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6-PAK Carbs #1691820
10/28/14 10:25 PM
10/28/14 10:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
70Challengerse Offline OP
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70Challengerse  Offline OP
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Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
Is there an easy way to adjust the idle mixture on the rear carbs (tool maybe) with out removing them... why would anyone face them forward with no room to get to them...

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 70Challengerse] #1691821
10/28/14 11:26 PM
10/28/14 11:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline
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62maxwgn  Offline
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Blair County,PA
Someone made a tool but I don't remember who.You can reverse them front to rear adjust and put them back or but a Promax base with angle adjustments.If they are not new,be careful with the screws,the cork seal gets rock hard and the head comes off real easy.

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 62maxwgn] #1691822
10/29/14 01:00 AM
10/29/14 01:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,963
Wisconsin
Stewpar Offline
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Wisconsin


Admiration For Multiple Carburetor Vehicles...
Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: Stewpar] #1691823
10/29/14 12:28 PM
10/29/14 12:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,319
Ohio
J
jlatessa Offline
pro stock
jlatessa  Offline
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J

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Posts: 1,319
Ohio
I bought that tool for our rear carb., works great!

Joe

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 70Challengerse] #1691824
10/29/14 02:37 PM
10/29/14 02:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,352
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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Bend,OR USA
Pull all three carbs off the motor and work on the outboards on the work bench Turn the idle mxiture screws in very carefully and gently to make them barely bottom out, turn them back out 1/3 to 3/4 of a turn, depends on where you live and the altitude, if high(above 3500 Ft) and wet(high humidity year around)) altititude then start with 1/3 turn out. If low altitude and dry weather start with 3/4 urns out On the center carb. with a stock style cam try 1 1/2 to 2.0 turns out from gently bottomed out You can play with the front outboard carb and the center carb. idle adjustment for the final fine tune I back the idle speed screw out all the way on the center carb. and start the motor up, if it idles decent do your final idle mixture tuning at that time and then set the idle RPM up offethe center carb. idle speed screw if it is to low, if it is to high look at adjusting the outboard carb. linkage to get them to close all the way Good luck Let us know how you do and how this works out


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: Cab_Burge] #1691825
10/30/14 12:35 AM
10/30/14 12:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
70Challengerse Offline OP
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70Challengerse  Offline OP
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Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
Carbs work great as far as drive ability , idle is alittle rich carbs were rebuilt before I got them, had a friend following and when were stopped for a period of time, he said it was really rich, only ever touched the primary, never adjusted the outboards..

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 70Challengerse] #1691826
10/30/14 03:38 AM
10/30/14 03:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,352
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
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Bend,OR USA
Check the 3 float levels first and then the center carb. for a blown power valve if the floats are set correctly


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 70Challengerse] #1691827
10/30/14 11:56 AM
10/30/14 11:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline
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Blair County,PA
Quote:

Carbs work great as far as drive ability , idle is alittle rich carbs were rebuilt before I got them, had a friend following and when were stopped for a period of time, he said it was really rich, only ever touched the primary, never adjusted the outboards..




Lean will also give you the impression they are rich as far as odor if that is what you are refering to,adjust the outboards as recommended.

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 62maxwgn] #1691828
10/30/14 12:26 PM
10/30/14 12:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
70Challengerse Offline OP
master
70Challengerse  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
Quote:

Quote:

Carbs work great as far as drive ability , idle is alittle rich carbs were rebuilt before I got them, had a friend following and when were stopped for a period of time, he said it was really rich, only ever touched the primary, never adjusted the outboards..




Lean will also give you the impression they are rich as far as odor if that is what you are refering to,adjust the outboards as recommended.



Black smoke when I step on it , but I will do the recommendations , btw got the tool coming...

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 70Challengerse] #1691829
10/30/14 01:58 PM
10/30/14 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
Mr Wizzard
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Spokane Washington
Also, don't forget to be sure your choke is functioning properly

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #1691830
10/30/14 02:19 PM
10/30/14 02:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
70Challengerse Offline OP
master
70Challengerse  Offline OP
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Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
Quote:

Also, don't forget to be sure your choke is functioning properly



Wired open... we don't need no stinken choke....

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #1691831
10/30/14 06:14 PM
10/30/14 06:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
jbc426 Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
Run the mechanical carbs, and don't worry about it. It idles off the center carb only.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: jbc426] #1691832
10/30/14 08:30 PM
10/30/14 08:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,472
Answering the call of the wild
T
ThermoQuad Offline
top fuel
ThermoQuad  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,472
Answering the call of the wild
Be careful whose advice you try. Even thought this is the computer age the other contributors to this thread are unable to save on their pc a simple document you will find below. Apparently surfing the internet is all they can do as copy and save as a word doc for future reference and to help others while posting on their fav web site is not possible.

