Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 05:55 AM

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I don't think it is running out of fuel. If it was bad enough that it won't pull in first then it would be completely gasping in second and never make Drive.
Starts, shifts and drives well. Even grabs second every now and again. Less than 500 miles on build. Just no seat in pants pull at all. Much weaker in second..

Did they cut the heads when they rebuilt it? If so, how much? Unknown..
Adjustable rockers? Stock Rockers
If it still has stock rockers and the heads are cut a bunch it could be pumping up the lifters and floating the valves slightly. While we are on the subject of valve train, was the cam degreed?
I doubt the cam was degreed. I will try to find out.

What does it have for compression pressure?
Unknown

Also I would pull the pan and see how far off the bottom of the pan the pickup is. They don't rattle for no reason.
I don;t know what happened. I thought the motor was gone. It has a windage tray. Straight line accel and about 4700 loud knocking. Limped home. Shut down. Restart later. No noise??

Kevin

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 05:57 AM

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(as said) what converter/cranking compression. HP or lowpo ex manifolds? total vehicle weight? I'd want 3.55's or 3.91's. how tall are those tires? non restrictive air cleaner?. with 20" of vac you do have a healthy long block. You might bring the curve in faster (lighter springs) & bottom line-no pinging allowed.

HP exhaust manifolds
255/630/15 Diamondback Redlines
Stock dual snorkel air cleaner with paper filter
1967 COronet RT Convertible

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 05:58 AM

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You may, like a lot of other Mopar car owners, have a fuel delivery problem If you have the stock carb,. off of a 440 it is not to big Trust me on that I would go ahead and put the wideband sytem on the car and use it, it will tell you right away about the fuel supply system, if it starts to go lean at the higher RPM, especially in high gear , it is runing out of fuel Been there done that with all good parts There are a lot of gremlins that can affect fuek delivery, a lot of them Let us know waht you find out

Will do. I have read alot of your posts on 440 issues and will try to get this right..

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 06:03 AM

Quote:

a little hard to help when we don't know the actual performance of the car. It might be exactly where it should be and your expectations are too high, or the thing is a total turd, we just can't tell.

My experience is when a guy does not know specifics like pistons and compression ratio, it is usually not good, i.e. very low. You should do a cylinder pressure test. Also, it would be helpful to know the cam.

There could be several reasons that it is under performing:
1) like Cab said, fuel delivery. It can rob power like no other, and unless you test it, you won't know.
2) Plugged or internal failure of muffler. This has happened to me twice. That is an instant loss of 30 + hp, but every thing seems fine.
3) Low compression.
4) Poor heads.
5) Poor tune

The factory intake is the biggest bottle neck on an already good running 440. It is done at 5000 and getting the motor to go past 5200 is a challenge.

A good set of 915s with some porting, good cam, decent compression ratio and a good tune will result is a car that runs very well, even with factory intake and the 4327 carb.

I have never raced the car but have driven a mid 14 second car and this is not close. I honestly think my Avalanche would give it a good run. Maybe 16s.

Mufflers new and good exhaust system.

Would I pull 20" vacuum with such low compression?

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 06:08 AM

Something is very wrong if flooring off the line won't roast the tires unless you're turning. Thats 318 level performance.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 06:18 AM

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THe 440 RT was a 15 second car and the Hemi was a mid 14 second car stock.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_6706_dodge_hemi/photo_04.html
I have not dialed in the Eddy. Straight out of the box except float and idle circuit tune for max vacuum.

I have a bung on each side. Do I have to do a separate run for each side??

I see a two runs of 15.4 and 14.7 for the RT and the car had the Cleaner Air Package

Lots of these cars ran well into the 14s.

Don't settle for less!

Posted By: Polarapete

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 06:35 AM

Honestly, I think everyone here is missing the point...a mild 150 shot of N2O will cost in the neighbor hood of $450 to $500 for the kit and can be installed in a stock motor in an afternoon.

My 440 bracket car went from repeatable time after time 12.00 to 11.53 with one shot. Granted everything else I did to the car and the motor (4.88 Gears, Loose Converter, Solid Cam, 850 Holley, Electric Fuel Pump System, 13x31x15 M/T Slicks) made the system work on a sloppy build 440 bracket motor (no blueprinting, no cc'ing the heads, unknown final compression with stock heavy TRW 2355F pistons, Mallory dual point distributor, low performance Accel Coil). And this was in 1983. That makes the beginner NOS system the best bang for the buck. PERIOD.

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 06:35 AM

I agree with GTXMatt, your car should be well into the 14's. I ran against a 67 B body at Brainderd this summer with a stock low compression 440 (late 70's), stock intake/manifolds, 3.23's (maybe an RV cam, can't remember what the owner said) and he was running low 15's in 85 degree heat, something's definitely up with yours. As I said my shortbox with a relatively stock 440 (stock intake and tiny factory Holley carb) would blow the tires away with 3.23's (20 mph roll). As said start with a compression check and see where your at

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 07:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

THe 440 RT was a 15 second car and the Hemi was a mid 14 second car stock.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_6706_dodge_hemi/photo_04.html
I have not dialed in the Eddy. Straight out of the box except float and idle circuit tune for max vacuum.

I have a bung on each side. Do I have to do a separate run for each side??

I see a two runs of 15.4 and 14.7 for the RT and the car had the Cleaner Air Package Lots of these cars ran well into the 14s. Don't settle for less!

Reading the article I caught this: "Both cars came with the standard 7.75 x 14 Red Streak tires, and running them this way with two aboard and test equipment netted best quarter-mile times of 15.4 seconds and 94 mph for the Magnum."

You're talking 4-500 lbs of extra weight here, or .4-5 seconds. With CAP.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 08:10 AM

Another victim of the 750 Eddy carb. I dint know what size your Carter is but use a 750 version or the newer 800 avs. The rest of the low hanging fruit has been pointed out. My money is on that one part being the biggest culprit though.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 08:53 AM

Do you know if the cam was degreed in or did who ever installed it line up the dots? If it was degreed in where was the intake lobe center installed at in relation to top dead center ? If not degreed in it may be time to do that

BB Mopars love having the cams advanced, I've done a bunch of cam and engine tuning, I've never seena BB mopar like the cam installed straight up, let alone installed 1 or more degrees retarded

Most of the BB Mopar motors I've played with cam timing like the intake lobe timing like between 4 to 6 degrees advanced

Posted By: CokeBottleKid

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 09:07 AM

Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle? Check if secondaries are opening, check your full advance timing? Alot of the time the simple stuff is the culprit.

Posted By: ruderunner

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 12:43 PM

I wouldn't throw money at this till you figure out what's wrong currently. You should have more punch than implied.
Low vacuum at idle concerns me. I would expect at least 16". No power at 5000 is also troubling.
If this was a ulti keyway timing set you may be way over advanced btdt and have the broken rockers to prove it.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 01:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

a little hard to help when we don't know the actual performance of the car. It might be exactly where it should be and your expectations are too high, or the thing is a total turd, we just can't tell.

My experience is when a guy does not know specifics like pistons and compression ratio, it is usually not good, i.e. very low. You should do a cylinder pressure test. Also, it would be helpful to know the cam.

There could be several reasons that it is under performing:
1) like Cab said, fuel delivery. It can rob power like no other, and unless you test it, you won't know.
2) Plugged or internal failure of muffler. This has happened to me twice. That is an instant loss of 30 + hp, but every thing seems fine.
3) Low compression.
4) Poor heads.
5) Poor tune

The factory intake is the biggest bottle neck on an already good running 440. It is done at 5000 and getting the motor to go past 5200 is a challenge.

