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Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: Supercuda] #1851486
06/18/15 12:06 AM
06/18/15 12:06 AM
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So Cal
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Originally Posted By Supercuda
A point or two is not 91 octane to 92 or 93 octane.

It's 91 octane to 91.2 or 91.3 octane. That's the "point" as in point two or point three octane.

But yes, MMT works better than petroleum distillates, much better, but not as good as TEL.


iagree

Also, the base gas being added to can vary it's effectiveness. And other outside factors.

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: 62maxwgn] #1851508
06/18/15 12:20 AM
06/18/15 12:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,544
omotive Engineer.
Golden-Arm Offline
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Originally Posted By 62maxwgn
Originally Posted By Golden-Arm
i get 100 octane avgas from my local airport, for (current price) $4.45 per gallon. grab a tank of that, and see how you do. avgas is a hell of a lot cheaper than race gas is. up


Airport is 10 mi away,been running it since 1992 !! up


mine is 1/2 mile away, and even has "pay at the pump". been using it since 2000. biggrin


"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852102
06/18/15 09:16 PM
06/18/15 09:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,435
Oklahoma City OK
Cudajon Offline
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Oklahoma City OK
This talk about avgas is very interesting and also illegal to run in your car by federal law. Thats why most airports wont sell it to you. We ran it all the time in the dirt track cars I built engines for. We bought in in 55 gallon barrels and claimed it was for crop dusters. We found by adding a quart of auto transmission fluid to 15 gallons we replaced the top end lubricant that avgas doesn't have. Don't know if that last part was true but it didn't hurt either.

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: Golden-Arm] #1852121
06/18/15 09:36 PM
06/18/15 09:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,252
Kirkland, Washington
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Kirkland, Washington
Originally Posted By Golden-Arm
Originally Posted By 62maxwgn
Originally Posted By Golden-Arm
i get 100 octane avgas from my local airport, for (current price) $4.45 per gallon. grab a tank of that, and see how you do. avgas is a hell of a lot cheaper than race gas is. up


Airport is 10 mi away,been running it since 1992 !! up


mine is 1/2 mile away, and even has "pay at the pump". been using it since 2000. biggrin


If the Avgas you guys are buying is dyed (because it's taxed at a much lower rate than street fuel) be careful.
The federal government (and possibly your state too) will levy fines that you wouldn't believe.

The diesel boys are well aware of this.
Say you have a diesel truck on the road and you are caught with red dyed diesel (accident or mechanic turns you in). Say this truck has 150,000 miles on it. Say it gets 20 mpg (the Gov/IRS will use published estimates) that means it's consumed 7,500 gallons of fuel.
Say the fed and state taxes added together are $0.50 per gallon. That's $3750 in tax evasion.

Now double that....(think repaying the Gov AND a penalty). Fine is $7,500.
And now you face criminal charges for easy to prove tax evasion.

Al Capone died in prison (syphllis) because of tax evasion--it was the easiest thing to nail him on.

Just sayin

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: Supercuda] #1852203
06/18/15 11:06 PM
06/18/15 11:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 727
Ottawa, ontario
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dd340 Offline
super stock
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Ottawa, ontario
Originally Posted By Supercuda
A point or two is not 91 octane to 92 or 93 octane.

It's 91 octane to 91.2 or 91.3 octane. That's the "point" as in point two or point three octane.

But yes, MMT works better than petroleum distillates, much better, but not as good as TEL.


Not the case, MMT can raise octane by a full point or 2 from 91 up to 92 or 93. Not from 91 to 91.1. MMT may not be the best for your engine or catalytic converter but absolutely can raise octane by a reasonable amount.

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852204
06/18/15 11:06 PM
06/18/15 11:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,332
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie Offline
top fuel
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Ball Ground, Georgia
Avgas is tricky like that. Don't pull up in your car and fill the tank. Luckily I have a place that sells 110 racing fuel close by. As one of the guys above said, you don't always hear the detonation. I lost an engine in my 04 Ram that way. So, if you need some sweet stuff put it in there! Don't risk engine failure.

