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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: CHAPPER]
#1733203
01/23/15 06:18 PM
01/23/15 06:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,535
Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,535
Fulton County, PA
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How many of the ones who think this petition is such a great idea have been at the track when someone was killed? How many have a friend who was a great guy and had a successful business, but now can't feed or dress themselves? How many have had to help clean up the mess when someone crippled themselves by wrecking a piece of crap with too much horsepower? The only time any motor sports are mentioned in the main stream press is when somebody gets killed or crippled. Great image. No wonder John Q. Public thinks we're a bunch of hilljacks, rednecks, and borderline retards. You Tube is full of stupid crap. That's real helpful for those who are trying to run a clean, buttoned down operation and get some support for it. It's taken a lot of people getting hurt and killed over the years to end up with the rules we have, and frankly, I can't believe we are having this conversation over a $65 set of seat belts. Really? This chart is from the SFI website. Now you can tell me about picking cars up at the junkyard by the belts or the flawed testing process, but until you show me your engineering degree and your own test results proving this wrong, I don't care.  Now if they started a petition to encourage the sanctions to crack down on tracks that have zero tech, let junk go down the track and people to kill and cripple themselves due to their own stupidity, I'll sign that one. That would be infinitely more helpful for everyone.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#1733204
01/23/15 06:24 PM
01/23/15 06:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,163
PA.
pittsburghracer
OP
"Little"John
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OP
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,163
PA.
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So you don't think companies should work towards making a better product
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#1733206
01/23/15 07:50 PM
01/23/15 07:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
How many of the ones who think this petition is such a great idea have been at the track when someone was killed? How many have a friend who was a great guy and had a successful business, but now can't feed or dress themselves? How many have had to help clean up the mess when someone crippled themselves by wrecking a piece of crap with too much horsepower?
The only time any motor sports are mentioned in the main stream press is when somebody gets killed or crippled. Great image. No wonder John Q. Public thinks we're a bunch of hilljacks, rednecks, and borderline retards. You Tube is full of stupid crap. That's real helpful for those who are trying to run a clean, buttoned down operation and get some support for it.
It's taken a lot of people getting hurt and killed over the years to end up with the rules we have, and frankly, I can't believe we are having this conversation over a $65 set of seat belts. Really?
This chart is from the SFI website. Now you can tell me about picking cars up at the junkyard by the belts or the flawed testing process, but until you show me your engineering degree and your own test results proving this wrong, I don't care.
Now if they started a petition to encourage the sanctions to crack down on tracks that have zero tech, let junk go down the track and people to kill and cripple themselves due to their own stupidity, I'll sign that one. That would be infinitely more helpful for everyone.
If I were allowed to take data with me when I retired
I'd be more than happy to show you data that contradicts
this.... but Chrysler doesnt allow data to be taken...
but even with 2" belts they last for YEARS in a car...
otherwise they would fail impact and warranty
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: Eric]
#1733207
01/23/15 08:02 PM
01/23/15 08:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
I'll let you guys imagine how much fun it is to change belts in a ride as tight as the Arrow.. 
i know, and it's not fun 
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#1733209
01/23/15 09:07 PM
01/23/15 09:07 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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Quote:
How many of the ones who think this petition is such a great idea have been at the track when someone was killed? How many have a friend who was a great guy and had a successful business, but now can't feed or dress themselves? How many have had to help clean up the mess when someone crippled themselves by wrecking a piece of crap with too much horsepower?
The only time any motor sports are mentioned in the main stream press is when somebody gets killed or crippled. Great image. No wonder John Q. Public thinks we're a bunch of hilljacks, rednecks, and borderline retards. You Tube is full of stupid crap. That's real helpful for those who are trying to run a clean, buttoned down operation and get some support for it.
It's taken a lot of people getting hurt and killed over the years to end up with the rules we have, and frankly, I can't believe we are having this conversation over a $65 set of seat belts. Really?
This chart is from the SFI website. Now you can tell me about picking cars up at the junkyard by the belts or the flawed testing process, but until you show me your engineering degree and your own test results proving this wrong, I don't care.