If you want to fix your carbs the info is here. Your baseline set up is wrong.
This is a guide to tune six packs for street engines.
Revised 10-2012
Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block.
Never the final word, but close enough for now, it gets updated from time to time.

WARNING

Gasoline is flammable and will burn you

Carbon monoxide is produced from running cars
Esp. improperly tuned six pak cars.

USE A CO ALARM IN THE WORK AREA!!!!!!!!



This is not for the faint of heart. If you wondered why people shy away from six paks just read on.

When tuned properly Six pak cars turn on! faster & run far better than single 4 barrel cars exc a thermoquad. If you want your six pak car to run like it should do the dance and have the right tools to make it happen. Patience must be used throughout the process. Much of the information here can be used on a 4 barrel as well.

Some theory of operation:

Things to Remember:

Six pak engines run AND idle on all three carbs at all times.

The outboard are always contributing fuel…always

Only the center carb has an acceleration pump

The car must idle and run/drive like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.

Whacking the throttle in neutral to see if the outboards open is not a legitimate test!!!

Over jetting will not allow you to get the idle mixture correct as the jet size does contribute to what happens in the idle circuit. Please review the theory of operation in the Mopar Performance Engine book.

Tools needed: A good vacuum gage, quality tach in the car and dial back timing light/digital tach [snap on timing light with numeric readout].

A good ignition system.

MSD, Mallory chrome mopar box, NO orange boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80’s vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
Firecore spark plug wires
Spark plugs of the proper heat range. Clean and gapped
0.040 mopar box
0.050 msd cd type ignition
Engine well grounded to the body & battery.
Vacuum adv distributor with heavy enough springs to hold advance until 1200 rpm.
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb


ATTENTION -195 degree high flow thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT

60%water-40% coolant with a bottle of water wetter
Stewart components has the best thermostats

Pay attention here: If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake. That fuel burns off in the cruise mode and the air-fuel mixture goes lean.
This is transparent unless the a-f ratio is being monitored with a wideband a-f meter
There will be problems getting it to idle and drivability.

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the leading edge of the rotor with the LEADING EDGE of the cap contact-this is one reason the phasing was checked.
Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required
Connect vacuum gauge to direct manifold vacuum source.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Automatic cars: be sure there is enough stall in the torque converter or the car may be a real pig idling in gear and have poor get-up & go.

Beware of mopar orange ignition control boxes that retard the timing etc. Orange boxes built after 1988 tend to have issues.

Preparation: on the work bench
Outboards: Remove the lead plugs
Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them before the 1/8 setting. Gently is the word. If you look inside the carb bore you will see the needles poking in ever-so-slightly. They should be equal.

Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read.
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read.
Yes I repeated that, explained way below

If you have the jetable metering plates, If so read their instructions and follow them.

Center carb
Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [Carb will have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.

If you have new carbs (untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve. Starting point jetting stock 340 use 62’s, highly modified or stroker use 64’s, big blocks start with 64, stroker 65.

You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required.

Temporarily change out the brass sight plug on the fuel bowls (all 3) with clear sight plugs, to see the float level without any gas spills. See thru sight plugs deteriorate quickly so use only as a tuning aid. Do not leave them installed on the carbs.

Do not use an idle solenoid to set idle rpm.
A properly tuned car will have no “run on” issues

Factory style linkage, no progressive/ mechanical linkages!
Installation: use the gaskets made by oh company spec p/n
Do not over torque bolts.
Make sure the linkage is set properly. The rods should fall into the hole on the carb lever at the idle setting position.
Check the linkage for any binding, manually open the center carb to wot and see if the secondaries will rotate open.
Have an assistant floor the gas pedal and check for wide open throttle

Fuel pump: Carter street pump only.
Factory style fuel lines only.
Use rubber hose only for tuning purposes, typically on the front carb as this is the carb you remove to rejet the ctr. .
Fuel filter should be in the stock location.

Ready set go

Start car & allow engine to reach operating temp. Set idle to 1000 rpm

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 900 - 1100 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw.
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut.
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will RAISE fuel level in the bowl,
Clockwise will LOWER it
Make only small 1/2 turns and wait 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level. Patience is a must!!

FUEL LEVELS
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle for 900 rpm
If the car won’t idle:
Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.
Advance the initial timing a bit to see if it helps idle.
Be sure operating temp is 195-210
Be sure there are not light springs in the distributor.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.


Rule of Thumb Chart:
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 8-900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb.

Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum.
This is where the digital [numeric readout] tach is better than the vacuum gage as you can see the instantaneous rpm. If you do not have control over the idle mixture between 1-2 turns out ccw of the mixture screws there are issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding. Over jetting contributes to this problem.

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw and the idle mixture/rpm properly set you may not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further.