A good set of 915s with some porting, good cam, decent compression ratio and a good tune will result is a car that runs very well, even with factory intake and the 4327 carb.

I have never raced the car but have driven a mid 14 second car and this is not close. I honestly think my Avalanche would give it a good run. Maybe 16s.

Mufflers new and good exhaust system.

Would I pull 20" vacuum with such low compression?

Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.

For fuel delivery, put a fuel pressure gauge in the fuel line near the carb. Run the line through the gap between the hood and cowl and attach the gauge to the wiper. Do a WOT run and watch the gauge. Report back. Or an O2 sensor

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 04:46 PM

Quote:

Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle? Check if secondaries are opening, check your full advance timing? Alot of the time the simple stuff is the culprit.

You are right on. It actually was worse before. I had my son hammer pedal to floor and went and adjusted throttle cable. Was not opening all of the way.
Timing seems right. Sent distributor to FBO for recurve. He cut out a bunch of mechanical advance. With dialback now I am at 14-16 degrees at idle and 34-36 all in at about 2500 rpm.
Once it warms up I will get the A/F in and check it as well as fuel pressure (stock mechanical pump).
Maybe my perception is off. I need to mark off a 1/4 mile and see what I get. Not a lot of roads in DC Metro to do this at.. Just seems like it makes a lot of noise and doesn't go anywhere. My 302 3 speed Bronco pulls as hard..

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 04:52 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't throw money at this till you figure out what's wrong currently. You should have more punch than implied.
Low vacuum at idle concerns me. I would expect at least 16". No power at 5000 is also troubling.
If this was a ulti keyway timing set you may be way over advanced btdt and have the broken rockers to prove it.

I have 20-22" vacuum at idle. Rockers are all good. Just replaced all wires, plugs, cap rotor, and see no visible issues with rockers and springs. When I pulled old plugs with only 1000 miles on them (about 5 years old) the threads were coated with oil, but the tips all looked the right color. Slightly brownish and relatively clean. Since it was such a PITA, I replaced them anyway.

Posted By: minivan

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 05:01 PM

We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...

I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback..
Stock 040 over 440
Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..

Attached picture 8433302-vertpic5.jpg

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 05:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle?

You are right on. It actually was worse before. I had my son hammer pedal to floor and went and adjusted throttle cable. Was not opening all of the way.

That was it?

How much better is it running now with just that 1 change?

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 05:42 PM

Quote:

We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...

I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback..
Stock 040 over 440
Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..

I feel your pain. You have my car's twin. 2.94 are good highway gears like mine. Thinking the first thing I will change..

Attached picture 8433354-RT1-Copy.jpg

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 05:44 PM

Quote:

Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.

I agree with this. Until you know what cylinder pressure you have, you won't know which way to go for improvements. I'd also ping the builder to see if he can provide cam specs. If it was built with stockish compression (the overbore lowers it, btw, if you use stock height pistons) and he put in a bigger performance cam, then you have a recipe for sluggish response due to low cylinder pressure.

If the cranking pressure is low, the best stealth approach may be to swap cams to one that build more cylinder pressure. more pressure = more power.

However, by all means, dial in the carb and timing. That is never a wasted effort.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 05:50 PM

Stock compression on a 67 HP440 is 10:1 isn't it? So even with it being a little lower from being bored it should have plenty enough compression to make good power. I would get the make/model of the piston used for the build. If all the parts check out then I would look a cam/valvetrain issues, something as simple as rocker arm adjustment being too tight can rub power and really make it lazy on the big end. You gotta know what is in your engine, how it works together and how it is set up.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 06:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.

I agree with this. Until you know what cylinder pressure you have, you won't know which way to go for improvements. I'd also ping the builder to see if he can provide cam specs. If it was built with stockish compression (the overbore lowers it, btw, if you use stock height pistons) and he put in a bigger performance cam, then you have a recipe for sluggish response due to low cylinder pressure.

If the cranking pressure is low, the best stealth approach may be to swap cams to one that build more cylinder pressure. more pressure = more power.

However, by all means, dial in the carb and timing. That is never a wasted effort.

Cam:

Brand:COMP Cams
Manufacturer's Part Number:SK21-222-4
Part Type:Camshaft Kits
Product Line:COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Cam and Lifter Kits
Summit Racing Part Number:CCA-SK21-222-4

UPC:036584046622
Cam Style:Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range:1,300-5,600
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:218
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:224
Duration at 050 inch Lift:218 int./224 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:262
Advertised Exhaust Duration:270
Advertised Duration:262 int./270 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.462 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.470 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.462 int./0.470 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):110
Camshaft Gear Attachment:1-bolt
Grind Number:CRB XE262H-10

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 06:15 PM

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We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...

I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback..
Stock 040 over 440
Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..

2.94s can really kill a stock setup and make it feel piggy. Its funny, if you put them behind a radical engine it will make it harder/more tempermental to drive, but it will still pour on power and go. Stock stuff really feels better with some gear. I think the most impressed I've ever been with a true stock car was a 383 Road Runner with 4.10s and a 4 speed.

And don't forget most of these cars came with 2.94s and 3.23s came with something like F70-14s which are only around 26.5 inches tall.

To the OP I'm hesitant to say this, but I honestly think 20" of vacuum is a little high for that cam. I really wouldn't be surprised if that cam is not in the engine. Does it have a little gallop at idle or is it really smooth? Again though, it should still fry the tires.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 06:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...

I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback..
Stock 040 over 440
Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..

2.94s can really kill a stock setup and make it feel piggy. Its funny, if you put them behind a radical engine it will make it harder/more tempermental to drive, but it will still pour on power and go. Stock stuff really feels better with some gear. I think the most impressed I've ever been with a true stock car was a 383 Road Runner with 4.10s and a 4 speed.

And don't forget most of these cars came with 2.94s and 3.23s came with something like F70-14s which are only around 26.5 inches tall.

To the OP I'm hesitant to say this, but I honestly think 20" of vacuum is a little high for that cam. I really wouldn't be surprised if that cam is not in the engine. Does it have a little gallop at idle or is it really smooth? Again though, it should still fry the tires.

It better be in the engine! I have the card in hand and paid for it. Maybe the old switcharoo? This is a mild cam similar to stock. It has a little lope to it.
I couldn't pull this much vacuum with pistons sitting too low, could I?

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 07:00 PM

IMO no, if that was an 8:1 engine I don't think you could pull 20 inches with it. I'd honestly expect more like 17 inches with that cam, but you've got your initial timing set pretty well assuming the mark is right. So its possible, I'd just expect less. More is good if you do have the right cam, just wondering if they put a sealed power lo po cam in or something. Really its neither here nor there, because it would still run better regardless.

As has been said run the cranking compression test. It doesn't mean anything if its high, but if its low you have problems (I know sounds encouraging doesnt it?). And get the 02 in. Do you know anyone with a carb you can borrow?

One more question, you DID unplug the vacuum advance when you set the timing right? And did you verify your total with the light, or assume it to be correct based off of the info on the distributor?

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 07:20 PM

By the way, I will try to do the compression test myself. Some of the plugs were a [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] and there is no way to get them out without having wrist pressed on exhaust manifold. Does this have to be done hot? If so, how? Also, do all plugs need to be removed? Sorry for the rookie tech questions.. Never done the test.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 07:30 PM

Technically, by the book, yes it is supposed to by hot. Yes all the plugs are supposed to be out.

