25K. Making more horsepower with less compression on a smaller budget is hard to imagine.

If someone asked me to build them a NA Mopar wedge that made 1000 hp on pump gas I'd ask them for $30K down payment and tell them to call back in a year to see how close I was. I'm not sure it is even possible since you would need something on the order of 600 inches that make 1.7 hp/inch. It isn't easy to make 1.7 hp/inch on pump gas in a big engine. 1.7 hp/inch for a 440 is 750 hp. Not very many 750 hp 440 pump gas engines running around.

I'm building a pump gas 470 engine at the moment using some really good parts and I'm shooting for 675 hp or 1.44 hp/inch. I just can't see a reasonable way to get to 1.7 hp/inch with pump gas.

I didnt ask for a 1000 hp pump gas engine. I asked for a big CI pump gas engine. They told me thats what they can do. If it was a R&D project and not sure when it would be done they should have told me that...its that simple. According to their Land and Sea dyno it made 1004 hp. 1000 divided by 622 equals 1.6 horse per inch.So i guess it can be done. Maybe you should be telling MM this ....

Lucky you....................we get 87,89 and 91 which I drive on but would never even consider racing it that way.

Am I missing something? I didn't see a figure of 22k. If it was only going to cost 22k, I would have been sceptical from the start. I agree with Andy, you can't build anything like that for under 35k unless it's a GM deal, and even then, I'm not sure. And let's not get started an what people advertize, because that's BS almost always.

It shouldn't be impossible to get 1.7 per cube on pump. It's pretty easy with a non exotic build to do it with more compression, challenged heads, and less than ideal headers.
My old W5 motor @ 422 inches went 140@ 3220 pounds with a crude suspension, shelf tti headers, and likely a non optimal carb tune.
That should be 1.7, or mighty close, and the heads were definately too small.
Good heads for engine size, optimal headers and optimized A/ F's even with pump gas shouldn't be challenging I wouldn't think.

Much easier to get 1.7 from a smaller engine. Apples and Oranges.

I see where Scott Brown built a 496 pump gas Hemi 6 or 7 years ago that made 851 horse
1.71

It's very frustrating for me to read these posts and it's not even my engine.I was fortunate enough to learn engine building skills when I worked in a heavy equipment component room when I was 14 years old. I really don't understand why people entrust their tens of thousands of hard earned money to someone they hardly know to build a bomb like that.
Engine building is not that hard but it does take a fair amount of time and a well equipped tool box.I think some of these engine shops get behind the 8 ball and with too many irons in the fire and hurry the builds and the customer gets something that hasn't been completely inspected.
Gus

I see where Scott Brown built a 496 pump gas Hemi 6 or 7 years ago that made 851 horse
1.71

600ci is still apple and oranges to a 496ci.

I think if we talked to enough people we will find horror stories coming from many engine builders.

Was that on a dyno or track proven numbers... I dont have a
lot of faith in dyos lately.. I would really doubt that the
OP engine made 1004 hp on MM dyno... we have seen other engines
that came off that dyno and the numbers were NO WHERE NEAR what
the track showed

The fact that you took out a loan for an engine is big mistake. The engine builder knows the buyer is tapped out so any unforseen costs get ate by the builder (and ther ARE unforseen costs on ANY build).

You are better off putting it in the corner, sitting on it until you are finacially able to fix it correctly (I would figure 10k minimum) and then finish the project.

I know it's a bitter pill but it is what it is.

Shame on Muscle Motors for bidding WAY too low on an engine like that. I would like to hear their side of the story.


A good friend told me decades ago this little phrase. It has proven true many times. It goes like this: race you wage.

Best of luck to you.

Lol..... You don't have to convince me to not believe anything they say.

Steve...Like I told you before, I'm very sorry for what you've gone through, but you're better off sitting on it and having it fixed by someone professional when you have the financial means to do so.
I'd suggest Dwayne Porter at Porter Racing Heads or Todd Marsh at Marsh Performance.

I'm pretty sure Tig's 600+ inch motor that Todd Marsh built for him made well over 1000 hp on pump gas.
I don't see it as impossible at all. My 572 hemi is pretty mild and makes over 800 hp N/A on pump 93 (140 mph at 3800+ lbs.). With a much more aggressive cam, bigger heads, and a tunnelram w/ a pair of dominators...I feel pretty confident it could make 4 digit power. I decided to leave the motor mild and spray it into 4 digit territory. My last outing proved it to be making around 1080 hp w/ a very mild tune up.

