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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1762422
02/26/15 07:46 PM
02/26/15 07:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 760
Canada
CTD5.9
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 760
Canada
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Quote:
The thing about dyno numbers.......is it is JUST that, a number. You go into a shop, plunk down your hard earned money, tell them you WANT a 1200hp Predator motor, you can about bet they will produce a dyno sheet that says it makes that. But the race track doesn't lie. What does it weigh and how much mph does it run. THAT tells you how much power it makes.
I love reading the knowledge you guys bring to this forum as a non drag racer, from from my observations isn't the race track the biggest liar for actual power?
There are so many posts on different variables that effect track times that even a dyno seems more accurate. Tires, springs,shocks, aero, gearing, transmission, pinion angle, track condition, altitude etc etc all effect it. Even the driver has a ton to do with it, if I was in Al's car it would have the MPH of a slant 6 powered valiant wagon and he would need to replace the drivers seat due to random stains after I was done.
Plus it really discredits other forms of racing, Boatracers572 boat and diablo's pulling truck come to mind. I put my mud racing truck into the wallace calculator one day and my poor 440 was making something like 17 horsepower, and sometimes I don't even make it the full 200 feet.
Last edited by rednuck; 02/26/15 07:46 PM.
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: CTD5.9]
#1762423
02/26/15 08:10 PM
02/26/15 08:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Quote:
The thing about dyno numbers.......is it is JUST that, a number. You go into a shop, plunk down your hard earned money, tell them you WANT a 1200hp Predator motor, you can about bet they will produce a dyno sheet that says it makes that. But the race track doesn't lie. What does it weigh and how much mph does it run. THAT tells you how much power it makes.
I love reading the knowledge you guys bring to this forum as a non drag racer, from from my observations isn't the race track the biggest liar for actual power?
There are so many posts on different variables that effect track times that even a dyno seems more accurate. Tires, springs,shocks, aero, gearing, transmission, pinion angle, track condition, altitude etc etc all effect it. Even the driver has a ton to do with it, if I was in Al's car it would have the MPH of a slant 6 powered valiant wagon and he would need to replace the drivers seat due to random stains after I was done.
Plus it really discredits other forms of racing, Boatracers572 boat and diablo's pulling truck come to mind. I put my mud racing truck into the wallace calculator one day and my poor 440 was making something like 17 horsepower, and sometimes I don't even make it the full 200 feet.
This is a good point. The thing is, most of us at this power range know how to tune our stuff to the conditions, tire size, roll out, gear etc. It's a matter of if we go through the trouble to find the ideal tune for ET and .90 racing. Guys in comp, or small tire, first to the finish line racing, don't have a choice. If they don't run on the edge, they lose.
Guys like me that put a number on the car and print time slips, don't put as much time into putting the car on the edge, more in tuning it to repeat. In that case, we don't try to put lot's of pass limiting hits the dyno as it is just a number and tuning tool.
Some guys make more runs on the dyno than at the track, even wear out engines figuring out the optimal tune.
Opinions vary, and I don't put a lot of hits on a dyno but use it to get an idea of jetting, timing, RPM range, and stop any leaks.
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: CTD5.9]
#1762424
02/26/15 08:25 PM
02/26/15 08:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
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I'm building a 672 with Predator heads. I started to go 690, but opted for the 672 because of the rod/cam interference even with a 2 inch rod journal, and a 60mm cam.
Bryant just finished the crank, but still waiting on the block. The heads have been an ongoing effort, and still not done. Offsetting the rockers makes room to make the ports as big as they need to be, which seem to be a problem with big inch motors. With tool steel rockers we can offset, and move the port wall another .175.
When, if ever finished it'll go in my RJ stratus, and I think 1300 should be doable, but only time will tell.
Trouble is, there's no real reason to be doing it. There's no class where that head would be competitive against Ford, or Chevy. Just something to try.
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: CTD5.9]
#1762426
02/26/15 08:56 PM
02/26/15 08:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Quote:
The thing about dyno numbers.......is it is JUST that, a number. You go into a shop, plunk down your hard earned money, tell them you WANT a 1200hp Predator motor, you can about bet they will produce a dyno sheet that says it makes that. But the race track doesn't lie. What does it weigh and how much mph does it run. THAT tells you how much power it makes.
I love reading the knowledge you guys bring to this forum as a non drag racer, from from my observations isn't the race track the biggest liar for actual power?
There are so many posts on different variables that effect track times that even a dyno seems more accurate. Tires, springs,shocks, aero, gearing, transmission, pinion angle, track condition, altitude etc etc all effect it. Even the driver has a ton to do with it, if I was in Al's car it would have the MPH of a slant 6 powered valiant wagon and he would need to replace the drivers seat due to random stains after I was done.