In my experience on hydraulic cammed engines with cast pistons hot vs cold doesn't really matter. And cast iron manifolds take FOREVER to cool off.

In my experience 1 plug removed yields the same results as all plugs removed.

Try it cold because its so much easier, and go one plug at a time if you like. If its low then worry about if you need to do it warm or not.

Posted By: ruderunner

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 07:43 PM

Never mind my low vacuum comment, too early and I saw 14" and 20degrees...

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 08:54 PM

What is the idle rpm? Maybe set high enough as a crutch that the vacuum is artificially high. Could all tie back to a too tight convertor for this cam. Or massive vacuum leaks.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/18/15 09:27 PM

Quote:

What is the idle rpm? Maybe set high enough as a crutch that the vacuum is artificially high. Could all tie back to a too tight convertor for this cam. Or massive vacuum leaks.

I tracked a minor vacuum leak to the booster check valve. Fixed it. Sprayed brake cleaner everywhere and find nothing else. Car runs super cool never over 190 in mid summer DC heat. RPM at 850 set to max vacuum, screws out about 1.75 turns each. Car idles great and doesn't roam.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 12:06 AM

Quote:

One more question, you DID unplug the vacuum advance when you set the timing right? And did you verify your total with the light, or assume it to be correct based off of the info on the distributor?

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 01:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

One more question, you DID unplug the vacuum advance when you set the timing right? And did you verify your total with the light, or assume it to be correct based off of the info on the distributor?

I have a dial back light. Pulled distributor advance hose and plugged. Have 14 to 16 initial. Set light to 36 and pulled throttle. Lines came together at about 2500 rpm. Engine was warm.
I have never replaced the chrome box since I have owned the car. I wonder if it here is an issue there. It doesn't seem to break down. Always seems to run fine now, just not super strong. I may get a new box since I replaced the rest of the tune parts and just keep old as a back up..

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 05:25 AM

For a reference point, I took my 69 RT out today with a tired, poorly running, bogging 77 trooper 440 with the stock truck converter and 3.23 sure grip, 27ish inch tall tires (gear killer) and 9.5 inches of rubber to the ground on each side. From a dead stop warm I can stump it and it will leave 2 black marks for an easy 2 car lengths and roll smoke of the tires, if I flex up against the convertor and cut it lose I can pretty much make them go up in smoke. I say all this to point out that even if your compression is junk a reasonably tuned 440 much less a fresh one should have plenty of torque to break the tires loose. I think you are dealing with more than just low compression, cause I know mine is nowhere near 8:1.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 05:28 AM

I don't think any of the HP, Magnum, 375 HP 440 where 10.0 to one except the 1970 440-6 pak 390 HP motors that had the advertised deck hieghts of +.005 above the decks, all the rest of the 375 HP 440 HP Magnums had around 9.2 to 1 compression ratio or lower from the factory due to combustion chamber sizes being way bigger than blueprint specs., same thing on the deck hieghts, way lower than blueprint specs.

OP, that 262H cam is a known little bitty baby cam

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 07:53 AM

That cam is correct for his combo. No reason for the car to be a soft performer as described. Its a 440 not a 318.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 04:03 PM

My friend in HS/College had a 70 340 Swinger that ran 12.4 and did not break loose the tires. He did have wide MT street tires and it hooked like crazy, almost snapping your neck.

I don't think there is anything majorly wrong with it, just feel it should do better. Once it warms up and I can get a compression test, fuel pressure gauge, and A/F on it, I guess I will know more.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 07:04 PM

Quote:

I don't think any of the HP, Magnum, 375 HP 440 where 10.0 to one except the 1970 440-6 pak 390 HP motors that had the advertised deck hieghts of +.005 above the decks, all the rest of the 375 HP 440 HP Magnums had around 9.2 to 1 compression ratio or lower from the factory due to combustion chamber sizes being way bigger than blueprint specs., same thing on the deck hieghts, way lower than blueprint specs. OP, that 262H cam is a known little bitty baby cam

Cab , that ADVERTISED height would be an NHRA spec and they never were the same as actual factory built.

Then there is ADVERTISED Compression ratio which was also overstated by Chrysler.

Because of the closed chamber the 67 440 had a piston that was probably .080 in the hole, he's lucky if he got those.

With 20" of vac with that small cam is not surprising , his 5k top end is in part because of the 67 intake which is probably the worst of the 440 stock iron 4bbls.

Add me to the performer 750 hate train .

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 08:00 PM

Quote:

My friend in HS/College had a 70 340 Swinger that ran 12.4 and did not break loose the tires. He did have wide MT street tires and it hooked like crazy, almost snapping your neck.

I don't think there is anything majorly wrong with it, just feel it should do better. Once it warms up and I can get a compression test, fuel pressure gauge, and A/F on it, I guess I will know more.

Dude it's way too cold out to be monkeying around on that thing...

You shouldn't need a fuel pressure gauge or A/F meter to tune that car. And a stock 67 440 should smoke the tires even w/ one plug wire pulled. My old 67 GTX w/ mostly stock engine (488 summit cam, CH4B intake) went 13.80's thru the logs and soda straw exhaust. Even w/ the tiny 625 Carter comp carb it would boil the 275/60/15 BFGs. When it warms up I'll try and get by and help ya.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 09:38 PM

Quote:

When it warms up I'll try and get by and help ya.

But it doesn't have a Holley ???

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/19/15 11:57 PM

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Quote:

My friend in HS/College had a 70 340 Swinger that ran 12.4 and did not break loose the tires. He did have wide MT street tires and it hooked like crazy, almost snapping your neck.

I don't think there is anything majorly wrong with it, just feel it should do better. Once it warms up and I can get a compression test, fuel pressure gauge, and A/F on it, I guess I will know more.

Dude it's way too cold out to be monkeying around on that thing... You shouldn't need a fuel pressure gauge or A/F meter to tune that car. And a stock 67 440 should smoke the tires even w/ one plug wire pulled. My old 67 GTX w/ mostly stock engine (488 summit cam, CH4B intake) went 13.80's thru the logs and soda straw exhaust. Even w/ the tiny 625 Carter comp carb it would boil the 275/60/15 BFGs. When it warms up I'll try and get by and help ya.

I will definitely take you up on that offer. Thanks!

So is a rebuilt stock Carter from Scott worth the trouble? I have a 4327s core I could do, but want bang for buck.. I know it will look pretty and fit under the hood on my stock iron manifold, but will it perform significantly better than the Eddy 750. I also like the electric choke on the Eddy. The FBO distributor tune and dialing in of the idle has eliminated the stumble.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 02:07 AM

Quote:

So is a rebuilt stock Carter from Scott worth the trouble?

Not sure I know what you mean by worth the trouble. Carb swaps are pretty easy and fast to do.

If your current carb is functioning properly, there probably won't be a big difference, But I have no idea the current state of what you have.

The 4326 and 4327 are nice carbs IMO. After working on mine a little, I thought it did just about everything better than my 3310, including et and mph on my stock 440. But you would never know it by the seat of your pants. I'll probably get flamed by some 3310 lovers.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 02:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

So is a rebuilt stock Carter from Scott worth the trouble?

Not sure I know what you mean by worth the trouble. Carb swaps are pretty easy and fast to do.

If your current carb is functioning properly, there probably won't be a big difference, But I have no idea the current state of what you have.