I would like MM to tell their side too. The loan was in my budget. Just wasn't planning taking out another to make engine useable.

This isn't a thread about how much the engine cost or how much hp/ci it can make. Honestly I wasn't expecting it to make 1000. Regardless of price what I was expecting was an engine that was assembled properly: Clearances checked, good oil control, good oil psi, good cylinder psi. At least it would be a solid foundation to build upon. Ive raced almost 40 yrs and never had a valve lock up in the guide.

Scott built me 2 engines. The 1st one was ready to rock right outta the crate. The 2nd one needed a little work done to it.

I agree 100%. Basic machining procedures are not hard to follow, regardless of brand (contrary to popular belief, the engine does not know what brand it is).

What is remarkable is the fact that certain technology trickles down from Pro Stock and Comp and some engine builders want to incorporate that crap into bracket engines. While most builders shy away from tunnel rams, roller cam bearings, 1200 plus pound valve springs, aluminum rods and rings with no tension they are quick to adapt incredibly tight tolerances and things of that nature. Not considering that PS has coated everything, impressive oil control and relatively short strokes.

It seems if you stuck a valve I would want to measure the ones that didn't stick. Slow timing is a guaranteed stuck valve even with .005 clearance on it. I would also want to measure the bearing clearances as well. Long stroke/short rod combos tend to make the crank flex and bend (Dart is working on LS blocks with bigger mains to increase overlap to stop some of the flexing issue) and maybe MM thought more clearance was appropriate for you application.

Also as a last thought......guys trying to run what I consider low oil pressure are doing the most damage to roller lifters, scuffing pushrods and grabbing bearings. I would rather have 50 at idle than 20. But that is me.

I think keep what you have, take some time off and regroup. this kind of thing is as bad for our hobby as is unavailable parts and crooked suppliers. Trust your gut. Most times it's right.

LOL! I've said the exact same thing about MM. Some of the worst quality work I've ever seen. We sent everything back.

Sometimes engines DO care what brand they are... a strictly chevy guy may not be familiar with chryslers core shift problems (probably why I have a 318 block in here with a 4.070 bore), or a ford guy messing with a chevy or dodge with siamese ex ports and the way the heat can build up there, or oiling differences are vast between different engines and can be very critical, or a dodge guy wondering why the heck chevy BBs have good ports and bad ports (one dumps in the middle of the cylinder and one dumps into the cylinder wall) and the best way to cam around it... thats just a few examples I can think of and I am just a little peon engine builder, there are tons of different engines that do have little quirks that a specialist engine builder may know where a "build everything" guy could not possibly know them all, he may build an adequate engine but a specialist should be able to wring a tad more and probably cheaper. Think you should take your SB mopar to John Kass? Or 351 windsor to Ray Barton? Those guys have incredible mad skills but probably better people out there for those engines.

I had a former engine builder that had
"Speed costs money...how fast do you want to go??"
Make no mistake...he meant it...

Kaase or Barton could build anything for me anytime. The engine has no idea what name is on the valve cover.

Who doesn't know that BBC intake ports are different? I knew that the first time I looked at one in 1978.

It's plain silly to think that quality machining and engine building is dependent on brand name. The ENGINE HAS NO IDEA WHAT NAME IS ON THE VALVE COVER.

The fastest engines I've had built were built by a guy that runs GM stuff. He doesn't run it because he likes it necessarily, he runs it because it's fast and cheaper than Mopar stuff, and he builds a lot of the Mopars too. Oh, and he know's they're all just air pumps!

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1622793/1.html

Top of the mountain

Since when do customers pay for someone else's R&D?

Either a shop can deliver what's promised at a agreed price, or they can't.

Ask Dave Dudek, or Charlie Westcott about 'nuances'...



Choose wisely, your next 'builder', grasshopper...

I agree with Tig. Todd@ Marsh performance is as honest as they come and builds nice stuff.

Isn't Mike from MM on this board?

he was.... hasn't posted since 11-14

In 1978 my dad bought a Prototype Racing engine 331ci for his circle track car that was dyno @ 585 HP @ 8500rpm, car was fast, now today the same size engines are going the same speeds and times around the track but are claiming the engines are making 750-800 + HP lol

Thanks streetwize...

