This Is A New One On Me.. Trans Help.. UPDATE.. Same Thing

I took the Rampage out for a put to see if it pulled left or
right.. thats fine.. BUT as it shifted through the gears(the
shifter is in drive) as soon as it goes into high gear the
rear tires LOCK UP.. as soon as it down shifts out of high
it frees up.... this is something I have never seen before..
any ideas... that GOD I was taking it easy and was on my street
and no traffic .. because it went side ways on the lock up
thanks

The only thing I can think of is the band and the clutches
are on together... correct me if I'm wrong here

That is what I call 2-3 tie-up, caused by to fast of a band apply or to quick of a front clutch apply. A 5.1 band lever can cause this and so can removing front drum springs. BUT it should free up if you keep driving, if it is truly locking up, the band is not releasing enough at all.

I'll check the band adjustment but I'm sure its backed off
2 1/8 turns... and its locking up.. tires screaming and the
back end sliding out side ways

If it totally locked up (not just temporary nose over) the front servo isn't releasing....could be broken piston/ring.

Whats the test for this John

Put a gauge in the front test port & run it on jack stands.

And what pressure should I see when it locks up
EDIT
I just checked my 518 book and it calls for 2 turns
out on both bands.. I'll check it but I'm sure its there
so it must be jammed up in the piston

Apply pressure should be around 155#.

I had the same problem with a 904 I built .they put it in ,took it out and drove it it was locking up in 3rd .I went to the shop and put a pressure guage on the front servowhen it shifted into 3rd it never released the band I checked the linkage adjustment it was off. I put the unit in 3rd and adjusted the cable so it would go right in the problem was fixed.but you know how it is the trans builder is always at fault lol.hope this helps.

Check the shifter cable adjustments, especially in high gear.

I'll check a few things tomorrow.. shifter, band adjustment
and if they look good I'll pull the valve body and do a air
test on the servo

Matt and I ran into this one to while testing his 727 transmission in the shop on jack stands. The wheels would completely stop in 3rd gear. We removed the aftermarket lever on our CRT transmission and the car ran better than it ever did. Lesson learned and the lever is in my junk pile on the shelf.

I have the factory lever on it.. I'll check things
out tomorrow
EDIT
I sure hope its something as simple as the cable adjustment

had this happen on mine when I installed the first T-A valve body. Luckily, my car was still on jack stands when I found it. Talked with Paul Forte about it over the phone, and he was convinced I had done something wrong (as was I), but agreed to take a look at the valve body, so I sent it to him. He called me a week later, said he had installed it into his test vehicle and it did the same thing. Locked up in D. He appologized profusely and sent me a new valve body which worked fine. My point is simply that it could be in the valve body (???).

I checked the cable adjustment on the shifter.. that was perfect
and I checked the band adjustment which was good.. it still locked
up but its on the hoist now...now I'm getting ready to drop the pan
and the valve body... I'm gonna do a air check on the servo to see
if its moving freely and for a crack in it
EDIT
Anyone have any other ideas before I drop the pan.... by the way
I checked the cable in low and in drive positions and both were
perfect

I think there is a port at the band servo for external access if you have a pressure gauge? Maybe im dreaming, but that it about it without dropping the pan.

UPDATE
I tested it with the OD OFF and it doesnt lock up.. flip the
OD ON and it locks up... so it has something to do with the
OD... now the next question is... what would happen IF I might
have the wires wrong and am trying to engage the lock up in
the conv ... but I dont have a lock up conv... would it direct
fluid to something that can lock it up

IM out, forgot all about you having a 518. Im no help there.

I might be running in uncharted waters here... being that
I am running a 518 that uses JUST OD... thats why I am
wondering if I hooked up the OD and LU solenoids backwards
and instead of energizing the OD solenoid I am energizing the
LU solenoid and without a LU conv what would happen... I still
want to do another test to verify this.. I should see the wheel
speed and the tach change if I flip the switch in 2nd gear( this
trans is in OD any time its engaged in the forward gears)

The non lock up valve body is different from the lockup valve body. The lockup valve body uses a boost valve to up the pressure to the converter clutch. Non lockup and lockup input shafts are different as is the reaction shaft. I'm not sure you can swap a lockup valve body and a non lockup valve body.

So your valve body has 3 wires correct? The center wire is 12 volts ignition hot. The forward wire is the O/D solenoid and the rear wire is the lockup solenoid.

