Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: SpareParts]
#1805463
04/17/15 09:35 AM
04/17/15 09:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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How did you get a 518 to lock up? My first gen Cummins had a well built 518, I would have loved a lock up switch Not the kind of lockup that Mike is talking about. But here is my thread on another board to turn your non lockup 518 into a lockup. http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/forum...p-cheap-318014/
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: SpareParts]
#1805464
04/17/15 09:36 AM
04/17/15 09:36 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Romeo MI
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How did you get a 518 to lock up? My first gen Cummins had a well built 518, I would have loved a lock up switch Your thinking lock up conv... I took that out and installed a switch for OD... you dont want the lock up I'm having(the tires are locking up)
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: dizuster]
#1805858
04/17/15 09:14 PM
04/17/15 09:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 276 Temecula, Ca.
zzyzxpat
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 276
Temecula, Ca.
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Pat, I had the same thought path as you did (I was the one who built this trans for Mike).
If the OD roller was seized it would absolutely act like this.
You sound like a man who speaks from experience that the spring and roller in the OD can be backwards (upside down). However I'm not sure how that's possible, or if it would even act like this if you did?
The spring cage is made in such a way that the top lip (when assembled correctly) can not pass through the outer race. If you try to put it in upside down then the cage won't assemble. This was a brand new roller/cage assembly. Also, if the springs were forcing the rollers away from the ramps, then I believe the roller clutch would never lock up regardless of direction. The rollers would always be held off the ramps no matter which way the roller was spun?
The other thing that doesn't make sense is that Mike had this trans working in 1st and 2nd last year with the OD turned on (Manual switch). He says it would actually over drive in 1st and 2nd. This is against what normal valve bodies would do, but I have no idea what the trans go kit allows?
Now the OD switch does not cause any issues in 1st/2nd... only direct. If the roller was in backwards/upside down, and could cause an issue as you described it should do it in 1st and 2nd too... not just 3rd. This also would eliminate the clutch stackup height being wrong causing the issue. UNLESS Mike was mistaken last year and the OD never actually was doing anything in 1st or 2nd.
In that case it would open back up all of the OD issues (tight clutch or roller clutch).
I don't see how the clutch clearance could do it though. You're literally turning the OD direct clutches off when the piston is applied. If the piston moves far enough to apply the OD clutches, is it even possible that the direct clutches could still be on? I could see if the direct clutches were screwed up in that they had an extra clutch in them or something, that the stack might be so tight the OD piston could not move at all. But in that case this limited movement wouldn't allow the OD clutches to apply anyway?
I told Mike to take the car out tomorrow and drive it in manual second. With some speed up flip the OD switch and see if it actually "shifts". If it does... the OD unit would seem to be functioning correctly and would lead me to a valvebody (Check ball?) or wiring issue somehow causing the reverse/low band to apply.
The other thing Mike and I talked about tonight was the wiring. The connector was lost this winter and the trans was re-wired. With this rebuilt manual valve body/transgo kit that's in this thing, I have no idea what would happen if you turned the lock up circuit on. Looking at the valve body flow diagrams it doesn't appear that fluid could get from the LU circuit into the low band anyway, but who knows with the trans go kit that's in there I suppose.
Any/all help is welcome... Sorry for a late response, I haven't been able to log on the last 2 days. Remember, the only reason the OWC is in the OD section is to eliminate a 4-3 or 4-2 flare, or a 3-4 flare. The OD direct clutches really do nothing going forward in 1st,2nd, and 3rd as the OWC is locked in the direction of engine rotation thus sending the power to the driveshaft. In 4th, the OD brake clutches apply, thus releasing the OD direct clutches, the OWC starts to freewheel, and you get OD. If you can make the OD brake clutches come on at will, you can overdrive any forward gear. In reverse, the OWC is freewheeling as you are turning the driveshaft opposite of engine rotation, thus the OD direct clutches carry all the load. If the clearance of the OD direct clutches is not correct (it is set by the selective on the OD brake piston)you can get a bind on the 3-4, a slip in reverse, or when real bad, no reverse. There is no adjustment for the OD brake clutches, it is preset. There is a measurement that must be made to set the OD direct clutches. I have never seen the OWC be installed backwards, but it can be done. I am a production transmission builder, 31 years now, and also consult on a couple transmission technical sites and have heard of more than one person install the OWC backwards. It must freewheel CCW, lock CW. Please let us know what you find.
" The last official act of any goverment, is to loot the treasury" George Washington
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: zzyzxpat]
#1805889
04/17/15 09:49 PM
04/17/15 09:49 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Pat.. I have a question... I drove the car today and flipped the OD switch on and off while in 1st and 2nd.. nothing changed but I was sure it did last year.. but now I am doubting myself.. I checked the wiring.. it is correct.... am I wrong that it should have worked in 1st and 2nd with a manual switch.. thanks.. I think I'm getting ready to pull this thing again... also.. being that I have changed the pump and input shaft for the use of a 727 conv.. did I hurt the oil flow to anything... I'm thing about picking up another trans.. one of the NON lock up OD units.. what was the years and trucks that this trans came in... thanks
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1805955
04/17/15 11:34 PM
04/17/15 11:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 276 Temecula, Ca.
zzyzxpat
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 276
Temecula, Ca.