The 4326 and 4327 are nice carbs IMO. After working on mine a little, I thought it did just about everything better than my 3310, including et and mph on my stock 440. But you would never know it by the seat of your pants. I'll probably get flamed by some 3310 lovers.

My carb is in new condition. The trouble is sending off the stock Carter to Scott and spending the 400 dollars to restore it, then either going without an electric choke or trying to track down all of the choke stove parts. Not exactly a few minutes. Probably juice noy worth the squeeze? Money probably better spent in gear or heads?

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 02:34 AM

Has anyone used the mobile Car Performance app? Uses gps and gets your quarter mile time,etc. I will give it a go. It should be within .5 seconds, ya think?

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 02:37 AM

A half second is huge in the quarter mile.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 02:49 AM

Quote:

My carb is in new condition. The trouble is sending off the stock Carter to Scott and spending the 400 dollars to restore it, then either going without an electric choke or trying to track down all of the choke stove parts. Not exactly a few minutes. Probably juice noy worth the squeeze? Money probably better spent in gear or heads?

2 differences in your AFB vs. the newer AVS, first is the inlet diameter, carb horn, is smaller ... flow restriction , second is the base plate pattern is smaller meaning a tighter mounting base and I am pretty sure a slight restriction there also. If you are stuck on the cast iron boat anchor intake then switch it to the 68/69.

As far as the electric choke, you can put it on the carter fairly easily , I'm sure Scott has done is many times ...

If it were me I'd get a Thunder series 650 and try that first , it'll be worlds better than the Performer 750 and you'll have a little better throttle response ... it may not do anything for your top end though ??? But how often are you at 5000 plus rpm ???

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 03:22 AM

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Quote:

My carb is in new condition. The trouble is sending off the stock Carter to Scott and spending the 400 dollars to restore it, then either going without an electric choke or trying to track down all of the choke stove parts. Not exactly a few minutes. Probably juice noy worth the squeeze? Money probably better spent in gear or heads?

2 differences in your AFB vs. the newer AVS, first is the inlet diameter, carb horn, is smaller ... flow restriction , second is the base plate pattern is smaller meaning a tighter mounting base and I am pretty sure a slight restriction there also. If you are stock on the cast iron boat anchor intake then switch it to the 68/68.

As far as the electric choke, you can put it on the carter fairly easily , I'm sure Scott has done is many times ...

If it were me I'd get a Thunder series 650 and try that first , it'll be worlds better than the Performer 750 and you'll have a little better throttle response ... it may not do anything for your top end though ??? But how often are you at 5000 plus rpm ???

67 hp intake is the same as the 68.

The cross sectional area would suggest that the air horn is not a restriction. Probably an effect at some point due to the transition into the throttle bores, but not likely at this performance level.

Posted By: Polarapete

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 04:09 AM

Probably the cheapest thing you can do to your 440 powered car that would result in all around best performance would be a smaller cfm four barrel with the electric choke you want so much. We always over carburet our street rides to our dismay.

"but will it perform significantly better than the Eddy 750"

A lot of carbs will do better than the Edelbrock 750cfm #1407 including the smaller versions like their 600cfm #1406 if it is jetted up for performance. I have used both on a mild 440 and the 600cfm gave much better throttle response with a stock converter and gears. Not to mention improved mileage. You could take the metering rods and jets out of the #1407 or any Carter AFB and swap them into the #1406 and avoid paying for the #1487 tuning kit to get the same effect. The #1406 is jetted for economy to begin with and just changing the metering rods makes a big difference. A new #1406 is available all over for less than $325.00

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 05:05 AM

I might just try the 650. I had a motor with a performer and different heads but wanted the correct c440hp motor and stock air cleaner to fit under hood so here I am. Underhood looks awesome so want performance to match..

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 05:32 AM

Can the problems of the 1407 be corrected or is it an insurmountable design flaw?

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 06:58 AM

Quote:

Can the problems of the 1407 be corrected or is it an insurmountable design flaw?

Depends on who you ask, but it seems to but an insurmountable design flaw

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 07:24 AM

I dont know what those carb numbers make them, but you could rebuild one yourself for way less than 400 bucks. If you are wanting it spiffied up for show, it would still be dollars ahead to run it after a rebuild and see if it does what you want. I sure wouldn't buy a smaller carb new to try. A 750 is right for a 383 and definitely for a 440. I happen to like the carter carbs a lot. A 3310 is sweet but the carter design and function is right there and is easier to work with imo on a fine tune. Except the 750 eddy, which is just a POS any way you slice it.

I dont know about your intake other than i ditch the stock ones right away. You might look into a performer not performer rpm version or similar and paint and grind the outside to look more like stock. IIRC those are low enough to clear very close to stock and still work much better along with losing the weight.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 02:44 PM

Quote:

I dont know what those carb numbers make them, but you could rebuild one yourself for way less than 400 bucks. If you are wanting it spiffied up for show, it would still be dollars ahead to run it after a rebuild and see if it does what you want. I sure wouldn't buy a smaller carb new to try. A 750 is right for a 383 and definitely for a 440. I happen to like the carter carbs a lot. A 3310 is sweet but the carter design and function is right there and is easier to work with imo on a fine tune. Except the 750 eddy, which is just a POS any way you slice it.

I dont know about your intake other than i ditch the stock ones right away. You might look into a performer not performer rpm version or similar and paint and grind the outside to look more like stock. IIRC those are low enough to clear very close to stock and still work much better along with losing the weight.

ok, maybe I had the RPM before. I wasn't aware that they had a low profile intake. Maybe in the spring I Will swap the intake, heads and carb. That is something I can do myself (never done heads) hopefully. Just have to study if I can keep the same pushrods and the best stock looking aluminum head for the application, leaving room for more performance later if needed.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 03:31 PM

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Quote:

When it warms up I'll try and get by and help ya.

But it doesn't have a Holley ???

Funny, I've used and have worked on other brands Johnny boy. P'dro Se if you can find a CH4B intake. If you grind the Edelbrock off and paint it blue 95% of people won't know it's not stock. And the Factory air cleaner assembly will fit under the hood. As for the Eddy 750 It should be tunable enough to boil the tires and drive around town w/o getting embarrassed. The problem I've had with them is at the 1/4 mile, they just seem to fall off at 3/4 track where a Holley keeps pulling. That said I do like the factory Carters if you have one buy a rebuild kit and try it on the car.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 03:37 PM

I stil think you need to identify the issue you have now before you through an upper end at it. If you don't fix it, it may be there after all the money and effort.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 04:05 PM

Quote:

I stil think you need to identify the issue you have now before you through an upper end at it. If you don't fix it, it may be there after all the money and effort.

As much of a pain as it is, I will do a compression test when it warms up a little. 1�F here in DC Metro today! Crazy. I will also change oil and cut open filter to see if there are any chunks from when I had the knocking sound. It ran the same before that incident so I don't think that was the issue, although I never found out what it was.
Maybe I am better off taking a chance on one of these nice used motors on Moparts. There seem to be a few 440s that would be nice. Ok, kidding, but it may be in the cards some day.

Posted By: GY3

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 06:16 PM

My carb hierarchy:

Edelbrock: Good for drivability and around town. Down on horsepower when compared to other brands.

Holley: 3310 750cfm vacuum secondary used to be my default carb for a mild street 440. They make good power and get good mileage almost out of the box. I've gotten 14mpg on the highway at 70mph with 3.23's and ran 13.5's at 104mph with a VERY mild combo, stock intake and horrible 60 ft. time. 9.5:1 CR.