I dont consider this engine an R&D experiment. They offer a pumpgas 622 with Brodix heads on their site. They also have a story on their site about building a set of PSO heads for a customer with a dragster. So they have built engines using World blocks. They have built pumpgas 622's. They have built PSO heads.

Happens all the time. When I learn new thing I incorporate them into the next opportunity I have. If that didn't happen, we'd all still be doing 3 angle valve jobs with a stone (for just one small example).

Economics 101: the CUSTOMERS pays it all, no matter what. Taxes go up, the customer eats it. Costs go up, the customer eats it. R&D time is no different either.

And, not to bash the OP here (because that is NOT my intent) we do not know how many times a customer changes his mind during a build. Some of the most costly engines I have done have been a customer who is like a fart in a skillet. Constantly going on the web, getting the new trick of the week part or procedure and wanting to change something in mid stream. That costs big money and lots of time.

That's all well and good. But it has nothing to do with the machining errors and lack of attention to detail assembling the engine. No matter the engine, paying a professional should result in professional results. Not backyard mistakes

I 100% agree and did, infact, post that very same thing several posts ago.

Nothing was changed or added to the build. ...Wait a minute. I did ask for a vacuum pump fitting be put on drivers side valve cover.

Just for fun...was the vaccuum pump included in the original discussions or did the pump come in later.

Not doing anything but trying to get background information.

Personally, I think MOPAR guys believing that a MOPAR shop HAS to build, or knows more about MOPAR motors, is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Sorry to sound harsh, but a motor is simply an air pump and that does NOT change based on what the valve covers say it is. All the MOPARs has "nuances" stuff is a bunch of crap. Power is power and you know how to make it or you don't. Proper machining is proper machining and you can do it or you can't. Period, end of story.

Wescott is a prime example. LONG time Chevy guy and was immediately a top player with a HEMI. Why, because he KNOWS how to make power and how the pump works.

And look at it this way, if your primary business is wedge Mopars, lets face it, you have been exposed to NO cutting edge stuff in years. So what have you learned about making power. On the other hand, if you build EVERYTHING, you see what is out there and what works. Then you try and apply what you learn to other makes.MM works on everything by the way

And dyno numbers are just that, numbers. Correction factors can be incorporated to make that sheet say whatever you want it to. I am with Andy...........a 1000hp, pump gas, Mopar wedge.......that's a TALL order. And guys can claim they have whatever, but me personally, have NEVER seen one of these "1000 hp pump gas" deals perform like that is what it has for power. MPH doesn't lie........dyno sheets do

And no way I would "part the motor out".........you will get .25 cents on the dollar that way. Probably a simple fix. Set it aside until you can have someone look at it

Yes it was included in original discussion. It was my fault for not telling them which valve cover i needed it on. ...They charged me an extra $150 to weld it in too.

You are probably correct on the simple fix thing Monte, I just threw the 10k number out there because evidently, the OP says the whole thing is [censored] and needs to be fixed. So I ASSume the cam is wrong, all the machining needs corrected and things like that.

The OP will most certainly make it WAY more painful parting it out.

I am going to ask my engine if it knows what brand it is. If it does, I guess I need to find a MoPar guru to finish it because I'm not a qualified MoPar expert.

BTW, it is an impossiblibilty for a dyno to lie. Dyno's do not lie. Flow benches do not lie. It is the CROOKS that run them who lie. I HATE liars.

There is NO EXCUSE in this day and age why you can't get on the phone and learn enough to know that a 1k PG MoPar is a damn big cat to skin. And, while your bullet is on the pump, the customer SHOULD be standing there watching and learning. And ask every question that comes to mind. If the question is not answered to your satisfaction, ask it again. If the builder can't answer it, you can figure you are getting a big ten inch (lie).

Madscientist, your right. It is a big cat to skin. Like I said earlier, I didn't expect it to make the number. I did expect it to last longer than 30 min, correct cylinder psi and good oil psi. Just remembered, I was told static comp came in at 12:1 with 150psi cylinder pressure.