This was running last year... I changed out the input shaft and the
pump to allow for a standard 727 high stall conv... I'm pretty sure
I have it wired right but I'm gonna check it... but IF it were wired
backward.. what would happen.... I was using the lock up VB and
still have it in there now... like I said.. this was working last
year but I had another thing go wrong so I pulled it

Yeah but you were running it with the lockup converter, input and pump. The fluid path is different between the two and it's in the reaction shaft of the pump. The valve body is accordingly different as well. I believe you will need a non lockup single solenoid valve body.

With you configuration I have no idea what would happen if you wired it backwards. I've only seen one guy put a lockup reaction shaft in a non lockup transmission. It didn't fill the converter, turned a bunch of parts blue.

Last year I was running this same set up... 727 pump and input
shaft.. I pulled it out because of a sticky governor

OK, I get what you're saying. It sounded like you just changed all that stuff.

In this case it sounds like there may be a problem in the O/D. I don't have an elements in use chart here, that would help. But if it's locking up in third and not when switching on O/D then I doubt it's the wiring.

I was gonna test this in 2nd gear to see if the wheel speed
and tach showed if the OD is going on... if it is, then its
wired right

Test it in 3rd. I don't think it's possible to get O/D in second.

With a manual switch it is possible... I was running OD in
all the forward gears last year... I tried to flip the OD on
and off while in 3rd/high and with the OD applied it locks up
but flip it off and its fine

You have a problem in the O/D then.

Sorta figured this much but was wondering if it could/can be in
the valve body.. this was torn down for cleaning... or if I have
to pull the trans out and tear it apart
thanks

I doubt it's in the valve body but you could just pull the O/D unit off and take it apart.

The way I built this car I cant pull the back off the trans..
I have to pull the engine and trans together... no big deal
if I have to pull it

Your OWC, spring and roller in the OD section is backwards, and yes, it can be done. When OD (4th) gear is commanded, the OD brake clutches apply, the OD OWC (one way clutch) must be able to freewheel. If not , you have a bind up.
OR, you have a setup, clearance problem between the OD direct clutches an the OD brake clutches, but highly unlikely. It would have to be off a ton, and if the OD direct clutches were too tight and slipping, reverse would be affected.

Pat

Pat, I had the same thought path as you did (I was the one who built this trans for Mike).

If the OD roller was seized it would absolutely act like this.

You sound like a man who speaks from experience that the spring and roller in the OD can be backwards (upside down). However I'm not sure how that's possible, or if it would even act like this if you did?

The spring cage is made in such a way that the top lip (when assembled correctly) can not pass through the outer race. If you try to put it in upside down then the cage won't assemble. This was a brand new roller/cage assembly. Also, if the springs were forcing the rollers away from the ramps, then I believe the roller clutch would never lock up regardless of direction. The rollers would always be held off the ramps no matter which way the roller was spun?

The other thing that doesn't make sense is that Mike had this trans working in 1st and 2nd last year with the OD turned on (Manual switch). He says it would actually over drive in 1st and 2nd. This is against what normal valve bodies would do, but I have no idea what the trans go kit allows?

Now the OD switch does not cause any issues in 1st/2nd... only direct. If the roller was in backwards/upside down, and could cause an issue as you described it should do it in 1st and 2nd too... not just 3rd. This also would eliminate the clutch stackup height being wrong causing the issue. UNLESS Mike was mistaken last year and the OD never actually was doing anything in 1st or 2nd.

In that case it would open back up all of the OD issues (tight clutch or roller clutch).

I don't see how the clutch clearance could do it though. You're literally turning the OD direct clutches off when the piston is applied. If the piston moves far enough to apply the OD clutches, is it even possible that the direct clutches could still be on? I could see if the direct clutches were screwed up in that they had an extra clutch in them or something, that the stack might be so tight the OD piston could not move at all. But in that case this limited movement wouldn't allow the OD clutches to apply anyway?

I told Mike to take the car out tomorrow and drive it in manual second. With some speed up flip the OD switch and see if it actually "shifts". If it does... the OD unit would seem to be functioning correctly and would lead me to a valvebody (Check ball?) or wiring issue somehow causing the reverse/low band to apply.

The other thing Mike and I talked about tonight was the wiring. The connector was lost this winter and the trans was re-wired. With this rebuilt manual valve body/transgo kit that's in this thing, I have no idea what would happen if you turned the lock up circuit on. Looking at the valve body flow diagrams it doesn't appear that fluid could get from the LU circuit into the low band anyway, but who knows with the trans go kit that's in there I suppose.

Any/all help is welcome...