Demon: Yes, they had quality control issues there for a while when Barry Grant still owned them (metal shavings) but they are a good carb. I got ahold of a Speed Demon and it's starts and idles when cold much easier than the Holley. According to some of the dyno tests in the archives it flows better and makes more power than all but the best aftermarket carbs as well. I'm very happy with it and wished I'd tried one sooner!

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 07:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Can the problems of the 1407 be corrected or is it an insurmountable design flaw?

Depends on who you ask, but it seems to but an insurmountable design flaw

I wouldn't call it insurmountable ... assuming one doesn't mind spending hours and hours with a wideband , taking the carb on and off , drilling passages , etc ...

I wouldn't be surprised if by just changing the carb to something that is NOT a performer 750 wakes the car up?

The performer 440 intake is basically the same height as the stock iron and weighs probably 20 lbs less , the CH4B is about a 1/2" taller but should have no issue clearing the hood , the one problem with most aftermarket intakes is they think everyone is running dual feed side hung holleys and move the coil mount to the drivers side.

The best intake for an very close to stock look in the OLD Mopar M1 dual plane, it's a copy of the 1970 iron intake in alum.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 07:09 PM

Quote:

My carb hierarchy:

Edelbrock: Good for drivability and around town. Down on horsepower when compared to other brands.

Holley: 3310 750cfm vacuum secondary used to be my default carb for a mild street 440. They make good power and get good mileage almost out of the box. I've gotten 14mpg on the highway at 70mph with 3.23's and ran 13.5's at 104mph with a VERY mild combo, stock intake and horrible 60 ft. time. 9.5:1 CR.

Demon: Yes, they had quality control issues there for a while when Barry Grant still owned them (metal shavings) but they are a good carb. I got ahold of a Speed Demon and it's starts and idles when cold much easier than the Holley. According to some of the dyno tests in the archives it flows better and makes more power than all but the best aftermarket carbs as well. I'm very happy with it and wished I'd tried one sooner!

Good info. I will be lazy and ask if the Holley 3310 needs an adapter for the stock iron intake or the Eddy CH4B? I assume it does..
Also, I have never blocked off the hot air crossover on my steel intakes, but will I need to on an Aluminum one? Probably definitely with the Eddy, right? There is a CH4B on ebay now that has the crossover welded shut already.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 07:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My carb hierarchy:

Edelbrock: Good for drivability and around town. Down on horsepower when compared to other brands.

Holley: 3310 750cfm vacuum secondary used to be my default carb for a mild street 440. They make good power and get good mileage almost out of the box. I've gotten 14mpg on the highway at 70mph with 3.23's and ran 13.5's at 104mph with a VERY mild combo, stock intake and horrible 60 ft. time. 9.5:1 CR.

Demon: Yes, they had quality control issues there for a while when Barry Grant still owned them (metal shavings) but they are a good carb. I got ahold of a Speed Demon and it's starts and idles when cold much easier than the Holley. According to some of the dyno tests in the archives it flows better and makes more power than all but the best aftermarket carbs as well. I'm very happy with it and wished I'd tried one sooner!

Good info. I will be lazy and ask if the Holley 3310 needs an adapter for the stock iron intake or the Eddy CH4B? I assume it does..
Also, I have never blocked off the hot air crossover on my steel intakes, but will I need to on an Aluminum one? Probably definitely with the Eddy, right? There is a CH4B on ebay now that has the crossover welded shut already.

you need a SPACER for a holley on a 67-69 stock intake but not on the CH4B , blocking the crossover is a good idea considering how easy the gas boils , but not necessary. You can just run a valley pan that is blocked.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 10:19 PM

Ok, I might have a line on a barely used Holley SD dual plane and Holley 650 vac sec. I am hoping that will fit and wont have the same fuel boil issues a Eddy does.. Was also told that 440 source had good heads that look stock when painted turquoise...

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 10:34 PM

Quote:

Ok, I might have a line on a barely used Holley SD dual plane and Holley 650 vac sec. I am hoping that will fit and wont have the same fuel boil issues a Eddy does.. Was also told that 440 source had good heads that look stock when painted turquoise...

easy killer lets fix what you have now 1st. EVEN with that carb it should run pretty well. Does the SD have the stock coil mount location?

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 11:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, I might have a line on a barely used Holley SD dual plane and Holley 650 vac sec. I am hoping that will fit and wont have the same fuel boil issues a Eddy does.. Was also told that 440 source had good heads that look stock when painted turquoise...

easy killer lets fix what you have now 1st. EVEN with that carb it should run pretty well. Does the SD have the stock coil mount location?

I think the answer is no and I would have to maybe get the six pack bracket or make one. I also now think this one may be a hair too tall.
Do you know if the M1 bolts up to a holley??

Posted By: Twostick

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/20/15 11:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, I might have a line on a barely used Holley SD dual plane and Holley 650 vac sec. I am hoping that will fit and wont have the same fuel boil issues a Eddy does.. Was also told that 440 source had good heads that look stock when painted turquoise...

easy killer lets fix what you have now 1st. EVEN with that carb it should run pretty well. Does the SD have the stock coil mount location?

You need to verify what you have to start with before you spend a dime on parts.

This means at the very least, a compression test. Just because you were told the engine is fresh doesn't mean it is or was assembled correctly. If you assume because it is fresh it will have 150 psi and when you check it you find it only has 90, or they are all over the place, you just found your problem.

The engine does NOT need to be hot to do this. If they are all 80-90 psi (low) cold or some good some horrible, warming it up isn't going to cure that. If it is low or not consistent, you need to find out why.

If it actually has good compression then you need to next confirm why it started knocking. That stuff does NOT heal itself. Did it lose oil pressure and scorch the rod bearings or did it float the valves?

Lots of stuff to check and the ONLY thing I would assume at this point is that everything that can be, is FUBAR.

Kevin

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 01:03 AM

[quoteeasy killer lets fix what you have now 1st.

This is the best advice so far and he is even willing to help you find it. Relax, ya'll probably aint driving it for awhile yet up there anyway.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 02:03 AM

Quote:

you need an adaptor for a holley on a stock intake.....

Not sure I understand why you need an adaptor?

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 02:37 AM

Quote:

[quoteeasy killer lets fix what you have now 1st.

This is the best advice so far and he is even willing to help you find it. Relax, ya'll probably aint driving it for awhile yet up there anyway.

As soon as we can get some rain to take the salt off of the road. Now ice snow salt yuck. I bet the tires will break loose when ten degrees outside. I have been in my frozen garage doing plugs etc.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 03:24 AM

Quote:

[quoteeasy killer lets fix what you have now 1st.

This is the best advice so far and he is even willing to help you find it. Relax, ya'll probably aint driving it for awhile yet up there anyway.

noooo kidding 8* right now and 4-6" of snow heading this way tomorrow. With all the salt they've been laying down Mine won't see the road until late March.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 03:57 AM

I feel ya, it was only mid-50s here today.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 05:42 AM

Quote:

I feel ya, it was only mid-50s here today.

i know. I have a friend who is an old timer and he is inCocoa beach for a few weeks. He was supposed to go to an apparently good swap meet in zephyr hills, wherever that is,and was going to lookout for a cheap manifold. He said it got way too cold and windy. But that wont stop him from working out with the Nationals tomorrow! He has connections..

Posted By: GY3

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 04:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

you need an adaptor for a holley on a stock intake.....

Not sure I understand why you need an adaptor?