Mr Edwards contacted us about a pump gas shortblock. We had a World block in inventory so we offer to build him a King Krate (at normal pricing) with an upgraded crankshaft. We then offered him (if he was interested) in a set of PSO heads that we were developing. Based on the early flow numbers we anticipated an engine that could make 1000 HP on pump gas. Because it was a development deal we offered him the top half of the engine at cost over a set of original B1 heads. We would also dyno the engine for free. The value of this extra work is approximately $7000
Because the top half of the engine was at cost it was not #1 priority to finish. The engine was on and off the dyno a few times and we had made over 15 dyno pulls with no valve train issues.
Mr Edwards contacted us and said that the engine had been idleing for a long time a grabbed a valve. Because of the inconvience and delays I had eric send this e-mail
On Monday, June 1, 2015 5:31 PM, Eric Budden <ericbudden@yahoo.com> wrote:

Please let me know when the engine is in the crate and ready for pick-up. Mike figures turnaround time to be 2 weeks. Please forward any areas of concern other than bushing the lifter bores.

Thanks

Eric@M/M
After a day of no response I sent this e-mail.
It the adjuster is tight where did the extra play come from?

I had Eric contact you and offer for us to have the engine picked up. We have the BHJ fixture and can bush the block immediately. We would address any other concerns you may have and return it to you all at no cost.

Let me know your thoughts.

Mike @MM

Yes, there have been issues. Should there have been, no. Still we offered to stand behind it, bring the engine back, address any and all concerns, give an exact timeline for repairs and return it at no cost. Mr Edward s has refused this offer.

I've been in his shoes, there is a HUGE part of the customer that is scared to send it back to the shop that murdered it the first time around. I'm not saying who's right or wrong but its important to consider the emotions involved here.

The "low priority for at cost parts" thing is BS, nobody put a gun to your head you offered that. Shouldn't penalize the customer based on your offer.

Good job Mike...........sounds as though you are willing to handle the issues, as I suspected you would if it came to it. Always the OTHER side of the story. Can't imagine why he is not willing to let you fix the issues, as it appears he will be out no money to do so. Hope you guys work it out and everybody is happy



Monte

This clears up some of it, as was pointed out by camastomcat and Monte (and others) 22k is on the light side for something of that nature.

As for the stuck vale, I know of 3 issues that can cause it. Obviously, one of them is too little clearance. Closely related to that is when a supplier changes materiel and it requires more clearance than the SAME part number did before. Some brands of guide that I use/have used get no less the .0025 on the intake and .0035 on the exhaust. I always hone bronze guides as reaming them is a PITA, and sometimes they are not very round. The third thing is a common one that comes around from time to time. It's caused by myth and old wives tales. When starting an engine, I would rather see too much timing than not enough. To some, that is counter intuative. They think you need to "break in" an engine so dial everything down and back, when in reality, the only thing that needs a break in period is a HFT or SFT cam. Anything else is bull crap.

When you run the timing retarded, the EGT's go through the roof. Then the valve has to deal with all the heat. When it can't, the stem grows larger than the clearance and it grabs a guide. It won't matter if it has .005 on it.

As for the oil pressure issue, the OP has not yet stated what the oil pressure is, what filter he used or the brand and grade of oil.

If you did what you say you did, and your offer stands, then the rest of it is on the OP. I would like to see stem diameters, guide diameters, crank dimensions and housing bore measurements posted. If the numbers are posted the math is simple enough but I would think .0028-.0032 on the rods (ASSuming Chrysler rod throws...take about .0003 off for BBC throws) and .0035-.0035 on the mains. Much tighter than that and you can grab a bearing. Tha is, of course, my opinon. Others may think otherwise.

Who says it was murdered? That's not right. It stuck a valve and the OP says the oil pressure is low.

Time to put on our big boy pants and take emotion out of it.

It's possible the stuck valve was customer induced. And if I'm doing something at cost, and doing the R&D on it, I damn sure ain't moving your stuff to the front while profit making customers wait. MM is in business to MAKE MONEY. This isn't a hobby. It's not fun. It is work.

As I said earlier and will do so again ALL R&D IS PAID FOR BY THE CUSTOMER. One way or the other. The only people who give away free crap is the government, and that is because they took it from someone else first.

I like the way you think man..................

it could be one bad a$$ 87 octane motor when fixed

Ask MM for the dimensions and clearances.

If Muscle Motors is willing to stand behind the problem that the OP thinks he has I can't think of any reason not to have them go through the engine again. What's he got to loose, he's not doing anything with the engine anyway. It's not like he gave them a special engine that went to a rare car that can't be replaced. It was a pieced together POS or was that pso.

If i did send it to them they would find something to charge me for and if i dont pay they got the engine...thats what i have to lose. And i dont know if what they repair would be the right way.