Now if they started a petition to encourage the sanctions to crack down on tracks that have zero tech, let junk go down the track and people to kill and cripple themselves due to their own stupidity, I'll sign that one. That would be infinitely more helpful for everyone.
Where is your proof that this graph was done by someone with an engineering degree? Some clown on a computer could have drawed that graph up on a computer to show what they wanted it to show!You have heard Mr_P say that he had done test on belts as well as others and none of us believe that our belts need replacing after 2 years.Do you have any kind of degree that says you know more than the rest of us on here?
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: MRMOPAR622]
#1733212
01/23/15 09:58 PM
01/23/15 09:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,535
Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,535
Fulton County, PA
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Nope, no engineering degree. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But I can show you papers written by engineers and experts in the textile industry confirming that information. Google is your friend. Harness manufactures and SFI have to rely on the people who make the webbing (Dupont) for this information. They can't just make it up.
The 16.1 harness is required in most everything running quicker than 11.50 up to and including Pro Stock and even the fuel classes with the addition of a few mounting points. I would expect the standards to be more stringent for a harness expected to do its job in a 300+ MPH application. Overkill for an 11 second car? Probably. But having 1 spec, instead of multiple specs depending on ET with the resulting confusion, is OK with me. If it was a lot of money, that would be different. You can buy belts for $70.
And I have known guys who had no garage and had their race car sitting on an open trailer beside their house year round. Designers and engineers have to consider worst case situations. Sitting out in the sun in a car in south Florida year round. 300lb. dude driving his Pro Mod into the wall at 260. Any idea of the load put on the restraint system in that scenario?
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#1733213
01/23/15 10:20 PM
01/23/15 10:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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You stuff a 300 lb dude in a Pro-Mod car its not gonna be about keeping him in the car its gonna be more about getting his fat butt back out of the car!  A Pro-Mod sitting out behind a shop a year...no way after about 2 weeks some Jack A$$ will be long gone with it!  Maybe in the "Good O'll Day's you could have left your race car sitting out behind the shop year round,but in the present you can't even leave your oil drain pan out behind the shop with out someone stealing it!I would like to see the SFI make some belts where you could leave your race car sitting behind the shop year round that some thief could not cut and steal your race car!
Last edited by MRMOPAR622; 01/23/15 10:29 PM.
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#1733217
01/23/15 11:14 PM
01/23/15 11:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 524
Mesa, AZ
Bill_T
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 524
Mesa, AZ
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It appears that the manufacturers themselves supply the funding for SFI (started with SEMA). Is the fox guarding the hen house? Note the phrasing in the negative of 16.1: "2.12 The useful life of the webbing in the straps shall not exceed two years and they must be replaced at or before that time. Only the original manufacturer can re-web an assembly prior to re-certifying." Why not: "the useful life of the webbing shall be not less than x years....." Check the Disclaimer: "14.0 STATEMENT OF LIMITATIONS Testing procedures and/or standards contained in this specification are intended for use only as a guide in determining compliance with the minimum performance requirements as defined herein. The granting and assignment of the "This Manufacturer Certifies That This Product Meets SFI Specification 16. 1" logo/designation is in no way an endorsement or certification of product performance or reliability by SFI. SFI, its officers, directors and/or members assume no responsibility, legal or otherwise, for failure or malfunctions of a product under this program." SAE could propound an aftermarket belt or racing standard. They have a number of seat belt standards already. No reason NHRA couldn't petition and adopt that instead.... 
This space not for rent.
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: Bill_T]
#1733218
01/23/15 11:50 PM
01/23/15 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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"14.0 STATEMENT OF LIMITATIONS Testing procedures and/or standards contained in this specification are intended for use only as a guide in determining compliance with the minimum performance requirements as defined herein. The granting and assignment of the "This Manufacturer Certifies That This Product Meets SFI Specification 16. 1" logo/designation is in no way an endorsement or certification of product performance or reliability by SFI. SFI, its officers, directors and/or members assume no responsibility, legal or otherwise, for failure or malfunctions of a product under this program." SAE could propound an aftermarket belt or racing standard. They have a number of seat belt standards already. No reason NHRA couldn't petition and adopt that instead....