Plus it really discredits other forms of racing, Boatracers572 boat and diablo's pulling truck come to mind. I put my mud racing truck into the wallace calculator one day and my poor 440 was making something like 17 horsepower, and sometimes I don't even make it the full 200 feet.
Yes, getting the car down the track is important.........but is track time a liar about power?........absolutely NOT. ET the car runs is not representative of power, but MPH is. So the car can make a junk pass, but if it is making any power, it will be moving in the back half and those last few feet of the track where the mph clocks are. At a certain weight, HP should propel a car to a certain mph, that is simple math. If the engine is in the rpm range it should be, the converter slip is where it should be, it SHOULD run a certain mph range based on the power it supposedly makes.
I can run the numbers for our own drag radial car. If I input our best speed.....178 and our weight......2750, the calculators say we make around 2450hp. Based on our motor and the amount of nitrous we spray, I would say that number is very close. Now, if I input our best ET.........which is 4.16........and our 2750 weight, the calculator says just a little over 2000hp and I KNOW that is not right. ET is based on how you get the car down the track. Ours being a drag radial car we know we leave plenty on the table early as for ET, but we MAKE power, the mph and how fast we cover the back split tells me that
In general weather conditions, a 2450lb TS type car, with an engine that makes 1300hp......SHOULD run 7.30-7.40s in the 192mph range. If you look at the graph, the rpm is where it should be, the converter slip is where it should be and the car is running 185mph.......it is NOT making 1300hp. It is actually about 100 down from advertised. The math just is what it is.
I am NOT saying dyno numbers are useless. I dyno motors all the time. What I AM saying is that they are NOT the be all end all barometer of an engine, because those numbers can be EASILY manipulated, based on correction factors.
BUT, HP propels a properly set up car, at a certain weigh, to a certain MPH range. That's a true barometer. A prime example are some of the .90 class cars. They ALL run the same ET. But some run 150, some run 170. You put 20mph on another car, in the same class, at the same weight, you have WAY more power
NONE of this is a KNOCK on anybody, nor an attempt to diminish anything. You mention truck pulling. That is more about torque than raw power. So yes, you want to dyno the motor and see if the combination makes the power it should, where it should.
My observation was about the multitude of guys that tout "my motor makes X HP" because they have some dyno sheet that says it does, but the performance on the track does not come close to backing up that claim
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: CTD5.9]
#1762428
02/26/15 11:22 PM
02/26/15 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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As I have always said the track is the best way to humble those big HP numbers. Like pointed out mph and weight, after that it is simple math.
The ONLY exception to an that is for throttle stop cars. Yep everyones favorite subject. Anyway the farther a car is capable of running under it's index the more MPH they tend to loose. For instance my car will loose 6-8MPH running S/ST vs all out MPH. But MPH is still the best judge of HP.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: RemCharger]
#1762431
02/28/15 12:48 AM
02/28/15 12:48 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
I have a buddy that dynoed 1265 at 622". He wasnt happy, but it was crappy air so he was ok with it. [/quote
I would have been ecstatic. What or who's dyno?
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1762434
03/02/15 05:16 AM
03/02/15 05:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,403
Chesterfield Twp. Mi.
John Burdine
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,403
Chesterfield Twp. Mi.
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Quote:
The BEST Predator head, is not near as good as the BEST 4.840 spreadport Chevy head......plus you are limited on bore because of borespace. It's NOT gonna make the same power.
Monte
I understand, I guess what I'm saying is, if you have a Chevy head that flows the same as your Predator, the chevy would still pick up some power just because the head is over a larger bore.
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: John Burdine]
#1762435
03/02/15 05:32 AM
03/02/15 05:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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No news here. Bore makes HP period. 4.600 bore is gonna make way more power than a 4.500 bore any day.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1762436
03/02/15 01:39 PM
03/02/15 01:39 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
RylisPro
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
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 So why haven't more people used these heads? They may not make the most power but, they still make a ton. I have a set but never used them because back when I got them 6-7 years I knew nothing about engines (still don't) and figured they would be the last set of heads I would ever need. I eventually realized that they are way overkill for road course use. They are a great set of heads but too bad more people never utilized them. I often wonder how far the Predators development would have gone if they were the popular head option? 
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: RylisPro]
#1762439
03/02/15 02:21 PM
03/02/15 02:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
Jerry Kathe
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
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Quote:
Like I said I know nothing about engines, but isn't there a bunch of manufacturers that can make a bigger bore space block? KB, Indy, World, HP, custom billet, etc.?
As far as the Predators looking like a chevy for Mopar guys not using them, to me that is like having your girl looking like Kate Upton and not wanting to bang her.
Have to agree...its not the block....its simple economics.
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