So basically you are unwilling to give them a chance t make things right at all based on past dealings. We have to respect your opinion on that. But you are assuming they will hold the engine for "ransom" to bilk you for more money. I can also understand why you want a "refund" but in this business that is pie in the sky thinking honestly. Not saying you were not treated correctly but not allowing them to fix the situation when they apparently have offered IMO is a mistake.

As for using a "mopoar" shop thing, this is something I will NEVER understand. Round is round, square is square. Any GOOD shop can produce a quality power making piece, it is not about the make it is about knowledge. I for one have seen some stuff from "mopar" shops that was not done very well at all. Personally I use the best I can afford to do my stuff.

I understand what your saying but, they had their "chance." My decision is not solely based on MY experience but ALL the others who have told me nightmare stories from MM. Havent heard one bad story about Best Machine though. Heres my offer, I will have it repaired locally and MM can reimburse me.

I can tell you that I wouldn't refund the money either. And I wouldn't pay you to have someone else go through it. I say that because most engine builders think their [censored] don't stink and their way is the only way. Doesn't make MM right or wrong. It's hard for me to believe that MM is as incompetent as is portrayed here. That would mean that the guys at MM can't even read a micrometer. I don't even think that for a nano second. You keep saying that the oil pressure was low. What was the oil pressure? What oil and grade did MM use on the dyno? Did you ask them what oil to run? What oil and filter did you use, as that has a huge effect on pressure.

As for the stuck valve, that can happen to anyone. I find it hard to believe that MM didn't size the guides. I would suspect a slow timing issue.

I couldn't care less what MM says the clearances are. You seem like a pretty sharp guy. Take it apart and measure them yourself. Then post what you have. Unless you have the correct dial bore gauge it will be hard to measure the ID of the guide but some shop near you could do that.

MM has already publically stated they would fix it for free. Print a copy and let them fix it. If they hold the engine for ransom you would have an easy court case.

EDIT: just re-read the OP and he is saying 15-20 psi oil pressure at 1200 RPM. To some, that is not low. For me, it's too low.But that still doesn't say if the oil was too thin or the oil filter was junk. Both of those will cause low oil pressure.

I understand your apprehension, But Id give them one more chance. Im sure they will get it right this time, their in the spotlight. Get it in writing that they wont hold your motor hostage for more money, unless its something YOU want to add.

JMO , and I also understand your frustation at this point. We all want it done right the first time, but that doesn't always happen with any shop IMO. These engines can all have their issues, from any shop.

Letting them fix it is Your best bet, IMO

Well trust me I have seen bad stuff from all of the shops listed here. Don't feel that ANYONE is immune believe me. Having been in and around the business for a long time you are not gonna find anyone that will pay for someone else to "repair" the motor and likely will not find many that would be willing to refund the money either. Most people and courts would see the offer being made by the builder and would leave the ball in your court. Don't get me wrong I understand your frustration and frankly can see you did not have a ton of experience at this kind of thing. As pointed out $21Kis dirt cheap for something like that. I usually have in excess of that in parts for something that will make 4 digit power. Juts saying not trying to bash at all

BTW and way off topic but been in North Carolina this week and seems like a nice state to be from. Been downing Cheerwine as fast as I can find it

You never know until you get a look at it when they come back. I know of another big name shop--sent out a $30K Mopar that dynoed like a champ! Customer complains about this and that poor ET etc--the old--"It just don't run like it should" Builder pays to get it back--AFTER over a year of phone work etc--engine comes in and on teardown--
Thrust ate out of it from converter hub and issues, pushrods bent, on and on and on--a half dozen UN-related issues all done at intervels over the months--None ever addressed--just kept on running it down the strip and complaining.
That customer had zero idea about a race car, race engine, or any other thing--they were clueless--so....that unit will not be repaired until customer agrees to pay in full for not knowing what the heck he was doing and damaging a truly great unit.
The kicker was that the throttle "linkage" only opened the blades about half way--good speed secret there
So.....It ain't always the builder boys and...it ain't always the customer either but.....every tale spread out online in a way as this is always fishy to me--NOT the way to handle issues.
I have always aimed to do right but if ever the issues are flashed online like this I usually just walk away.
I bet MM will take another swipe at it --but that making promises before looking at it is a non starter for our shop. Retarded timing at fire up is an engine KILLER

If i did send it to them they would find something to charge me for and if i dont pay they got the engine...thats what i have to lose. And i dont know if what they repair would be the right way.