You can do lots of research about boosters online. Lots of choices with the inhibiting factors being cost and availability. Anyone ever hear of the old school putting moth balls in your tank for an octane boost? Be sure and put it in cheesecloth or something or the fragment could stop up your sending unit. Racing fuel is your best bet and it smells soooo sweet!

cjskotni let us know if the stuff you bought makes the pinging go away. I know it's an unscientific test, but I'd be curious as to your opinion.


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Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: dd340] #1852253
06/19/15 12:18 AM
06/19/15 12:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Originally Posted By dd340
Originally Posted By Supercuda
A point or two is not 91 octane to 92 or 93 octane.

It's 91 octane to 91.2 or 91.3 octane. That's the "point" as in point two or point three octane.

But yes, MMT works better than petroleum distillates, much better, but not as good as TEL.


Not the case, MMT can raise octane by a full point or 2 from 91 up to 92 or 93. Not from 91 to 91.1. MMT may not be the best for your engine or catalytic converter but absolutely can raise octane by a reasonable amount.


From NOS' site http://nosperformancechemicals.com/

"NOS performance for the serious racing enthusiast. Developed to increase octane effect up to 31 points or 3.1 full octane numbers. Blended with MMT and our performance enhancing Powertane, along with Nitro Methane and unique lubricants."

31 points is 3.1 octane, just like I said. A "point" is .1 octane.

Lucas' site says the same thing

http://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_Octane-Booster.pdf

But they make no claim on how much it'll raise octane that I can find.

So when someone claims an octane booster raises octane a point or two it is .1 or .2 octane.

About a decade ago, for my own edification, I did a study of the cost effectiveness of octane boosters and at that time it was cheaper to buy higher octane gas than to boost lower octane gas up, regardless of booster used. For example, it was cheaper to buy 89 octane gas rather than 87 and put in enough octane boost to get it up to 89.

I do not recall if MMT was in my list of boosters checked though. I can tell you that ethanol, methanol, toluene, acetone, MEK, etc were.

Example NOS booster is $18.94 via Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/12010-Racing-Formula-Octane-Booster/dp/B000HBIA1I

Treats 16 gallons, minimum. I assume 16 gallons gives you 3.1 octane, more gallons less effect.

That's a $1.18 a gallon for 3.1 more octane.

Super isn't $1.18 more a gallon so unless super ain't doing it for you it's cheaper to run super. Now if you are running super and it's not doing it for you then yeah NOS might be enough to fix that. I know my old 413 was finicky about who's super I ran in it and when I had no choice but to run an off brand super I'd dump a bottle of octane boost in as insurance. But it was easier and cheaper to just fill up with Shell super unleaded which it liked.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: Supercuda] #1852339
06/19/15 02:09 AM
06/19/15 02:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 35,937
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Lincoln Nebraska
I would highly suggest not going to a wilder cam to deal with detonation. One of our left coast members either Mick or Frankeduster (iirc) way back had a nightmare going that route till he finally lowered the SCR & took care of it properly (unless a person wants to proportion in some av or race gas (good material/info on that here!). Here one gas stn has "Sunoco unleaded 100 octane, 110 leaded, 112 octane" quote/unquote their ad. In 55 gal drums I am assuming (never been there). At the airport We used to be able to drive out on the tarmac & get filled from the tanker but they stopped that


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: RapidRobert] #1852406
06/19/15 09:12 AM
06/19/15 09:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni Offline OP
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North Carolina
Quote:
Super isn't $1.18 more a gallon so unless super ain't doing it for you it's cheaper to run super.


This is with running super pump gas 93 octane from Mobile 1.

My cam is very mild for my application. It is a comp cams 21-223-4 which is advertised with a stock stroke to have a power band of 1600-5800RPM's. I already have .055" head gaskets and Eddy aluminum heads. I don't know what else I can do to get the SCR down besides changing pistons which I ain't going there.

I know many here have gotten 10.4:1 stroker motors with aluminum heads to work fine on premium pump. I would think maybe this mild cam is hurting a bit here as it can't "bleed" off that compression very well...