On the '67 and '71 intakes I didn't need an adapter.

I did use a 1/2" phenolic spacer.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 09:15 PM

Quote:

Ok, I might have a line on a barely used Holley SD dual plane and Holley 650 vac sec. I am hoping that will fit and wont have the same fuel boil issues a Eddy does.. Was also told that 440 source had good heads that look stock when painted turquoise...

NOT GOING TO FIT WITH YOUR STOCK AIR CLEANER PERIOD

CH4B is taller so if you have a problem now forget that .

Performer ... not RPM , or OLD M1

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 09:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

you need an adaptor for a holley on a stock intake.....

Not sure I understand why you need an adaptor?

I meant to say SPACER

Because a Holley has parts hanging below the carb base that will hit the 67-69 intake , this is why Mopar didn't run a single 4bbl holley before 70 , the 70 intake heat riser was lowered and a Holley will fit.

Because he is stuck on stock only certian parts will work.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 09:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

you need an adaptor for a holley on a stock intake.....

Not sure I understand why you need an adaptor?

On the '67 and '71 intakes I didn't need an adapter.

I did use a 1/2" phenolic spacer.

When I said adaptor I meant SPACER

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/21/15 09:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

you need an adaptor for a holley on a stock intake.....

Not sure I understand why you need an adaptor?

I meant to say SPACER

Because a Holley has parts hanging below the carb base that will hit the 67-69 intake , this is why Mopar didn't run a single 4bbl holley before 70 , the 70 intake heat riser was lowered and a Holley will fit.

Because he is stuck on stock only certian parts will work.

I agree. Ok M1 or Performer. I am not using the heat riser. Was going to try compression test today but twenty degrees and six inches of snow and counting. Not going to Advance auto today.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/22/15 01:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

you need an adaptor for a holley on a stock intake.....

Not sure I understand why you need an adaptor?

I meant to say SPACER

Because a Holley has parts hanging below the carb base that will hit the 67-69 intake , this is why Mopar didn't run a single 4bbl holley before 70 , the 70 intake heat riser was lowered and a Holley will fit.

Because he is stuck on stock only certian parts will work.

Spacer, yes.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/22/15 06:03 PM

as for fit, you can use a drop base and your stock lid. Paint the base black and roll. I had a CH4B 1/2" spacer and 625 Carter on my GTX w/ Stock assembly...well 2/3rds anyway. I ran a drop base, painted black. I Also ran the same set-up on a 67 Coronet w/ a Holley 750DP and it fit as well.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/22/15 06:36 PM

Quote:

as for fit, you can use a drop base and your stock lid. Paint the base black and roll. I had a CH4B 1/2" spacer and 625 Carter on my GTX w/ Stock assembly...well 2/3rds anyway. I ran a drop base, painted black. I Also ran the same set-up on a 67 Coronet w/ a Holley 750DP and it fit as well.

Ok, I thought the stock one dropped it pretty low. Where can I find one?

Posted By: quickd100

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/22/15 07:32 PM

I dyno'd a 440 I built for a friend many years ago last summer. It was 8.9-1 (at the time of the build we were looking at 89.5 octane fuel), 906 heads with just a cleanup, factory intake, carb, exhaust, and a MP .474 'hemi grind cam'. Motor was supposed to be dyno'd on 91 octane fuel but due to a mixup we used 100+ octane which lowered the numbers a bit. It made 386hp@5300 and 462.9ftlbs@3975rpm. Installing the factory duel snorkel air cleaner assembley DROPPED the hp to 362.9hp and 442.8ftlbs. Just flipping the lid upside down as we all did back in the day brought the hp back up to 380.9hp.
If it was mine, (your motor) I'd install a MP.528 mechanical, recurve the distributer, install a Holley street dominator intake, use the Carter 4327, and use a A/F meter to tune the carb, use an open element air cleaner assembley, install a TA 10" convertor, use a 3.55-3.91 gear, a pinion snubber and clamp the front spring segments. It would be hard to wipe the smile off your face the first time you got on the throttle.Dave

Posted By: deaks

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/22/15 08:46 PM

I had a 67 R/T full weight car with a late 72 engine, factory hi stall converter, felt like 3.23 or 3.55 gears, headers, factory intake, holley 750 V/S It ran 14.3 at 94 mph on slicks and would incinerate the small street tyres from a standstill. My friend bought it from me, then fitted a .509, ported RPM's milled .050, a performer intake and a 2500 stall converter.
He only ran it once best 13.0 at 105 mph. I told him it would be a dog with the .509 and to advance it 4 degrees. I think with more comp, it would have gone low 12's to high 11's. I believe the late 72 engine had the same comp as the 73 which i dont think was even 8.1.
Mick

Posted By: GY3

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/22/15 08:59 PM

Quote:

I dyno'd a 440 I built for a friend many years ago last summer. It was 8.9-1 (at the time of the build we were looking at 89.5 octane fuel), 906 heads with just a cleanup, factory intake, carb, exhaust, and a MP .474 'hemi grind cam'. Motor was supposed to be dyno'd on 91 octane fuel but due to a mixup we used 100+ octane which lowered the numbers a bit. It made [Email]386hp@5300[/Email] and [Email]462.9ftlbs@3975rpm.[/Email] Installing the factory duel snorkel air cleaner assembley DROPPED the hp to 362.9hp and 442.8ftlbs. Just flipping the lid upside down as we all did back in the day brought the hp back up to 380.9hp.
If it was mine, (your motor) I'd install a MP.528 mechanical, recurve the distributer, install a Holley street dominator intake, use the Carter 4327, and use a A/F meter to tune the carb, use an open element air cleaner assembley, install a TA 10" convertor, use a 3.55-3.91 gear, a pinion snubber and clamp the front spring segments. It would be hard to wipe the smile off your face the first time you got on the throttle.Dave

Very good advice!

I had a 71 440 with 452 heads, .528 MP cam, stock intake and headers.

While I didn't dyno, the difference between the dual snorkel and the open element K&N aircleaner (as you pointed out) was startling! I was going for the resto look but decided it was way too restrictive!

So many small things that people overlook or don't do that make a HUGE difference!

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/22/15 09:36 PM

Quote:

as for fit, you can use a drop base and your stock lid. Paint the base black and roll. I had a CH4B 1/2" spacer and 625 Carter on my GTX w/ Stock assembly...well 2/3rds anyway. I ran a drop base, painted black. I Also ran the same set-up on a 67 Coronet w/ a Holley 750DP and it fit as well.

What drop base did you use that the lid . or at least the filter from that assembly and fit ???

You also must have ran a banjo fitting on the inlet of that carter , a stock factory line doesn't work with a drop base ...

It's real easy to say yes it can be done , what parts were actually used ???

Posted By: quickd100

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 12:23 AM

Another note, the Carter 4327 will work fantastic with some tuning. EXPLOSIVE throttle response once it's dialed in. I did beat it with an 850 holley after I did quite a bit more to the motor but at your level the Carter is as much as you need.Dave

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 12:50 AM

Quote:

Another note, the Carter 4327 will work fantastic with some tuning. EXPLOSIVE throttle response once it's dialed in. I did beat it with an 850 holley after I did quite a bit more to the motor but at your level the Carter is as much as you need.Dave

Great advice everyone. I am waiting for the smle. It wds warmer today so i bought the compression tester got sidetracked plastidippingmy broncobwheels. I did get my a/f meter mounted and wired right next to tach so when I cruise i can video both. Unfortunately i couldnt get the bung out that the prior owner pit in. I sprayed some PB blaster on it but no luck. Will apply daily. I dont have a torch and I doubt my heat gun will help. No worries because still salt and snow everywhere.
I am not sure about flipping the lid to the stock air cleaner? Will that work on my 67 dual snorkel?