X2
Seen this happen with cars and bikes for 50 years.
Not addressing MM specifically, but in the past once a shop has the engine back, the clock stops - it won't get any work unless they stop booking new work - the same reason it didn't get done on time. They'll find something wrong that's your fault and you have to ransom the engine back.

I noticed that MM's remarks didn't address all the issues you raised - like 150 psi at 12:1 CR...

It's a shame that bad news travel so fast when there are so many variables in performance motors. I would buy it and have it fixed if I didn't have so many motors already. I have a hemi built by Muscle motor and a wedge built by Best machine and a couple of others that are all good motors. Things can happen to any of these motor due to the variables. Most the time with any of these reputable builder they are fine when the leave. I would sure HATE to be a builder and have somebody put a motor in their car with the issues that can arise like oil, filter, timing, fuel, fuel systems, crank thrust from spacing the convertor wrong and so on!

Guess the point is the motor had less oil pressure than you think it should have, but was that something talked about during the build? I agree I might want a bit more but that does not mean necessarily it is bad. I do agree the valve issue certainly needs fixing, should not have happened but perhaps it is something that got overlooked, or could be a parts issue. Assuming you have not had it torn down to determine the exact cause of course, as I did not see that it had been. But you yourself admit you have not run it at all much really, and while we can all speculate and be skeptical about the power numbers is made you do not have anything to show different. Just trying to play a little devils advocate here..

All I want is for Mr. Edwards to be enjoying his car. That being said, you don't buy something from Home Depot, have an issue and take it to Lowes to have it fixed and send Home Depot the bill. Obviously We are under a micro scope and it is in our best interest to bring this situation to a speedy conclusion. For the record: I, Michael Ware, owner of Muscle Motors will bring the engine back here, replace the bent valve, verify and adjust guide clearance if necessary.

I suspect that the lifters may have excessive clearance causieng the low oil pressure at idle. We will completely disassemble the engine and using a BHJ fixture install lifter bushings and hone for correct sizing again no charge. Mr Edwards also wanted a different type of retainer, We will change those at no cost to Mr Edwards. We will then have the engine shipped back to Mr Edwards and we will absorb the shipping charges. I believe this a fair and amicable offer.

At a boy Mike !
Tell Eric thanks for the service last week on pushrods springs and oil pump !

Sounds fair.

I have no dog in this fight at all but I don't know what else Mike and MM can do to try and make this right honestly.

Yep, that offer is more then fair and should be taken up. Great offer Mike. Don't know what else you can do. Mr Edwards, Id take it if I were you.

More than fair.

More than fair offer. Just do it and get on with enjoying your engine.

I definately sympathize with the OP feeling uncomfortable with sending the motor back to someone who displayed shoddy workmanship and created the problem in the first place.
It's always much more respectable to do the right thing the first time, until having to when peer pressure forces your hand.
Kinda like having a dentist appointment to get a tooth pulled that is bad and they pull the wrong one, novocaine wears off at home and you notice you still have the toothache......
You probably go to another dentist next time.

Now that is what I call standing up. Way to go Mike. If the op doesn't take that offer, hate to say it, he is an a-hole.

I agree plus your not talking about a couple bucks here. That is a lot of money in my book for it not to be done correctly the first time. Trust is a major issue here from what I see.

well they did a predator head motor for me that couldn't fall out of a tree. the back yard mechanic of me tore it down and found the valves hitting the pistons and the pistons hitting the head. after alot of help from boat racer I had some one else notch the pistons and cutting them for clearance on the head. put it back together myself and it picked up 6 miles an hour in the 1/8. mike offered for me to send it back but after everything I had been through just to get it hell no they had there chance. I had bought a ton of stuff through them before this.

I know what ur sayin. Not makin excuses, everyone makes mistakes. I bet engine builders on this site make mistakes too. The main thing is makin it right. I have been building Allison transmissions for 17 yrs & sometimes catch myself goofing up. Chit happens.

There is not an engine builder alive, that hasn't at one time or another, let something slip through the cracks........... So let them fix it for free and move on, or don't, then take a huge loss parting it out, or PAY someone else to fix it. Seems to be your choices. I think I would try the FREE one first.