If you are 2 turns out on the ctr carb idle mixture screws and the idle is still too lean - the outboards need to contribute more fuel to the idle. Open the idle mixture screws on the outboard carbs another 1/8 turn ccw. Now they will be out a total of ¼ of a turn ccw. Now go back and reset the idle mixture and rpm.
If you need richen the idle mixture-set the idle mix to 1.0 turns out ccw

Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/8 turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening. It’s a balancing act, just remember about the ctr carb and it’s proper settings. Also remember you have ½ turn ccw left in the ctr carb to richen the overall mixture. The end spark plugs will indicate of the out boards are to lean #s 1&7 / 2&8.

If the idle is too rich no matter what you do…Most times you are over jetted or you have other issues. Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control. At idle fuel flows from the float chamber thru the main jet then into a the small angular but horizontal passage that leads across to a vertical passage and onto the idle feed restriction where it is mixed with the air coming in from the idle bleed. Remember this. Do not over jet!

Beware of other issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve, wrong thermostat etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 8-900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm some point and then falling off. In some applications the engine does not care, so see chart.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7. If you don’t like this number set it at your number reading. See how close you are between the vac gauge and af meter and digital tach.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 800-950 depending on engine build, hook up vac adv and make sure car still runs/drives properly.

How do you know when you are "there”?
If the car gets up and goes seamlessly you are there
The engine when hot soaked restarts immediately without touching the throttle
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean and white.
The engine when cold starts easily runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
When the engine is rev’d and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.
The vacuum advance is hooked up and the car drives well.

OK if you made it this far it’s time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.
Some cars may enjoy a lighter spring.

The secondaries rods should be disconnected and removed and the vac signal blocked.

Please do this safely and with regard for others….
Go out and drive the car on the center carb and determine what rpm the car starts to fall off in power. Take note.
The car should have a ton of power just with the center carb.
Be sure to several wot runs.
Please do this safely and with regard for others…

Reconnect carb linkage and vac lines; be sure to set the length of the rods properly.
Now go for a drive and see what rpm the six pak hits.
Please do this safely and with regard for others….
Hold first gear or 2nd gear, run up to 2500 rpm, and floor it. What should happen is the secondaries open without any hesitation and the cars gets up and really goes.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced.

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top. Bogs are usually from the secondaries opening too soon!!

Notes:
Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it’s full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.

Some cars like staggered jetting.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required.

If car spits fuel out of the vent[s] it means the o ring on the needle seat is bad.

It’s always easier to remove the front carb for rejetting.
Tape over intake and make sure there is never any unaccounted for hardware.

If you are using a wideband O2 meter you will see a lean spike when the secondaries open. It should be small and you should not feel it.

Do not use Teflon tape or any other sealers on the flare fittings. A drop of light oil on the threads is a good ides



If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Chart to shorten the slots if you have a non adjustable mopar distributor.
Distributor degrees X 2 + initial= total
18 initial plus 14
32-36 total advance typically, every car is different.
There should be no advance until 1200 rpm
Then the advance should increase slowly until it is “all in” at 2400rpm for lighter cars - 2800 rpm - heavier cars

Dist. degrees / slot size
6.............. .340
7............... .355
8............... .375
9............... .390
10.............. .405
11.5 ........... .420
12.............. .435
13.............. .445
14.............. .460
15.............. .475
16.............. .490
17.............. .505
18.............. .520


There are 2 basic plates in the distributor one that has 11deg advance and one that is 17. The slot length on all is .480.

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 70Challengerse] #1691833
11/12/14 10:17 PM
11/12/14 10:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
70Challengerse Offline OP
master
70Challengerse  Offline OP
master

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
Got the tool the other day, look like it gonna wait til Spring, it can stay alittle rich til then , wanna drive it some more before the salt hits the road...

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: 70Challengerse] #1691834
11/13/14 04:51 AM
11/13/14 04:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 646
VA.
M
mosweethemi Offline
mopar
mosweethemi  Offline
mopar
M

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 646
VA.
HELLO WHERE DO YOU BUY THE SIXPACK TOOL FROM ? IS IT SIXPACK SOLUTIONS ? THANKS MOSWEETHEMI . YOU CAN E-MAIL ME BACK AT MOSWEETHEMI@YAHOO.COM OR ON MOPARTS . THANKS MOPARTS

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: mosweethemi] #1691835
11/13/14 08:43 AM
11/13/14 08:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
M
meepmeep70 Offline
master
meepmeep70  Offline
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M

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,426
weymouth,mass.
six pack solutions, great tool.

Re: 6-PAK Carbs [Re: meepmeep70] #1691836
11/13/14 11:36 AM
11/13/14 11:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
70Challengerse Offline OP
master
70Challengerse  Offline OP
master

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,512
Lebanon ,PA in the Susquehanna...
Quote:

six pack solutions, great tool.



Yes it was...







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