I was thinking of going to a roller setup eventually to pull a bit more from the motor and make it a bit more resilient with modern oil. I just wanted to get the car running reliably for awhile before I went back into the motor. I have spent the better part of two years since I sprung the car from body shop Hades, chasing vapor lock and other various issues.

I know this can be done without changing the rotating assembly, using race gas, methanol, etc. I think the only thing left here is the cam.

Quote:
One of our left coast members either Mick or Frankeduster (iirc) way back had a nightmare going that route


Yes, I remember that saga last year? I seem to remember he was running iron heads though and started off with considerably more cam than I currently have. Yes, I think about poor Frankenduster whenever I think about going to another cam shaft. :laughs:


When I had my car dyno'ed the guy said the engine wanted more cam for sure. He said I'm probably leaving 80-100 crank hp on the table with my mild flat tappet cam vs. a roller. The car otherwise has the drivetrain that would like more cam (2400 stall, 3.55 gear, hi compression motor).

Bottom line is I'd rather shell out for a better camshaft and upgrade the engine than be a slave to race gas. I have done some calling around and the closest place that sells race gas is 25 miles and through congested areas. I'd burn half a tank of gas to get there and back. If I had a source of race gas (or even non-ethanol premium) within 10 miles, I'd suck it up. I have been looking at getting pails shipped and at $60-70 for 5 gallons + ship, I think I'd rather save my $$ for the cam swap...if that will fix this problem for good.

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852414
06/19/15 10:18 AM
06/19/15 10:18 AM
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Posts: 81
Alberta
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NEVjr Offline
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Alberta
might see if you can use a thicker head gasket, help knock down the compression a touch

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852464
06/19/15 12:22 PM
06/19/15 12:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,748
So Cal
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Originally Posted By cjskotni
Quote:
Super isn't $1.18 more a gallon so unless super ain't doing it for you it's cheaper to run super.


This is with running super pump gas 93 octane from Mobile 1.

My cam is very mild for my application. It is a comp cams 21-223-4 which is advertised with a stock stroke to have a power band of 1600-5800RPM's. I already have .055" head gaskets and Eddy aluminum heads. I don't know what else I can do to get the SCR down besides changing pistons which I ain't going there.

I know many here have gotten 10.4:1 stroker motors with aluminum heads to work fine on premium pump. I would think maybe this mild cam is hurting a bit here as it can't "bleed" off that compression very well...

I was thinking of going to a roller setup eventually to pull a bit more from the motor and make it a bit more resilient with modern oil. I just wanted to get the car running reliably for awhile before I went back into the motor. I have spent the better part of two years since I sprung the car from body shop Hades, chasing vapor lock and other various issues.

I know this can be done without changing the rotating assembly, using race gas, methanol, etc. I think the only thing left here is the cam.

Quote:
One of our left coast members either Mick or Frankeduster (iirc) way back had a nightmare going that route


Yes, I remember that saga last year? I seem to remember he was running iron heads though and started off with considerably more cam than I currently have. Yes, I think about poor Frankenduster whenever I think about going to another cam shaft. :laughs:


When I had my car dyno'ed the guy said the engine wanted more cam for sure. He said I'm probably leaving 80-100 crank hp on the table with my mild flat tappet cam vs. a roller. The car otherwise has the drivetrain that would like more cam (2400 stall, 3.55 gear, hi compression motor).

Bottom line is I'd rather shell out for a better camshaft and upgrade the engine than be a slave to race gas. I have done some calling around and the closest place that sells race gas is 25 miles and through congested areas. I'd burn half a tank of gas to get there and back. If I had a source of race gas (or even non-ethanol premium) within 10 miles, I'd suck it up. I have been looking at getting pails shipped and at $60-70 for 5 gallons + ship, I think I'd rather save my $$ for the cam swap...if that will fix this problem for good.


Who talked you into running that much compression?

"a better camshaft"... It's not that your cam is bad or good. It's about meeting your needs, criteria and other parts. Throwing a "roller" at it is not going to solve you problem. Lowering your DCR will. Whether is a flat tapped hyd, flat tappet solid, roller, whatever.