Posted By: quickd100

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 01:51 AM

YES, flip the lid but you may want to A/F meter in place to get the most out of it.Dave

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 02:10 AM

Flipping your lid may cause hood clearance issues so watch that on the first hood closing and make sure you allow for torque flex.

Posted By: gch

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 03:19 AM

Provided you have the removable lid only and not one of the HUGE earlier dual snorkels where the lid is the whole top part of the air cleaner that runs all the way to the base.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 04:29 AM

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Provided you have the removable lid only and not one of the HUGE earlier dual snorkels where the lid is the whole top part of the air cleaner that runs all the way to the base.

Those are easy to fix air flow restriction just run the base off of a regular Magnum air cleaner.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 06:17 AM

Ok. I have the big dual snorkel..

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 07:38 AM

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Provided you have the removable lid only and not one of the HUGE earlier dual snorkels where the lid is the whole top part of the air cleaner that runs all the way to the base.

In 67 the entire air cleaner top with snorkels is one piece, the base holds the filter and the lid seals to the base.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 03:56 PM

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Provided you have the removable lid only and not one of the HUGE earlier dual snorkels where the lid is the whole top part of the air cleaner that runs all the way to the base.

In 67 the entire air cleaner top with snorkels is one piece, the base holds the filter and the lid seals to the base.

yeah. It shows how often I pull it off. Had it off yesterday and fired up car to try to get exhaust warm and loosen up the bung but no luck. Hopefully

a few more days of pb blaster will do the trick

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 05:18 PM

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Provided you have the removable lid only and not one of the HUGE earlier dual snorkels where the lid is the whole top part of the air cleaner that runs all the way to the base.

In 67 the entire air cleaner top with snorkels is one piece, the base holds the filter and the lid seals to the base.

yeah. It shows how often I pull it off. Had it off yesterday and fired up car to try to get exhaust warm and loosen up the bung but no luck. Hopefully

a few more days of pb blaster will do the trick

Get a torch and heat up the bung that the plug is screwed into otherwise you are just spinning your wheels .

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/23/15 05:22 PM

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as for fit, you can use a drop base and your stock lid. Paint the base black and roll. I had a CH4B 1/2" spacer and 625 Carter on my GTX w/ Stock assembly...well 2/3rds anyway. I ran a drop base, painted black. I Also ran the same set-up on a 67 Coronet w/ a Holley 750DP and it fit as well.

What drop base did you use that the lid . or at least the filter from that assembly and fit ???

You also must have ran a banjo fitting on the inlet of that carter , a stock factory line doesn't work with a drop base ...

It's real easy to say yes it can be done , what parts were actually used ???

The drop base was a summit piece. I might of had to buy the entire air cleaner. Keep in mind this was 10-12 years ago. As for the Holley I turned the fuel line backwards towards the fire wall. The fuel line ran up the back of the block, not the front. I believe with the Carter I bent up my own fuel line.

Posted By: Paul_Fancsali

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/26/15 09:23 PM

Throw in a set of 3.91s or even 4.30s how often do you highway drive it? Now if it truly won't rev past 5K then toss that idea you got something wrong I had a comp 260 flat tappet that reved to 5800 and pulled till 5300 One question what is your total timing at get it up into the 40s and that engine may well wake up Lose the edel carb a good Holley 650-700 dbl pumper is worth at least .2 in the qtr

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 12:35 AM

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Throw in a set of 3.91s or even 4.30s how often do you highway drive it? Now if it truly won't rev past 5K then toss that idea you got something wrong I had a comp 260 flat tappet that reved to 5800 and pulled till 5300 One question what is your total timing at get it up into the 40s and that engine may well wake up Lose the edel carb a good Holley 650-700 dbl pumper is worth at least .2 in the qtr

Timing pings above 36. Curve set and did improve. i will check fuel pressure/flow. I don't do much highway driving so I am sure gears will be instant hit. After I verify compression I think heads, intake and carb are in order. Can I run a Holley 750 vac on a Eddy RPM? Want to stay low..

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 01:41 AM

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...a good Holley 650-700 dbl pumper is worth at least .2 in the qtr

I wouldn't run a DP on a car with a little gear and virtually no stall.

Pedro, your vacuum secondary Holley should bolt up fine not sure how low it will be.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 01:54 AM

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...a good Holley 650-700 dbl pumper is worth at least .2 in the qtr

I wouldn't run a DP on a car with a little gear and virtually no stall.

Pedro, your vacuum secondary Holley should bolt up fine not sure how low it will be.

I had a 800 DP on my nearly stock 440, cast iron intake, 3.23 gear and factory converter. Ran great. In fact I've never removed the carb from the intake and will and have let others borrow it. Those that have used it feel the same and usually ask to buy it.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 02:15 AM

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...a good Holley 650-700 dbl pumper is worth at least .2 in the qtr

I wouldn't run a DP on a car with a little gear and virtually no stall.

Pedro, your vacuum secondary Holley should bolt up fine not sure how low it will be.

I had a 800 DP on my nearly stock 440, cast iron intake, 3.23 gear and factory converter. Ran great. In fact I've never removed the carb from the intake and will and have let others borrow it. Those that have used it feel the same and usually ask to buy it.

And you're welcome to do that, but I wouldn't. Generally you have to dail one back far enough to keep it from bogging or hesitating that you negate the advantage of a DP, where as with a vacuum secondary it will pull what it needs and generally perform better out of the hole and comparable on the big end.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 02:33 AM

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...a good Holley 650-700 dbl pumper is worth at least .2 in the qtr

I wouldn't run a DP on a car with a little gear and virtually no stall.

Pedro, your vacuum secondary Holley should bolt up fine not sure how low it will be.

please. DP can be run on anything. I ran a 750HP on a mild 340 swinger w/ 2200 convert and 3.55's. It ran perrrrfectly. The 750 vac advance would work as well.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 02:34 AM

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...a good Holley 650-700 dbl pumper is worth at least .2 in the qtr

I wouldn't run a DP on a car with a little gear and virtually no stall.

Pedro, your vacuum secondary Holley should bolt up fine not sure how low it will be.

I had a 800 DP on my nearly stock 440, cast iron intake, 3.23 gear and factory converter. Ran great. In fact I've never removed the carb from the intake and will and have let others borrow it. Those that have used it feel the same and usually ask to buy it.

And you're welcome to do that, but I wouldn't. Generally you have to dail one back far enough to keep it from bogging or hesitating that you negate the advantage of a DP, where as with a vacuum secondary it will pull what it needs and generally perform better out of the hole and comparable on the big end.

Not sure what you mean by dial it back. It was a tire fryer at any speed below 30 mph. I don't think I changed a thing on it.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 03:02 AM

[quoteIt was a tire fryer at any speed below 30 mph.

And there may lay the point of disagreement, I generally like my cars to stick and move forward rather than sitting and spinning.

Seriously though, I would not recommend it for a car with little gear and no stall, even in the example Jeff sited it was 3.55s and 2200 worth of stall. It doesn't mean mean it hasn't or cant be done. I've sprayed 200 shot on a stock 440 before but I would recommend it for anyone else to do.

