Re: Engine Oil
[Re: KingTuna]
#1835917
05/28/15 12:35 PM
05/28/15 12:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416 Georgia
KingTuna
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 416
Georgia
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This is exactly why I asked this question on here. You get so much conflicting information anywhere on the internet. I was just hoping some of you that run flat tappets would chime in on what you use, and if you've had any issues. I think I might try out the VR1 as I can get six quarts of the gray bottle on Amazon for 35$ with free shipping. Doesn't seem like a bad deal at all. Thanks everyone for the input.
2014 Ram 1500 Pentastar V6 1966 Fury II 4 door
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Re: Engine Oil
[Re: KingTuna]
#1836005
05/28/15 02:43 PM
05/28/15 02:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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Hey, Blazin' Bob, I have plenty left. But here are a few points that need to be made..... 1. The particulate that I'm talking about is so small you need a microscope to see it. The sheer number of particles is mind-boggling. If one really wanted clean oil, one would use a 5 micron or smaller absolute filter on a separate system to continuously clean the oil. I recently read a Hot Rod Magazine story about problem-solving on a reader's engine. Toward the end they stated that they put a race filter on the engine after changing the oil. This filter (they said) would allow maximum flow and really clean up the oil because it would stop anything 65 microns or larger. Stupid! 65 microns is huge. Race filters are used to keep the oil flowing and to do that they use a screen door style of filtering. Race filters are built with the understanding that after the race the oil gets changed, so they keep only the relatively huge particles trapped. Even what I have said above is in error, because the new official term for one millionth of a meter is micrometer, not micron. But I like the word micron so I use it.
2. Lubrication science is moving so fast that it takes nearly full-time studying to keep up. Example: For years it has been assumed that if one removed all particles larger than the smallest actual moving clearance between for example journal and bearing, it would eliminate wear. Testing is now showing that having too many particles much smaller than the minimum clearance increases wear.
3. Varnish is becoming more and more of a problem as clearances become tighter and tighter. Interesting to me is the nature of varnish. It is actually very small particulate, kind of little globs of Jello. It is usually formed by some sort of chemical reaction which is sometimes catalyzed by water in the oil. It collects on the colder surfaces. Because the modern Type II petroleum base stocks are more highly refined than the old familiar Type I, there aren't as many aromatics in the oil to keep the varnish dissolved. So we are having new problems with varnish in my field, where it collects in hydraulic valves and prevents them from moving when they're supposed to. Varnish can be filtered, but it requires special filters that either have a surface that attracts the varnish or else by using electrostatics.
4. Synthetics....They have many many advantages. To my mind the most important is their high Viscosity Index. This is the property that keeps the graph of Viscosity versus Temperature much flatter than any true petroleum oil. Some petroleum oils are more than 20% Viscosity Index improver. Start with thin oil and add VI improver to get it to be thick enough at higher temperatures. The VI Improvers have a tendency to shear down in molecular length and become less and less effective, making that 10W-40 oil more like straight 10W. When the oil film is ruptured failure happens. Another advantage to synthetics is they naturally have a higher film strength than petroleum oils, this is the property that keeps the metal surfaces from touching each other. That's a good thing. Synthetics can also be chosen or engineered to cling to metal surfaces, which helps in dry starts.
4. Filters are another area where progress has been made, particularly the use of synthetic filter media. Standard filters use cellulose (wood) fibers, which vary greatly in size. As a result the holes in the filter media vary greatly in size. Synthetic filter media has fibers which are much more consistent in size, and the filter can be made with much more uniform hole sizes. This should cut down on the larger particles circulating with the oil.
5. Finally, we get to the flat-tappet camshaft. Back in the day it was not unheard of for a cam to lose a few lobes. I once bought a chevelle whose 307 would only run on six, no matter what I did. Three cam lobes rounded off will do that to an engine. But it was rare. Most flat-tappet cams ran with spring loads of around 75lb closed and 150 lb or so open. We double those seat loads and triple or quadruple the open loads. The camshaft/lifter interface is perhaps the most highly stressed in the engine. It needs all the help it can get. Modern engines running roller cams don't need the help.
So it makes sense to run an oil designed for high load flat tappets. I haven't used Joe Gibbs' brand of oil, because I have no flat tappet cams with big spring loads. But I believe that's where I'd go if I did. There are others as well, and many are having success with them. Pick your poison. And spend the extra $5.00 to get a filter with synthetic media. It could help.