I have a 518 non lockup trans swapped into an older truck. I use a switch to turn on o/d manually. It isn't tied into a brake switch or any pressure switch. With the OD switch in the "on" position, it will not go into OD until 3rd gear. However... If the switch is left in the "on" position, and the truck downshifts (as in coming to a stop) it will stay in OD through 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Is this how this trans is/was functioning? Just curious as to if it can start in OD?
My trans is a factory built non lock up, so it may not act as yours does.

Well now we have some more information. I can't answer for the valve body but like TRENDZ says a normal 518 will not allow OD until it's in 3rd gear. Maybe, possibly, the transgo modifications allow this. This could possibly have done some damage, I don't know.

Mike, did you take the OD unit apart when you dealt with the governor valve? I have seen the small bushing between the intermediate and output shafts crack and break into small pieces. This could possibly be jamming the inner race of the over running clutch.

No we didnt take the OD apart.. we put in a new/used unit
EDIT
I took the day off and went fishing so tomorrow I'll take it
out on the road and see if the OD works in 1st and 2nd and I'll
check the wiring

Mike OD was apart, replaced the Torrington and rear planet that had chewed up remember?

How did you get a 518 to lock up? My first gen Cummins had a well built 518, I would have loved a lock up switch

Not the kind of lockup that Mike is talking about. But here is my thread on another board to turn your non lockup 518 into a lockup. http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/forum...p-cheap-318014/

Your thinking lock up conv... I took that out and installed a
switch for OD... you dont want the lock up I'm having(the tires
are locking up)

Sorry for a late response, I haven't been able to log on the last 2 days.

Remember, the only reason the OWC is in the OD section is to eliminate a 4-3 or 4-2 flare, or a 3-4 flare. The OD direct clutches really do nothing going forward in 1st,2nd, and 3rd as the OWC is locked in the direction of engine rotation thus sending the power to the driveshaft. In 4th, the OD brake clutches apply, thus releasing the OD direct clutches, the OWC starts to freewheel, and you get OD. If you can make the OD brake clutches come on at will, you can overdrive any forward gear. In reverse, the OWC is freewheeling as you are turning the driveshaft opposite of engine rotation, thus the OD direct clutches carry all the load. If the clearance of the OD direct clutches is not correct (it is set by the selective on the OD brake piston)you can get a bind on the 3-4, a slip in reverse, or when real bad, no reverse.
There is no adjustment for the OD brake clutches, it is preset. There is a measurement that must be made to set the OD direct clutches.
I have never seen the OWC be installed backwards, but it can be done. I am a production transmission builder, 31 years now, and also consult on a couple transmission technical sites and have heard of more than one person install the OWC backwards. It must freewheel CCW, lock CW.
Please let us know what you find.

Pat.. I have a question... I drove the car today and flipped
the OD switch on and off while in 1st and 2nd.. nothing changed
but I was sure it did last year.. but now I am doubting myself..
I checked the wiring.. it is correct.... am I wrong that it should
have worked in 1st and 2nd with a manual switch.. thanks.. I think
I'm getting ready to pull this thing again... also.. being that I
have changed the pump and input shaft for the use of a 727 conv..
did I hurt the oil flow to anything... I'm thing about picking up
another trans.. one of the NON lock up OD units.. what was the years
and trucks that this trans came in... thanks

Hi Mike.
I don't know if you can get the OD brake clutches to apply by simply engaging the OD solenoid. I would need to look at the hydraulic schematics. I build stock stuff and don't mess with race stuff anymore. Years ago, Division 7 stuff, but no more <G>
As far as a 727 pump and input drum, none of the questions I ask would cause a bindup in OD though. I assume that you are running a non lockup setup? The 727 and 518 converters are the same assuming they are both lockup or non lockup. Spline count change between lockup and non lockup. All of that is moot. If you are locking up the rear wheels when you engage overdrive, you have something misassembled in the OD section.
Be happy to help if I can.
Pat

mine only goes in overdrive when trans is in 3rd gear

With a stock valve body you can't get OD in any gear but 3rd. If the ground wire to activate the solenoid is always grounded the trans will shift 1/2, 2/OD. There may be a slight amount of time in 3rd before it shifts into OD while the valves are working to apply pressure to the OD piston.

88-90. I just sold one at the Indy trade show

89-93 518 was nonlock-up

Only if it was behind a diesel. The gas engines were lockups. But there were exceptions. I believe it could have been ordered either way or a GVWR was the deciding factor. In either case just finding a certain year isn't a determining factor. The only way to go by the year is if it was a diesel, which would be 91.5-93 intercooled models.

I will assume that even a diesel unit would work with a governor
change and maybe changing the valve body to get the shift points
up

It's really only the governor weights and springs that are different except of course for the bell housing.