In his case you already have a weak engine with probable/possible low compression. The last thing it needs is a douple shot of fuel at idle, it will fall on it's face.

Dail it back as in small jets, a lot of air gap between the bolt and accelerator pump level on the secondaries, changing the cam to limit the amount of squirt when you stump it from a stop, limiting the amount of pull/opening of the secondaries.

Posted By: quickd100

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 03:22 AM

The carter 4327 is a 750cfm unit, properly set up it will work great, I ran a 1.59 60ft in my old truck with one with a mild low compression 440.Dave

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 04:26 AM

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Dail it back as in small jets, a lot of air gap between the bolt and accelerator pump level on the secondaries, changing the cam to limit the amount of squirt when you stump it from a stop, limiting the amount of pull/opening of the secondaries.

Wow. I'm at a loss for words. Maybe that is why you have problems with DPs

Anyways, If you have a specific example and personal experience regarding a DP in a similar situation as the OP, just share it. He can decide for himself.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 11:42 AM

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The carter 4327 is a 750cfm unit, properly set up it will work great, I ran a 1.59 60ft in my old truck with one with a mild low compression 440.Dave

I do like them. Pretty impressive 60 ft.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 01:29 PM

A double pumper will be fine. Not what i would run for this combo but it would work.

Since he has a 750 avs, that is a fine choice. OP, get a rebuild kit and we will walk you through it if needed. Once you prove it out, the resto job can be done later for looks.

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 03:05 PM

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If you have a specific example and personal experience regarding a DP in a similar situation as the OP, just share it. He can decide for himself.

Well you got me there cause I learned in my teens not to do it, probably 5 years before I got my first 440, but I have seen it on too many other engines. But there again, mostly racing so might that might effect my view.

But back to the topic, I still feel he needs to daignose the problem first not just throw parts at it based on some internet suggestions.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 03:21 PM

So does everyone agree that the 4327 will perform significantly better yhan the 750 performer? If so hat is the best rebuild kit source?

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 03:55 PM

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Well you got me there cause I learned in my teens not to do it, probably 5 years before I got my first 440, but I have seen it on too many other engines. But there again, mostly racing so might that might effect my view.

Exactly, I read many times not to do it as well. But I've come to find that pretty much everyone who says not to run a DP on the street has never done it...

Posted By: mopar346

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/27/15 04:51 PM

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Well you got me there cause I learned in my teens not to do it, probably 5 years before I got my first 440, but I have seen it on too many other engines. But there again, mostly racing so might that might effect my view.

Exactly, I read many times not to do it as well. But I've come to find that pretty much everyone who says not to run a DP on the street has never done it...

I don't know that never is the right word exactly but I cant say I have run one on a stockish 440 on the street. Some would probably argue that single planes are good on the street in an auto with nos tall as well, but I would disagree with that as well. It just doesn't make sense in my mind to run a set up that is designed to work best at 4500 plus when the cam runs out at 4800 and the motor cant take 5500 too many times and stay together. I like low end grunt to get out of the hole and moving especially on a street car and yes 440s, even the truck ones have plenty of that naturally. Maybe I should say it's not the best choice from my experience.

I will still say diag first then spend money, if the carb is a known issue then address it, even by bolting on a known good one. If that's it then buy the best you can get/afford for the set up. It would be interesting to see what the expects would recommend as far as carb for his set up.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/28/15 02:35 AM

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So does everyone agree that the 4327 will perform significantly better yhan the 750 performer? If so hat is the best rebuild kit source?

I think that I gave you a response to this specific question several days ago.

You do realize that no one can answer your question with certainty, right?

I'm not really seeing a down side to rebuilding the 4327.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 02/28/15 03:18 AM

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So does everyone agree that the 4327 will perform significantly better yhan the 750 performer? If so hat is the best rebuild kit source?

I think that I gave you a response to this specific question several days ago.

You do realize that no one can answer your question with certainty, right?

I'm not really seeing a down side to rebuilding the 4327.

I understand it may be a little better. I have rebuilt two carbs. One old carter that was on my 67 vette and one two barrel autocraft 2100 on my 70 bronco. The vette turned out great but the ford not so great. Not sure why but I dont have a compressor so I use a bucket to soak in, a tiny wire to run thru passages and the canned carb fluid. Since this one is almost fifty years old I am afraid I will miss something that is worn and should be replaced or flat out not know because I have not done one. I think I will give it a vo but wont swap until I get the a/f numbers. Unfortunately I only have a bung on one side so that may be less than optimal.. at least it is on the side that had the knock..

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 03/08/15 11:20 PM

A little progress. Warmer today in DC metro. Had to drill out allen center of bung and then use metal jigsaw blade to cut it out. Got it out finally with minimal damage to threads and got sensor installed. Max vacuum idle tune of carb has about 13.9 reading, which seems fine. Issue will be when I drive it. Too much melt and salt on roads now. Also cut out a little of carpet as it seemed that I was missing about 1/2 inch of travel on throttle that could not be adjusted on carb side. The pedal was not throwing far enough. Maybe that little bit will make a difference. I will update when I can drive it. I will rig my video camera to look at tach and A/F..

Attached picture 8453646-RTAF.jpg

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 - 03/16/15 03:47 AM

I did a little work on it today. Swapped in a new chrome box I had laying around just for kicks, double checked timing, made sure all converter bolts were good (they were), then took for cruise despite having what seems like a small miss at idle. Car ran normally. S/F readings were approximately:
idle: 14.0
steady 2000rpm: 17.0
steady 2500rpm 13.5
steady 3000rpm 13.5
lite throttle under load from 2k-3k: 14.0
WOT 2500-close to 5k:13.0

I have been reading about changing metering rods and jets in the Edelbrock Performer series and will get the kit. I will probably just try to add a step richer but I don't know what I have in there yet.. That will have to wait until next weekend.

Skipped the compression test for now. I know, that should be first. Damn driver exhaust manifold has slight tick again after just doing the remflex. I did retighten after a few heat cycles, and now a few of the bolts were slightly loose. Have to get under to try to reach one closest to firewall, which is a [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean]..

Bought a new coil just for giggles since mine is at least 10 years old and everything else in ignition except distributor is new..

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 (Update) - 04/22/15 02:41 PM

So I pulled the top off of my Edelbrock 750 Performer 1407 last night as I just received the calibration kit in the mail. My A/F readings show lean all the way thru, super lean off idle and now about 15.0 at WOT.Not sure why it changed from before..
The previous owner had dyno tuned this carb to my old motor, which had a little bigger cam and better heads.
It has .113 secondaries, .110 primary jets and a 1457 (.073 x .052) rod. This primary combo isn't even on the Eddy Calibration chart. The closest is spot 26, which is 3 steps lean in cruise and 1 lean in Power. That is with the .110 jet and .073 x .047 rod. My rod is even wider, so I may be 2 steps lean in power. So I decided to set it back to original specs and see where I am at, but I did keep the big secondary jet in since it was so lean at WOT. Probably shouldn't have, but I couldn't test drive it because my practically new OEM positive battery cable broke at the terminal. I have probably had it off 4 times... Bummer.

Posted By: p d'ro

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 (Update) - 05/08/15 07:32 PM

Took car to shop and had compression/leakdown test. All cylinders near 160 but #4, which is at 125 and had 24% leakdown(crankcase), where all others were less than 20%. He thinks I should just drive it for the summer and inspect it in fall/winter as I probably can't hurt it more. Is this the case? Is it probably a cracked ring? One way to find out, right?

Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67