Stuff happens. I built a motor for a member on this board. Took me WAY too long to get it done, but when it was, I ran it on the dyno and it make good power, was sealed up good, made good vacumn, no blowby. He gets it in the car, makes a few passes and it is oiling a plug....BAD. Checks the usual things, so we narrow it to the rings. I send him some rings for that hole, puts it back together, no change. Now by this time, he is pretty darned upset with me. I offered to have it shipped down at my cost and have a look, but he elects to have somebody else look at it. I tell him, if it is something I did wrong, we will TALK about the bill, but I won't guarantee anything...........Well turns out the head developed a crack where it was ported so thin, by another VERY well known and VERY respected Mopar guy on a previous build and was oiling the cylinder. So as I said, ANYTHING can happen to ANYBODY.

Money no object.... I "might" consider taking it somewhere else, but reading the post from Mike, I'd send it back his way. Two things he has to gain: you being happy, and him showing MM customer service. I'm betting there will be very well documented data before it leaves there. I would have been ecstatic if that old small block mopar "guru" would have addressed my leaky ported W5 head after the second time it leaked when he "repaired" it. He77, I didn't even lay blame as I knew/heard all the prospective issues on those heads..... but suddenly I couldn't get ahold of him anymore and no calls ever returned. Hope you give them a shot.

....and when I sold 30 years of mopar crap to subsidize my R3/W8 build, I was very comfortable with putting it in hands that had previous experience with those pieces. I certainly wasn't there to reinvent the wheel.

Mike, Im very apprehensive about this but I will give your offer some thought. If you bush lifter bores it will also require diff pushrods without restricters. I would also like to know how you will address the low cylinder pressure issue. My thinking is to spec out a custom cam. I've used Scott Brown before and know he's really good at pump gas cams.

No worse than selling someone a car that is not 100% to their expectations. You offer for them to bring it back so you can determine what the issues are and they have already decided the trust is not there.

I'm not sure why you seem so concerned about the cylinder pressure issue. Not sure where you think it needs to be, but this is a big motor, with a very efficient head, that is going to run on pump gas. Lots of pumping pounds will NOT be your friend

Then you're continuing to be part of the problem, not the solution. The owner of the shop has agreed to fix the issues at his cost, and I'm sorry...but it doesn't get any better than that. Guess what? EVERY engine builder has had something not turn out they way they wanted. It take a true, dedicated business man to stand behind his build which is appears what's going on here. Put your man-pants on and WORK WITH THE OFFER TO FIND THE SOLUTION. Better than bashing a well established shop who HAS OFFERED TO FIX IT.

PS: Being that you're NOT an engine builder why do you care about cylinder pressure as long as it's a solid motor and makes the power?? Sounds like you're continuing to LOOK FOR "issues". If "your thinking is to spec a custom cam", then maybe you should have "been thinking" to build it yourself. Right?

I agree

If I were steve660, I'd bring this public discussion to a close, and deal with MM on a one to one basis. There's nothing more to be gained by playing out this saga publicly.

I originally posted to send it to Best or another Mopar shop, but after reading Mikes response you have to give him a chance to fix it. This is his bread and butter hear, not some used car deal that went sour. Also diagnosing what is wrong with a big project like this isn't easy. There may be many things a novice misses that an experienced engine builder would know. As far as the time line, a custom engine is always going to be hard to deliver on time, and almost never on budget. OP, good luck with this deal, and I hope it turns out the best for both.

You have nothing to lose in sending it back at this point. The laundry has been aired and if the results aren't right everyone will know. I'm sure Mike will take extra care to make sure it goes out right this time. If it does'nt it's obvious to him he will lose some future business.

I agree 100%. He threw a very nice offer out there in writing for all to see. Go for it.

There's not too many shops in this day and age who will make the offer that's been given.
It's ultimately your decision alone...but I personally have never thought that "burning bridges" is a good message to send to the next shop you may want to work with...

I will give MM the opportunity to make things right. Once I get it back I will let everyone know the results.

As far as the comments regarding cylinder pressure goes, Mike is the one that told me that 150 was lower than what he anticipated. That's why I mentioned it.

Good decision on your part. Give them the same shot you would expect if you made a mistake.

BTW...did MM provide a build sheet with the engine? If so, it would have all the measurements and dimensions on it.

Just curious.

Mazel-Tov.

PM SENT......

that depends on how long he takes to get his motor back to him and if he tries any additional charges and how well he takes care of the issues. this could turn into another motor prison...