6. Here's the kicker - Most of the failures I see pictures of here are not lubrication failures. The time and effort spent worrying about whether to use Quaker State or Valvoline is mostly wasted. The same with filters. Even the cheapest K-mart filter will probably not allow measurable damage to a normal street engine. Most engines have air filters, and the air intake of dust is one way, maybe the major way, that particulate gets into the oil. Early cars used no filter at all, they were add-ons.
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 05/28/15 02:44 PM.
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Re: Engine Oil
[Re: KingTuna]
#1836261
05/28/15 10:24 PM
05/28/15 10:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 259 Khemi, Stygia
Mebsuta
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 259
Khemi, Stygia
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I have the dum old factory pattern cam and valve springs in 383 RR. For SL motor oil or previous I just used whatever was on sale at Walmart or Chief Auto Parts, etc (straight 30, 10w-30 or 10w-40, I could never really tell the difference).
Since SM and SN came out, I have used 10w-30 QS Defy, and regular Accel 10w-30. I still have some SL 15w-40 and I use that too.
That cam has been in my car for about 25 years, and I don't think it matters that much what I put in there. Factory stuff is said to have slower ramps and lighter spring pressure than aftermarket.
68 Roadrunner. 383 4-spd. Beat up.
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Re: Engine Oil
[Re: Mebsuta]
#1836970
05/29/15 11:16 PM
05/29/15 11:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,655 Cut and Shoot, TX
kentj340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,655
Cut and Shoot, TX
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It’s not easy for the reader, but it looks to me there’s really good information at 540ratblog that I’ve never seen before. He repeats himself far too much, is long winded, begs for astuteness, doesn’t bother with accuracy tolerances, etc., not to mention the crummy format. I had to convert his list to an Excel chart to make it useful.
But I’m glad I found it and read it thoroughly.
The blog helps explain something I've wondered about: why 10 years ago GM and many other car makers started printing “Mobil 1” on their oil filler caps and requiring it for oil changes – the stuff really is that good according to the testing. This lends 540rat some astuteness.
I could be wrong, but it seems like synthetic oils like Mobil 1 used to be quite a bit more expensive than conventional oil. Now Mobil 1 is only $6 more than dino oil in 5 quart containers at Wal-Mart. If you have hesitated to lengthen the change interval, now you can dump the Mobil 1 every 6 months or 5,000 miles and pay only an extra $1 per month.
Here’s what I found today at Wal-Mart, and I’m good with these for my fleet:
No. 11 ranked with “incredible wear protection”, 5W30 Mobil 1 API SN synthetic, $23.88/5 qts.
No. 19 ranked with “outstanding wear protection”, 5W30 Pennzoil High Mileage Vehicle API SN dino in brown container, $17.95/5 qts.
These two oils are the best marriage I could find of easy local availability with the motor oil mechanical wear test ranking list.
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If you don't see two dolphins, you need a vacation.
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Re: Engine Oil
[Re: KingTuna]
#1837203
05/30/15 11:15 AM
05/30/15 11:15 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,954 Blairsden, CA
Triggerfish
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,954
Blairsden, CA
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www.bobistheoilguy.com can help your decision. I've used Brad Penn & VR1 conventional in my Hemi, Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil, Castrol GTX, Valvoline regular in my 383 & 440 & WIX filters and never had problems other than wiping the mechanical fuel pump lobe on the Hemi's solid cam due to a repop pushrod that was too short. Only thing I won't do is use an additive to my oil, as I don't want to compromise its original formula.
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Re: Engine Oil
[Re: KingTuna]
#1837520
05/30/15 10:32 PM
05/30/15 10:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,940 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,940
Central Florida
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Sometimes too much info just muddies the waters so I think I am going to stick with Valvoline VR1 in my stock E58 Aspen, as I was advised to do by super knowledgable Mopar mechanic and former racer.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Engine Oil
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1837541
05/30/15 10:55 PM
05/30/15 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,066 Eugene, Oregon
minivan
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,066
Eugene, Oregon
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Sometimes too much info just muddies the waters so I think I am going to stick with Valvoline VR1 in my stock E58 Aspen, as I was advised to do by super knowledgable Mopar mechanic and former racer. 10-30 or 20-50?/ LOL
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