Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1849554
06/15/15 01:14 PM
06/15/15 01:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,702 W. Kentucky
justinp61
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I Live Here
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I just spoke to Total Seal about rings for my 434 build, pump gas street/strip deal, probably 11.3-5 to 1 compression, solid roller 260-270 @ .050, low .700 lift with Indy 360-1s. For this combination they recommended a gapless top, napier second and standard tension oil ring, 1.5mm, 1.5mm, 3.0mm.
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1849564
06/15/15 01:25 PM
06/15/15 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,544 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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IMO it is a "gimmick" 99.9% of the time Total Seal will recommend something other than gapless. Total seal I think might agree if cornerd and also likely why they went to a gapless top ring. IMO it is just old antiquated thinking. To oversimplify it. The issue is with a gapless second you will loose ring seal on the top ring due to increased pressure that gets trapped by the second gapless ring. Nowadays most top engine builders actually OPEN up the gap on the second ring to allow any excess pressure to be forced down, also helping to scavenge oil off the cylinders.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1849621
06/15/15 02:36 PM
06/15/15 02:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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Use a gapless top. Open the second a bit.
The reason I use them more than most is that most guys don't want to experiment with end gaps. I have a BLOW BY METER that I use on the dyno and under load the gapless are ALWAYS better than gapped rings that are nottested. Most times, you can run the minimum gap called out, or a little less, as long as you torque plated the block and use the torque plate to gap rings.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1849666
06/15/15 03:17 PM
06/15/15 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,544 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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Gapless top rind is a diferent deal. Still while I do not hundreds of engines under my belt I try to surround myself with smart people who do and most will say they don't like them. They do give the end user a false sense of calm with leak down numbers for sure but most top tier guys do not put a lot into leak down numbers either. Compression numbers yes, leakdown not so much. I could see why some engine guys use them for that very reason alone. They will show excellent "seal" with a leakdown test so makes them look good.
FWIW $347 for a set of rings is not bad at all. My predator stuff was about $1500 more than that, just saying. As for the second gap depends on intended use, block material and ring selected IMO.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1849669
06/15/15 03:20 PM
06/15/15 03:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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They definitely do make a gapless .043 Top..........would I run them......NO. Am not a fan of gapless top rings. The reason is they never SHOWED me anything in regards to POWER. Great leakdown numbers and less on the blowby meter is fine, but does that equal more POWER and the car running faster. In our own Super Stock motors, that was not the case and we tried every ring combination there is
Last edited by Monte_Smith; 06/15/15 03:34 PM.
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1849670
06/15/15 03:21 PM
06/15/15 03:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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That's basically what I was saying. Without a blowby meter (or something similar) you only have leak down and compression testing and the gapless top always looks good in those.
The only issue with using the blow by meter is using vaccuum pumps and dry sumps. You can't use the blow by meter with them (at least I have not found a way to do it yet) so it will skew readings and make a good ring package look bad. As with all testing you need to be very careful otherwise the numbers mean nothing.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1849672
06/15/15 03:23 PM
06/15/15 03:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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I usually start with the second ring gap in the middle of what is called for in your application.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1849850
06/15/15 07:59 PM
06/15/15 07:59 PM
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crabman173
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crabman173
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Did you say NOS pistons? So..you are going to spray? I would think that a 1/16th NOS ring package would be in order Skinny rings are hot right now and make more HP but in a Spray Motor?? Not me.. Gapless has never shown me more HP on the dyno--they make great leak down test--I would maybe use them in dirt track engines that eat lots of dirt , hoping it might delay fresh up a little but even that is big maybe I think from all I have seen and built it is a gimmick and and expensive one!
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: ]
#1849870
06/15/15 08:10 PM
06/15/15 08:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,267 North, Alabama
D-50
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pro stock
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North, Alabama
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A few years ago I tried gapless rings when I freshened up the motor in my Demon. It was a wast of money. I saw zero difference in performance or anything else except less money in my pocket. I also ran a small shot of nitrous sometimes.
Last edited by D-50; 06/15/15 08:13 PM.
1.33 60 ft,6.21 at 110.59 in the 1/8, pump gas small block,2950lbs,drag radials,mufflers and driven to track ...
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1850133
06/16/15 12:25 AM
06/16/15 12:25 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,702 W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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No. That's just what wiseco named them (nitrous dome). This is a n/a engine. The total seal file fit .043 is still pricey at $189. Price a set of 1.5, 1.5, 3.0 mm, $297 for traditional ring and $387 for a gapless top ring.
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: ]
#1850180
06/16/15 01:32 AM
06/16/15 01:32 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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North Alabama
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Did you say NOS pistons? So..you are going to spray? I would think that a 1/16th NOS ring package would be in order Skinny rings are hot right now and make more HP but in a Spray Motor?? Not me.. Gapless has never shown me more HP on the dyno--they make great leak down test--I would maybe use them in dirt track engines that eat lots of dirt , hoping it might delay fresh up a little but even that is big maybe I think from all I have seen and built it is a gimmick and and expensive one! We run .043 top and second rings in 900" nitrous motors that spray 1200+HP of nitrous, in addition to the 1600 they make on nuts
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Re: total seal rings file fit or gapless top
[Re: mopar dave]
#1850654
06/16/15 08:32 PM
06/16/15 08:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 610 long time lurker, short time p...
PorkyPig
mopar
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mopar
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long time lurker, short time p...
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do you think that the total seal rings are the best performance rings to buy? IMO, no. They offer rings in a whole bunch of sizes and styles, but I don't think that means they're the best. Not that they make bad rings (I've used them before and will again), but Mahle, Hastings and Speed Pro make a good ring, too.
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