What I'm looking for right now is a 88-91 5.9 truck gas burner
with the non lock up.. I'll build this up as a back up.. unless
I can find one real quick.. then I would just freshen it up and
put it in

I got the engine /trans ready to lift out but I blocked my
cherry picker in with 10 bags of fertilizer.. 500 lbs.. I'm
taking a break

Well, are you going to spill the beans on what the major malfunction is/was?

Scott (dizuster) has the trans right now... I was hoping that
we could check it today.. but I havent got a call from him as
to when we can work on it... I wish it could be today.. I dont
have much time.. I have to go into the hospital in a couple
of weeks for a double by-pass so I'll be down for a while
EDIT
He talked with a few guys at work(Chrysler) and they said its
most likely the over running clutch is in upside down.. being
that its a aftermarket clutch it can be done.. the factory one
shouldnt be able to

Had a 20min break today between family stuff. Got everything all apart. Sure enough the OD roller clutch was installed backwards. There is indeed a lip on the roller cage to prevent it from being put on wrong... BUT if you load it from the front, instead of the rear (like it's supposed to be) it will go on backwards.

The good thing is everything in the trans looks brand new still. Flipped it over, and got it just about all back together. Just need to install the OD unit back onto the trans. Should be back together right after work Monday Mike.

Tomorrow is my wedding anniversary... My wife would kill me if I tried putting it back together tomorrow... Lol

Good luck with the double Mike.

I just had a triple at the end of Feb and I feel good as new.

It wasn't nearly the ordeal I imagined it might be.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to PM me.

Kevin

Had a 20min break today between family stuff. Got everything all apart. Sure enough the OD roller clutch was installed backwards. There is indeed a lip on the roller cage to prevent it from being put on wrong... BUT if you load it from the front, instead of the rear (like it's supposed to be) it will go on backwards.

The good thing is everything in the trans looks brand new still. Flipped it over, and got it just about all back together. Just need to install the OD unit back onto the trans. Should be back together right after work Monday Mike.

Tomorrow is my wedding anniversary... My wife would kill me if I tried putting it back together tomorrow... Lol

Thanks Scott.. glad everything still looks good... I'll talk
with you Monday... have fun tomorrow

Thanks... I had a single done about 12 years ago.. it collapsed
so its only working on the one artery now and its 60% blocked
so the doc is suppose to look at me soon...( a specialist being
that they call me high risk.. dont know about that) last time I
thought it was pretty easy.. but cant do much for a while.. thats
wh I want to get this back together

Good luck on the medical front Mike and nice to see it's not anything major with the trans

Mike, good luck with the surgery. I had a double done last year, recovered well.

Thanks guys... it will go well... LOL... I just hope the timing
works out... I want this done soon so the wife can get her hip
replaced.. she has a time also... she goes in at the end of May
and I hope she doesnt have to set that back

Mr P.,

Is she rolling or skidding??

I just put the engine and trans in today.. I should have it
all done tomorrow.. magic word.. should... but I plan on taking
it out for a run on Saturday... I just need to hook up all the
sensor plugs and the alt. then put in the radiator

How did the maiden voyage go??

Do you need a hand with anything?

I'm gonna fire it up in a short bit... cutting the lawn
right now(break time).. since I cut about 3 acres it takes
a couple of hours
But the car is all back together.. just need to hook up the
battery and have at it
EDIT
thanks for the offer

Fired right up.. everything seems to be ok.. just did a
quick check on the hoist.. wife wants to go out to dinner
so I kept it quick... I'll take it out tomorrow for a cruise

Awesome keep us posted.

you ever need a helping hand feel free to ask.

Took it out for a cruise down the street... I started out in
OD off.. 1st, 2nd, 3rd.. then flipped the OD on... same damn
thing... locked up the rear tires.. but I knew enough to just
flip the OD off to not loose control ... I dont freeking understand
what the hell is going on... I'm ready to torch this piece of crap..
but letting the injection learn for a bit, it sure idles nice

Now I have to figure out some sort of a plan of attach since
it did the same thing again.. I think I'll try swapping the
wires on the OD and LU just to see what happens.. right now
I am at a total loss of ideas.. anyone got any ideas.. thanks

I don't know much about this overdrive stuff but sure am glad your car idles sweet with the efi.

I was going to ask if you tried swapping wire's around.
Don't know if that is the fix but easy to do .

I'm gonna try it tomorrow.. I have no clue what would happen
but its worth a try

Mike,
Before you swap the wires, lets see if we can't figure out exactly what's causing the "binding".