Yes indeed... why not use the SAE standards... a
auto company runs MILLIONS more cars with the SAE
standard on the belts... we have to have them last
in most cases(and longer) 10 years(that is the warranty)
for most cars when it comes to the safety... the
saferty equipment in production cars is longer than
the engine/chassis warranty.... can you imagine the
law suits any car company would have with a seat belt
failure..a failure there is easy to spot.. I've been
to court cases for Chrysler on fuel related cases
and in those the belts were still in tact(fire)..
yes they may have melted after the car was sitting
there burning... but still in tact ... just saying
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1733219
01/24/15 01:11 AM
01/24/15 01:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Frankly factory belt specs really don't matter. They are NEVER tight, except in the case of an impact, which may be never. They are not pulled and tugged on through tightening clamps hundreds of times. They are not stressed at the point of attachment, at some odd angles and they are NOT designed to keep YOU and your SEAT, anchored in a car in the event of a high speed........like 200+ mph impact. The vast majority of "street" accidents are at speeds of 40 mph or less. The majority of racing accidents are at speeds in excess of 100mph.
Simple question......if your "street" car were capable of the speeds that your "race" car is, would you be confident in your factory restraint system keeping you in the car, in the event of a high speed crash. If your answer to that is yes.........well I guess that makes you a much braver man than me. Because my answer would be HELL NO. And I don't car if you can pick up a Sherman tank with a stock seat belt......I wouldn't trust it in my race car. Somebody mentioned junkyards pulling motors with stock seat belts..........well I would HOPE so, seeing the average small block is less than 600lbs. When we used to go "junking" all the time, I have pulled motors with some old pieces of rope we found lying around. You know what that means......NOTHING.......unless of course that signifies that we should trust a piece of old rope to be "good enough".........after all, you can pull a motor with it.
Monte
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1733220
01/24/15 01:23 AM
01/24/15 01:23 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Frankly factory belt specs really don't matter. They are NEVER tight, except in the case of an impact, which may be never. They are not pulled and tugged on through tightening clamps hundreds of times. They are not stressed at the point of attachment, at some odd angles and they are NOT designed to keep YOU and your SEAT, anchored in a car in the event of a high speed........like 200+ mph impact. The vast majority of "street" accidents are at speeds of 40 mph or less. The majority of racing accidents are at speeds in excess of 100mph.
Simple question......if your "street" car were capable of the speeds that your "race" car is, would you be confident in your factory restraint system keeping you in the car, in the event of a high speed crash. If your answer to that is yes.........well I guess that makes you a much braver man than me. Because my answer would be HELL NO. And I don't car if you can pick up a Sherman tank with a stock seat belt......I wouldn't trust it in my race car. Somebody mentioned junkyards pulling motors with stock seat belts..........well I would HOPE so, seeing the average small block is less than 600lbs. When we used to go "junking" all the time, I have pulled motors with some old pieces of rope we found lying around. You know what that means......NOTHING.......unless of course that signifies that we should trust a piece of old rope to be "good enough".........after all, you can pull a motor with it.
Monte
Monte... maybe you dont know what the hell your talking
about... BELTS are a containment system.. in your
street car or race car... a street car uses a 2" system
and the race car uses a 3" system... both do the SAME
damn job... the cage keeps you from the big hurt..
I quit.... whether I were to supply you with data
I would be full of SH!T...as usual you MUST be right...
BUT I totally disagree
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Re: Petition to change seat-belt rule from 2 to 5 years.
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1733221
01/24/15 01:40 AM
01/24/15 01:40 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Monte.. lets do this a different way.. a 3" belt has more stretch over a 2" belt... do you agree.. in a race car you are wearing 4.. 3" belts and a 2" dive strap.. do you agree.. in a street car you wear a lap belt of 2" and a single 2" shoulder belt... this simple system keeps a person in the car on impact... as does the 3" system... the cage is what keeps the big hurt off of us.. both in a street car or the race car... the belt keeps you in the seat.. and if the seat mounting is wimpy you STILL get hurt.. but yet no one puts the big value on this(NHRA OR SFI)
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