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Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1708652
12/12/14 11:31 PM
12/12/14 11:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
J
Jerry Kathe Offline
enthusiast
Jerry Kathe  Offline
enthusiast
J

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220



I guess your gonna ALWAYS BE RIGHT... no matter what
anyone says... keep calling it POUNDS of vac.. if
your happy then thats all that counts.... by the
way.. my gauges read both... but in the USA we tend
to use inch of HG... maybe you call it pounds of KPA..
I tried to help you out with just a little info and
thats all.... do what you want





This whole subject matter requires much intense explanation and understanding…..comprehension is critical.
1. A vacuum pump is not intended to seal the piston rings. Fit, finish and cylinder pressure do that job.

2. A vacuum pump is used to control blow-by (pressure) that gets past the rings on the exhaust stroke. (minimal cylinder pressure)

3. Additionally, a vacuum pump is also used to reduce/eliminate ring flutter on all other strokes and allowing them to stabilize for the compression (power) stroke. The cylinder pressure will take over from there. (talking low tension packages)

4. Gain from increased negative pressure (vacuum) is really the result of the increased negative pressure “volume” offsetting the positive pressure that is being developed from what gets past the rings. (more is not better - just a bigger handicap)

5. A vacuum pump and a dry sump pump confuse the oil drain back process – modern technology has found its best NOT use a vacuum pump with a dry sump. If “blow-by” is under control, the dry sump pump can do both jobs – the core of this debate!

A few things I have learned and attempt to share, those comments above are only skimming the science part of the matter. I suggest if you really want to know, pursue learning….I’m way too lazy to type everything involved for a clear understanding.

If you still feel compelled to be sarcastic – get a life.

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: Jerry Kathe] #1708653
12/12/14 11:39 PM
12/12/14 11:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:




I guess your gonna ALWAYS BE RIGHT... no matter what
anyone says... keep calling it POUNDS of vac.. if
your happy then thats all that counts.... by the
way.. my gauges read both... but in the USA we tend
to use inch of HG... maybe you call it pounds of KPA..
I tried to help you out with just a little info and
thats all.... do what you want





This whole subject matter requires much intense explanation and understanding…..comprehension is critical.
1. A vacuum pump is not intended to seal the piston rings. Fit, finish and cylinder pressure do that job.

2. A vacuum pump is used to control blow-by (pressure) that gets past the rings on the exhaust stroke. (minimal cylinder pressure)

3. Additionally, a vacuum pump is also used to reduce/eliminate ring flutter on all other strokes and allowing them to stabilize for the compression (power) stroke. The cylinder pressure will take over from there. (talking low tension packages)

4. Gain from increased negative pressure (vacuum) is really the result of the increased negative pressure “volume” offsetting the positive pressure that is being developed from what gets past the rings. (more is not better - just a bigger handicap)

5. A vacuum pump and a dry sump pump confuse the oil drain back process – modern technology has found its best NOT use a vacuum pump with a dry sump. If “blow-by” is under control, the dry sump pump can do both jobs – the core of this debate!

A few things I have learned and attempt to share, those comments above are only skimming the science part of the matter. I suggest if you really want to know, pursue learning….I’m way too lazy to type everything involved for a clear understanding.

If you still feel compelled to be sarcastic – get a life.




I already quit with this.. I guess I better get a life...
as usual your right... maybe the others are wrong also

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1708654
12/14/14 07:07 AM
12/14/14 07:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
R
RT540 Offline
top fuel
RT540  Offline
top fuel
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
This article by David Reher is interesting.
They made a test with wet sump and a vacuum pump to test the drain back from the heads.
http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-84-dry-sumps-dave-lives/

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: RT540] #1708655
12/14/14 11:48 AM
12/14/14 11:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
J
Jerry Kathe Offline
enthusiast
Jerry Kathe  Offline
enthusiast
J

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
Thanks for posting that RT540, wish I had been aware of this article prior.

The "club members" might of been quite on this and those really interested in getting good feedback could have benefited without all of their unnecessary drama - not that the will ever quit......but....

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: Jerry Kathe] #1708656
12/14/14 08:08 PM
12/14/14 08:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,055
Salina ks
572_dup2 Offline OP
Back On The Bumper!!
572_dup2  Offline OP
Back On The Bumper!!

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,055
Salina ks
Thanks guys for all the good information.


Shawn Jennings
Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: 572_dup2] #1708657
12/15/14 01:38 AM
12/15/14 01:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
D
dakotawilly Offline
mopar
dakotawilly  Offline
mopar
D

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
right,wrong or otherwise,theres a lot of good people on here with knowledge and experience.nobodys perfect by any means,especially myself.the article from rms was very informing and proven with real world numbers so given that fact,opinions are known to start wars,divorces,and household beer volume sales to skyrocket.maybe we all need a little christmas spirit to ward off the start of the cabin fever season.happy holidays......