Take a look at this pic. Do you have a pressure gauge that you can screw into these ports? Front Servo, Rear servo, and OD port are what we're interested in. Get it on the hoist and run it through each gear.

If you did, we can see if it's getting OD pressure in 1-2-3-OD, if it's getting reverse or intermediate (2nd gear) pressure when you put it in OD.

Basically it will tell us what is coming "ON" that shouldn't be causing this bind up...

Should look something like this Yes/No if it has pressure in each gear for each port.

Front Servo
1-No
2-Yes
3-No
OD-No

Rear Servo
1- Maybe (depends if low band apply) Either OK
2-No
3-No
OD-No

OD
1- No
2-No
3-No
4-Yes

2009-11-12_225648_ports

Scott.. what kind of pressure would I be seeing.. just so I
dont trash a gauge.... I swapped the wires. nothing happens
which is what I figured ... I have to see how many gauges I
have in the range needed

A 250 to 300 gauge should be fine. Here is a copy and paste I found. Even though it says PCM your manual switch is your control.

"3-4 SHIFT SEQUENCE...The overdrive clutch is applied in fourth gear only. The direct clutch is applied in all ranges except fourth gear. Fourth gear overdrive range is electronically controlled and hydraulically activated. Various sensor inputs are supplied to the powertrain control module to operate the overdrive solenoid on the valve body. The solenoid contains a check ball that opens and closes a vent port in the 3-4 shift valve feed passage. The overdrive solenoid (and check ball) are not energized in first, second, third, or reverse gear. The vent port remains open, diverting line pressure from the 2-3 shift valve away from the 3-4 shift valve. The overdrive control switch must be in the ON position to transmit overdrive status to the PCM. A 3-4 upshift occurs only when the overdrive solenoid is energized by the PCM. The PCM energizes the overdrive solenoid during the 3-4 upshift. This causes the solenoid check ball to close the vent port allowing line pressure from the 2-3 shift valve to act directly on the 3-4 upshift valve. Line pressure on the 3-4 shift valve overcomes valve spring pressure moving the valve to the upshift position. This action exposes the feed passages to the 3-4 timing valve, 3-4 quick fill valve, 3-4 accumulator, and ultimately to the overdrive piston. Line pressure through the timing valve moves the overdrive piston into contact with the overdrive clutch. The direct clutch is disengaged before the overdrive clutch is engaged. The boost valve provides increased fluid apply pressure to the overdrive clutch during 3-4 upshifts, and when accelerating in fourth gear. The 3-4 accumulator cushions overdrive clutch engagement to smooth 3-4 upshifts. The accumulator is charged at the same time as apply pressure acts against the overdrive piston."

Mike I spent a few hours looking at valve body flow diagram this morning. Under no misassembly circumstances can I see that the valve body could do this (the pressure test would be proof).

The only other thing I can think of, is if the selective thrust plate for the OD was too thin/missing, it is possible to apply the OD clutches WITHOUT disengaging the direct clutches in the OD. This would keep the direct OD clutches on, and bind the system just as it's doing.

It is possible that the OD roller being in upside down was wrong, but not what was actually causing the issue...

Once you read what I posted I believe your problem is here. My bets are there is something missing or installed wrong in the valve body. Or possibly a pressure issue some place. I don't think there is a port to test the direct clutch pressures.

Looking at the valve body flow diagrams, there doesn't seem to be any way for the OD to feed the reverse band or intermediate band to apply it.

Those are the only two bands in the front half of the trans that could come on to accidentally bind up the front half.

The 2nd gear servo always has pressure to the apply side. The only way that it can turn on, is when the pressure from the disengage side of the servo is removed. I can't see how the 3/4 shift valve solenoid could cause a removal of that pressure.

The only way the reverse band can come on is through the manual valve for reverse or manual low. If it were being back fed from the rear drum, it would be locking up in 3rd gear also, not just OD. Again, I can't see where the OD circuit could even get into the reverse band or intermediate.

Well I will hook up a test gauge to see what the different
ports have in the line of pressure/no pressure.. I put the
wires back to what they should be... thanks guys

Once you get the pressures checked Mike, it will really help point us in the right direction of what is causing the binding.

Scott... its really not what I thought it was... I ran the
gauge on the front servo... it takes more than I thought to
get into high gear... with the OD OFF... I get no pressure
in first.. no pressure in second... let it go into 3rd/high
gear and it locks the tires and I get a spike on pressure..
I dont know about OD... I havent run the gauge on any of the
other ports yet.. figured I'd report this... seems that the
governor is on the high side to me