Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1756874
02/18/15 02:35 AM
02/18/15 02:35 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,751 Graham, WA
Polarapete
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,751
Graham, WA
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Honestly, I think everyone here is missing the point...a mild 150 shot of N2O will cost in the neighbor hood of $450 to $500 for the kit and can be installed in a stock motor in an afternoon. My 440 bracket car went from repeatable time after time 12.00 to 11.53 with one shot. Granted everything else I did to the car and the motor (4.88 Gears, Loose Converter, Solid Cam, 850 Holley, Electric Fuel Pump System, 13x31x15 M/T Slicks) made the system work on a sloppy build 440 bracket motor (no blueprinting, no cc'ing the heads, unknown final compression with stock heavy TRW 2355F pistons, Mallory dual point distributor, low performance Accel Coil). And this was in 1983. That makes the beginner NOS system the best bang for the buck. PERIOD.
1986 Dodge Ramcharger 440 2wd, Bracket Racer Under Construction 1998 Ram 2500 QuadCab, new daily driver. 2008 Honda Element 2014 Carry-On 7x14 Cargo Trailer
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#1756880
02/18/15 08:43 AM
02/18/15 08:43 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,265 ohio
ruderunner
master
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,265
ohio
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I wouldn't throw money at this till you figure out what's wrong currently. You should have more punch than implied. Low vacuum at idle concerns me. I would expect at least 16". No power at 5000 is also troubling. If this was a ulti keyway timing set you may be way over advanced btdt and have the broken rockers to prove it.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1756881
02/18/15 09:02 AM
02/18/15 09:02 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,333 Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,333
Prospect, PA
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THe 440 RT was a 15 second car and the Hemi was a mid 14 second car stock. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_6706_dodge_hemi/photo_04.html I have not dialed in the Eddy. Straight out of the box except float and idle circuit tune for max vacuum.
I have a bung on each side. Do I have to do a separate run for each side??
I see a two runs of 15.4 and 14.7 for the RT and the car had the Cleaner Air Package Lots of these cars ran well into the 14s. Don't settle for less!
Reading the article I caught this: "Both cars came with the standard 7.75 x 14 Red Streak tires, and running them this way with two aboard and test equipment netted best quarter-mile times of 15.4 seconds and 94 mph for the Magnum."
You're talking 4-500 lbs of extra weight here, or .4-5 seconds. With CAP.
You do need to look closely at those old track tests. What you describe was common. Actual test weight could be as high as 4300 to 4500 lb.
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: p d'ro]
#1756882
02/18/15 09:28 AM
02/18/15 09:28 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,333 Prospect, PA
BSB67
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
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Prospect, PA
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a little hard to help when we don't know the actual performance of the car. It might be exactly where it should be and your expectations are too high, or the thing is a total turd, we just can't tell.
My experience is when a guy does not know specifics like pistons and compression ratio, it is usually not good, i.e. very low. You should do a cylinder pressure test. Also, it would be helpful to know the cam.
There could be several reasons that it is under performing: 1) like Cab said, fuel delivery. It can rob power like no other, and unless you test it, you won't know. 2) Plugged or internal failure of muffler. This has happened to me twice. That is an instant loss of 30 + hp, but every thing seems fine. 3) Low compression. 4) Poor heads. 5) Poor tune
The factory intake is the biggest bottle neck on an already good running 440. It is done at 5000 and getting the motor to go past 5200 is a challenge.
A good set of 915s with some porting, good cam, decent compression ratio and a good tune will result is a car that runs very well, even with factory intake and the 4327 carb.
I have never raced the car but have driven a mid 14 second car and this is not close. I honestly think my Avalanche would give it a good run. Maybe 16s.
Mufflers new and good exhaust system.
Would I pull 20" vacuum with such low compression?
Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.
For fuel delivery, put a fuel pressure gauge in the fuel line near the carb. Run the line through the gap between the hood and cowl and attach the gauge to the wiper. Do a WOT run and watch the gauge. Report back. Or an O2 sensor
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#1756883
02/18/15 12:46 PM
02/18/15 12:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584 MD
p d'ro
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
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Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle? Check if secondaries are opening, check your full advance timing? Alot of the time the simple stuff is the culprit.
You are right on. It actually was worse before. I had my son hammer pedal to floor and went and adjusted throttle cable. Was not opening all of the way. Timing seems right. Sent distributor to FBO for recurve. He cut out a bunch of mechanical advance. With dialback now I am at 14-16 degrees at idle and 34-36 all in at about 2500 rpm. Once it warms up I will get the A/F in and check it as well as fuel pressure (stock mechanical pump). Maybe my perception is off. I need to mark off a 1/4 mile and see what I get. Not a lot of roads in DC Metro to do this at.. Just seems like it makes a lot of noise and doesn't go anywhere. My 302 3 speed Bronco pulls as hard..
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: BSB67]
#1756884
02/18/15 12:48 PM
02/18/15 12:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584 MD
p d'ro
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
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THe 440 RT was a 15 second car and the Hemi was a mid 14 second car stock. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_6706_dodge_hemi/photo_04.html I have not dialed in the Eddy. Straight out of the box except float and idle circuit tune for max vacuum.
I have a bung on each side. Do I have to do a separate run for each side??