SFI 25.5 depends,no leak,even at 213 mph....
Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: dakotawilly] #1708658
12/15/14 12:03 PM
12/15/14 12:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi Offline
master
dthemi  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
Well, just for fun the next time you're driving. Cup your hand into about the same shape and size of one of your piston bottom. Now stick your hand in the wind multiply that by 8, and your fighting normal atmospheric pressure. Would be higher than ambient inside your engine without vacuum. Should you be driving on the moon, you'd feel nothing against your hand. Much like really high negative crank case pressure. Also oil droplets don't spray apart under high vac like they do in normal pressure. So less oil fog to help oil the pins as well. Galling wrist pins was common when people started driving the pressure down. Now most people run coated pins, or .002-.003 pin clearance when they plan for real vacuum. Clear evidence of less oil fog.

Drain back, and oil quality are better with a dry system. For whatever reason, I never have oiling related bearing problems wet. Mopar skirted blocks only provide a narrow opening to scrape the crank. Ford and Chevy are a whole different world giving you access to half the crank.

A good dry system is 4-5G, the best wet is 2G For me I'll run it wet with a pump. The 4.5 seconds I'm on the gas isn't going to make a huge difference in drain back anyway, and my bearings NEVER show any sign of wear from frothed oil.

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: dthemi] #1708659
12/15/14 03:05 PM
12/15/14 03:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
R
RT540 Offline
top fuel
RT540  Offline
top fuel
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,664
North Sweden
Yes, and another way of describing. Pistons pump air both up and down.

A dry sump pan with divider walls under each main cap(2, 3 and 4) will add even more protection if one rod would come through the block wall because you now have only two cylinder crankcase to spill oil from the rod and main bearings.

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: dthemi] #1708660
12/15/14 07:52 PM
12/15/14 07:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
U
unknown Offline
mopar
unknown  Offline
mopar
U

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
Quote:

Well, just for fun the next time you're driving. Cup your hand into about the same shape and size of one of your piston bottom. Now stick your hand in the wind multiply that by 8, and your fighting normal atmospheric pressure. Would be higher than ambient inside your engine without vacuum. Should you be driving on the moon, you'd feel nothing against your hand. Much like really high negative crank case pressure. Also oil droplets don't spray apart under high vac like they do in normal pressure. So less oil fog to help oil the pins as well. Galling wrist pins was common when people started driving the pressure down. Now most people run coated pins, or .002-.003 pin clearance when they plan for real vacuum. Clear evidence of less oil fog.

Drain back, and oil quality are better with a dry system. For whatever reason, I never have oiling related bearing problems wet. Mopar skirted blocks only provide a narrow opening to scrape the crank. Ford and Chevy are a whole different world giving you access to half the crank.

A good dry system is 4-5G, the best wet is 2G For me I'll run it wet with a pump. The 4.5 seconds I'm on the gas isn't going to make a huge difference in drain back anyway, and my bearings NEVER show any sign of wear from frothed oil.


Wow, 4-5G for a dry system. I guess that answers my question on if it would be worth buying a system for a 10 second car, maybe 9 second car some day. Guess i will wait on that one.

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: unknown] #1708661
12/15/14 09:50 PM
12/15/14 09:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
C
camastomcat Offline
top fuel
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C

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
They're expensive alright. For a 10 second car, I wouldn't even consider it. I haven't done it yet and I'm right at the limit for needing one. I must say, there is a lot of good information here and I thank all of you for participating in this post. Lot's of smart folks still here, good to know.

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: unknown] #1708662
12/15/14 10:06 PM
12/15/14 10:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,034
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,034
Oregon
I only spent about $500 on the first big-block dry sump setup that I built. I used a wet sump pan with a swinging pickup and just hooked that up to the dry sump. I rounded up a used pump from a circle track team that was upgrading and found a cheap tank from someeone else who was upgrading. I built my own lines and used the cheaper brass and steel fittings rather than the expense aluminum ones. That dry sump setup worked just fine. The pump wasn't big enough to pull much pan vacuum, but the system had good oil pressure and I had all of the benefits of a dry sump. I covered the topic a little bit in this article:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-1206-project-505-the-final-chapter/

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: AndyF] #1708663
12/15/14 10:27 PM
12/15/14 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
U
unknown Offline
mopar
unknown  Offline
mopar
U

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
Quote:

I only spent about $500 on the first big-block dry sump setup that I built. I used a wet sump pan with a swinging pickup and just hooked that up to the dry sump. I rounded up a used pump from a circle track team that was upgrading and found a cheap tank from someeone else who was upgrading. I built my own lines and used the cheaper brass and steel fittings rather than the expense aluminum ones. That dry sump setup worked just fine. The pump wasn't big enough to pull much pan vacuum, but the system had good oil pressure and I had all of the benefits of a dry sump. I covered the topic a little bit in this article:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-1206-project-505-the-final-chapter/


Nice article, thanks for the info.

Re: what gains did you find with dry sump? [Re: unknown] #1708664
12/17/14 02:18 AM
12/17/14 02:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
D
dakotawilly Offline
mopar
dakotawilly  Offline
mopar
D

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
tons of parts and deals on ebay.nascar guys blow thru dry sump stuff then give it away,build your own cheap...


SFI 25.5 depends,no leak,even at 213 mph....
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