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Hi Mike. I don't know if you can get the OD brake clutches to apply by simply engaging the OD solenoid. I would need to look at the hydraulic schematics. I build stock stuff and don't mess with race stuff anymore. Years ago, Division 7 stuff, but no more <G> As far as a 727 pump and input drum, none of the questions I ask would cause a bindup in OD though. I assume that you are running a non lockup setup? The 727 and 518 converters are the same assuming they are both lockup or non lockup. Spline count change between lockup and non lockup. All of that is moot. If you are locking up the rear wheels when you engage overdrive, you have something misassembled in the OD section. Be happy to help if I can. Pat
" The last official act of any goverment, is to loot the treasury" George Washington
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1805956
04/17/15 11:35 PM
04/17/15 11:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,860 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
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Pattison Texas
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mine only goes in overdrive when trans is in 3rd gear
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1806071
04/18/15 05:39 AM
04/18/15 05:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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With a stock valve body you can't get OD in any gear but 3rd. If the ground wire to activate the solenoid is always grounded the trans will shift 1/2, 2/OD. There may be a slight amount of time in 3rd before it shifts into OD while the valves are working to apply pressure to the OD piston.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1806076
04/18/15 06:17 AM
04/18/15 06:17 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 883 Affton MO
qwkmopardan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2008
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Affton MO
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I'm thing about picking up another trans.. one of the NON lock up OD units.. what was the years and trucks that this trans came in... thanks 88-90. I just sold one at the Indy trade show
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: slammedR/T]
#1806130
04/18/15 10:30 AM
04/18/15 10:30 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Only if it was behind a diesel. The gas engines were lockups. But there were exceptions. I believe it could have been ordered either way or a GVWR was the deciding factor. In either case just finding a certain year isn't a determining factor. The only way to go by the year is if it was a diesel, which would be 91.5-93 intercooled models.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1806169
04/18/15 11:25 AM
04/18/15 11:25 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Romeo MI
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Only if it was behind a diesel. The gas engines were lockups. But there were exceptions. I believe it could have been ordered either way or a GVWR was the deciding factor. In either case just finding a certain year isn't a determining factor. The only way to go by the year is if it was a diesel, which would be 91.5-93 intercooled models. I will assume that even a diesel unit would work with a governor change and maybe changing the valve body to get the shift points up
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1806217
04/18/15 12:35 PM
04/18/15 12:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Only if it was behind a diesel. The gas engines were lockups. But there were exceptions. I believe it could have been ordered either way or a GVWR was the deciding factor. In either case just finding a certain year isn't a determining factor. The only way to go by the year is if it was a diesel, which would be 91.5-93 intercooled models. I will assume that even a diesel unit would work with a governor change and maybe changing the valve body to get the shift points up It's really only the governor weights and springs that are different except of course for the bell housing.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1806223
04/18/15 12:46 PM
04/18/15 12:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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What I'm looking for right now is a 88-91 5.9 truck gas burner with the non lock up.. I'll build this up as a back up.. unless I can find one real quick.. then I would just freshen it up and put it in
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1806333
04/18/15 03:49 PM
04/18/15 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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I got the engine /trans ready to lift out but I blocked my cherry picker in with 10 bags of fertilizer.. 500 lbs.. I'm taking a break
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1811498
04/25/15 01:25 PM
04/25/15 01:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,640
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Well, are you going to spill the beans on what the major malfunction is/was?
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#1811500
04/25/15 01:32 PM
04/25/15 01:32 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Well, are you going to spill the beans on what the major malfunction is/was? Scott (dizuster) has the trans right now... I was hoping that we could check it today.. but I havent got a call from him as to when we can work on it... I wish it could be today.. I dont have much time.. I have to go into the hospital in a couple of weeks for a double by-pass so I'll be down for a while EDIT He talked with a few guys at work(Chrysler) and they said its most likely the over running clutch is in upside down.. being that its a aftermarket clutch it can be done.. the factory one shouldnt be able to
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 04/25/15 01:35 PM.
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Re: This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help
[Re: dizuster]
#1811904
04/25/15 10:12 PM
04/25/15 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Had a 20min break today between family stuff. Got everything all apart. Sure enough the OD roller clutch was installed backwards. There is indeed a lip on the roller cage to prevent it from being put on wrong... BUT if you load it from the front, instead of the rear (like it's supposed to be) it will go on backwards.
The good thing is everything in the trans looks brand new still. Flipped it over, and got it just about all back together. Just need to install the OD unit back onto the trans. Should be back together right after work Monday Mike.
Tomorrow is my wedding anniversary... My wife would kill me if I tried putting it back together tomorrow... Lol Thanks Scott.. glad everything still looks good... I'll talk with you Monday... have fun tomorrow
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