I see a two runs of 15.4 and 14.7 for the RT and the car had the Cleaner Air Package Lots of these cars ran well into the 14s. Don't settle for less!
Reading the article I caught this: "Both cars came with the standard 7.75 x 14 Red Streak tires, and running them this way with two aboard and test equipment netted best quarter-mile times of 15.4 seconds and 94 mph for the Magnum."
You're talking 4-500 lbs of extra weight here, or .4-5 seconds. With CAP.
You do need to look closely at those old track tests. What you describe was common. Actual test weight could be as high as 4300 to 4500 lb.
Aren't 15x7 steel wheels with 255s heavier then the original wheels? I admit traction may have been an issue with their times and with me not breaking loose times should be better.
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: ruderunner]
#1756885
02/18/15 12:52 PM
02/18/15 12:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584 MD
p d'ro
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Quote:
I wouldn't throw money at this till you figure out what's wrong currently. You should have more punch than implied. Low vacuum at idle concerns me. I would expect at least 16". No power at 5000 is also troubling. If this was a ulti keyway timing set you may be way over advanced btdt and have the broken rockers to prove it.
I have 20-22" vacuum at idle. Rockers are all good. Just replaced all wires, plugs, cap rotor, and see no visible issues with rockers and springs. When I pulled old plugs with only 1000 miles on them (about 5 years old) the threads were coated with oil, but the tips all looked the right color. Slightly brownish and relatively clean. Since it was such a PITA, I replaced them anyway.
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: p d'ro]
#1756886
02/18/15 01:01 PM
02/18/15 01:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,066 Eugene, Oregon
minivan
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,066
Eugene, Oregon
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We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...
I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback.. Stock 040 over 440 Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1756888
02/18/15 01:40 PM
02/18/15 01:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584 MD
p d'ro
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Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle?
You are right on. It actually was worse before. I had my son hammer pedal to floor and went and adjusted throttle cable. Was not opening all of the way.
That was it? How much better is it running now with just that 1 change?
Robert, that got to me where I am now. Before it was really bad..
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: minivan]
#1756889
02/18/15 01:42 PM
02/18/15 01:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584 MD
p d'ro
OP
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Quote:
We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...
I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback.. Stock 040 over 440 Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..
I feel your pain. You have my car's twin. 2.94 are good highway gears like mine. Thinking the first thing I will change..
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: BSB67]
#1756890
02/18/15 01:44 PM
02/18/15 01:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,405 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
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Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.
I agree with this. Until you know what cylinder pressure you have, you won't know which way to go for improvements. I'd also ping the builder to see if he can provide cam specs. If it was built with stockish compression (the overbore lowers it, btw, if you use stock height pistons) and he put in a bigger performance cam, then you have a recipe for sluggish response due to low cylinder pressure.
If the cranking pressure is low, the best stealth approach may be to swap cams to one that build more cylinder pressure. more pressure = more power.
However, by all means, dial in the carb and timing. That is never a wasted effort.
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1756892
02/18/15 02:07 PM
02/18/15 02:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584 MD
p d'ro
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
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Quote:
Quote:
Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.
I agree with this. Until you know what cylinder pressure you have, you won't know which way to go for improvements. I'd also ping the builder to see if he can provide cam specs. If it was built with stockish compression (the overbore lowers it, btw, if you use stock height pistons) and he put in a bigger performance cam, then you have a recipe for sluggish response due to low cylinder pressure.
If the cranking pressure is low, the best stealth approach may be to swap cams to one that build more cylinder pressure. more pressure = more power.
However, by all means, dial in the carb and timing. That is never a wasted effort.
Cam:
Brand:COMP Cams Manufacturer's Part Number:SK21-222-4 Part Type:Camshaft Kits Product Line:COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Cam and Lifter Kits Summit Racing Part Number:CCA-SK21-222-4
UPC:036584046622 Cam Style:Hydraulic flat tappet Basic Operating RPM Range:1,300-5,600 Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:218 Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:224 Duration at 050 inch Lift:218 int./224 exh. Advertised Intake Duration:262 Advertised Exhaust Duration:270 Advertised Duration:262 int./270 exh. Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.462 in. Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.470 in. Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.462 int./0.470 exh. Lobe Separation (degrees):110 Camshaft Gear Attachment:1-bolt Grind Number:CRB XE262H-10
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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67
[Re: minivan]
#1756893
02/18/15 02:15 PM
02/18/15 02:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,173 CT
GTX MATT
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Quote:
We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...
I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback.. Stock 040 over 440 Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..
2.94s can really kill a stock setup and make it feel piggy. Its funny, if you put them behind a radical engine it will make it harder/more tempermental to drive, but it will still pour on power and go. Stock stuff really feels better with some gear. I think the most impressed I've ever been with a true stock car was a 383 Road Runner with 4.10s and a 4 speed.
And don't forget most of these cars came with 2.94s and 3.23s came with something like F70-14s which are only around 26.5 inches tall.
To the OP I'm hesitant to say this, but I honestly think 20" of vacuum is a little high for that cam. I really wouldn't be surprised if that cam is not in the engine. Does it have a little gallop at idle or is it really smooth? Again though, it should still fry the tires.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 02/18/15 02:18 PM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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