Your current cam has an intake ABDC of 60 deg. The XE274 is 63 deg and the XE284 is 68. XE275HL is 64 and XE284HL is 69 deg.

Anything bigger than those 284's might not be a match the rest of your system (3.55's 2400 stall, etc). They will also need more skill and personal attention to keep in tune. Even the 284 might bring some issues.

What's your current DCR? http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852476
06/19/15 01:07 PM
06/19/15 01:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,332
Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie Offline
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You could also roll the timing back until it doesn't detonate.


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Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: Dixie] #1852478
06/19/15 01:19 PM
06/19/15 01:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
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RSNOMO Offline
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Compression, cam, and Cam2...


There just ain't nothing like it...

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852587
06/19/15 03:51 PM
06/19/15 03:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni Offline OP
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North Carolina
I shortened the dizzy slots to have the total at 34* which seems to keep it happy at WOT. However since I connected the vacuum advance, it does this at 3/4 throttle on a hot day. I know I can disconnect the vacuum advance but it still seems like it is a bit of a compromise to lose the drivability of the extra timing. This motor seems to really like extra timing...

Would going from a .055" head gasket to a .090" make that much of a difference? I'm thinking like that would net me 10.4>>10.3 or something...not much drop.

I figured that since I am right on the edge it seems, I could go with a slightly warmer cam and not compromise with additives, race gas, retarded timing, etc. I wads also under the impression that with a 499 motor with this much compression, it would take considerably more cam and be still quite docile. No? Heck, 440Source pedals a .564" lift cam and says it's still real streetable?? Not that I would consider going quite that high as I need my vacuum goodies to work and don't want all the idle headaches with a lopey cam.

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852591
06/19/15 03:56 PM
06/19/15 03:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,252
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Why not put an adjustable vacuum can on it and dial back the amount of the vacuum advance???

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #1852639
06/19/15 05:09 PM
06/19/15 05:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni Offline OP
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North Carolina
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Why not put an adjustable vacuum can on it and dial back the amount of the vacuum advance???


If such a part truly exists, provide a part number and source and I would surely order it. All I know that you can adjust is when the vacuum advance comes in but not how much as that's controlled by the arm itself.

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852693
06/19/15 06:29 PM
06/19/15 06:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,252
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Originally Posted By cjskotni
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Why not put an adjustable vacuum can on it and dial back the amount of the vacuum advance???


If such a part truly exists, provide a part number and source and I would surely order it. All I know that you can adjust is when the vacuum advance comes in but not how much as that's controlled by the arm itself.


True, but when you describe having too much advance at 3/4 throttle (3/4 throttle is pretty low vacuum) then decreasing the can's sensitivity to vacuum might solve the issue. You CAN also modify the arm to limit total V-advance

Read up here
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=14888.0;wap2

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852763
06/19/15 08:07 PM
06/19/15 08:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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You effectively have no quench, which isn't helping the issue.

I found, with my 413, that it was sensitive to different brands of super. Have you tried a different brand? I had success with Shell, but that was back in the early 90's before all the junk gas they have today.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852767
06/19/15 08:14 PM
06/19/15 08:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni Offline OP
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So the question is...do I pursue quench as that would raise compression and I don't know if I have the know-how to even attempt that OR try a fatter head gasket (and lose power with lower SCR) OR go to a more cam to help drop the DCR?

In a 499, would dropping the hydraulic flat tappet for a roller setup with a more appropriate grind fix my problem and get significantly more power?

Re: Lucas Octane Booster [Re: cjskotni] #1852779
06/19/15 08:39 PM
06/19/15 08:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 81
Alberta
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NEVjr Offline
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Alberta
you dont list your exact specs, but i would try head gasket first because its easier and cheaper than a cam swap, and if it works, you can drive the car until you make a final decision about your cam without ruining the whole bottom end

i dont know if it helps on NA engines, but methanol/water injection might be worth looking at maybe?

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