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i "think"the k727 joint has a bigger taper than the k781/783 joints, as it fits the imperial from 59-66, and those take the k778upper joint that is also common to the 74-78 c bodies and 1/2 ton trucks, which have a bigger taper than the 62-74 b&e joints. the lower screw in joint that has the same taper as the 62-74 b&e bodies is the k719. however, that screw in joint has the same threads as the upper ball joints, so it won't screw into the lower control arms that take the k727 joints because the body thread size is smaller. hope that makes it clear[as mud].........

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Brad, they appear that they are all 7* tapers. The K727, K781 and K783 all match tapers after checking a 7* reamer taper against a spindle and lower control arm taper that I have sitting in the garage.

FWIW, the K5108 and K6024, bolt in GM style ball joints also have 7* of taper. Using either of these and a creative body mounting method would allow the use of GM style tubular upper control arms.

Check Speedway Motors as you can sort through their ball joint catalog by taper, material, height, thread, etc.

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Thanks Tony! the K727 taper might be 7degs but it's much bigger in diameter. I need it to fit in a standard E/A-Body LCA.

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Brad, they appear that they are all 7* tapers. The K727, K781 and K783 all match tapers after checking a 7* reamer taper against a spindle and lower control arm taper that I have sitting in the garage.

FWIW, the K5108 and K6024, bolt in GM style ball joints also have 7* of taper. Using either of these and a creative body mounting method would allow the use of GM style tubular upper control arms.

Check Speedway Motors as you can sort through their ball joint catalog by taper, material, height, thread, etc.

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Thanks Tony! the K727 taper might be 7degs but it's much bigger in diameter. I need it to fit in a standard E/A-Body LCA.

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that is true about the 7* taper on most joints. the problem is as stated. the k727 is bigger in diameter than a k719. just visualize the bottom of the cone shape. it's bigger at the bottom than the top even though it is a consistant taper from top to bottom. an example of this is the upper ball joint on the early a body. it must be changed to the 73 & later style joint to use the common disc swap spindle[s] unless you use the special spacers dr. diff sells to adapt the small ball joints to the later spindles. both joints are the same taper [7*], but the early joint is smaller [the top of the cone] than the later joint[bottom of the cone]. with that being said, speedway sells 2 different reamers for ball joint/tie rod fitment. #910-89411 [7* or 1 1/2" taper per ft.] which fits most of the stuff we play with. then there is the #910-89412 [10* or 2" taper per ft.]. this is mostly used on big gm cars like 71-80 something impalas and s-10 pickups etc. lower joints. now after all this discussion, as far as i know, the taper hole is on the lower arm of the a,b,e body and in order to use the "screw in" lower joint, you would have to modify the lower arm by welding in a ball joint "ring" then use a steering arm from several years[which i don't have in front of me at this minute] which have the taper "hole" in the arm to accept the joint. with aftermarket arms you can fab up anything, so any kind of joint/spindle/steering arm combination can be concocted. i went through this mix-n-match deal several years ago coming up with something for the suspension on my 33 humpback project that would/could use commonly available items, trying to stay in the mopar parts category. it can get mighty confusing real fast. and no, my humpback is not going to be a handling machine, as it wasn't to be at the start. suspension is facinating for me, so i like to learn even if i never use the info gleaned.

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Simple answer would be to just pick up a reamer to open up the diameter to whatever dimension you want while retaining the 7* taper.

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I'd have to ream the LCA which I don't think is safe to do. Not enough material there. I didn't realize the K719 screw in ball joint had the same size and taper as the stock E-Body K783 which is exactly what I needed! I have one of the Howe ones ordered to be sure.

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Simple answer would be to just pick up a reamer to open up the diameter to whatever dimension you want while retaining the 7* taper.

I suspect Brad is chasing some pseudo Nascar application that can be adapted using common oval track parts. Since he has the machining capability in his garage, it isn't too much of a stretch for him to perform on his car. I'm anxious to see what he comes up with.

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Simple answer would be to just pick up a reamer to open up the diameter to whatever dimension you want while retaining the 7* taper.

I suspect Brad is chasing some pseudo Nascar application that can be adapted using common oval track parts. Since he has the machining capability in his garage, it isn't too much of a stretch for him to perform on his car. I'm anxious to see what he comes up with.

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Sort of what Firm Feel had mocked up years ago, but never sold to my knowledge. He used a speedway spindle and steering arm. I think a F-body LCA or was there a C-body that had a screw in or press in lower ball joint?

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I have pictures of that somewhere, Dick sent them to me after discussing some combinations for circle track.
Later B-Body lowers has press in ball joints and widens the track width 1.5 per side. We run this set up on a buddys circle track car with C-Body spindles.



I just got a pair of road course spindles I'm playing around with. I'm going to modify the steering arm to use a screw in ball joint.
Dimensionally they are very close to C-Body spindles, just beefier. I'll make my own hubs with the 4 1/2" bolt pattern in aluminum to shed some weight. Toying with building my own K-Frame, maybe a rack, and Schroder or speedway engineering sway bars, lots of them around cheap too.
Hey, it's winter soon .... and I get bored and need a project?

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...I just got a pair of road course spindles I'm playing around with....

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...I just got a pair of road course spindles I'm playing around with....

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What features would constitute a road course spindle vs a circle track spindle?

What brand spindle?

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Road course spindles are symmetrical/mirror image. Oval spindles usually have different pin heights, steering arm lengths, and different KPI side to side. Optimized to turn left .
I'm not sure who made these spindles? Laughlin maybe?
http://www.laughlin-racing.com/productlist.asp?cid=17
The hub is from Speedway Engineering. I think these were never used at the upper levels of Nascar because the steering arm was not welded to the spindle. First time I've seen a pair that were not welded? A buddy whom I've built a few parts for used these spindles when he raced in the Hooters cup series. They usually used recycled Nascar cars/parts.
At this point the only dimensions carved in stone is the upper control arm mounts and my rim tire combo/pin height ( because I just bought them(18"rims), and am not buying something different! LOL)
Brake combo's , upper and lower ball joint positions, LCA pin height ( If I build my own K-Frame) front steer/rear steer, rack etc.... are all "up for review" My plan is to use a stock lower control arm and torsion bars , but the rest....?
I'll have to see if I can find a different outer bearing (smaller OD) so when I make my hubs I can make the snout smaller so it fits in my wheel.

The price was right..... free so how could I go wrong?

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...I just got a pair of road course spindles I'm playing around with....

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What features would constitute a road course spindle vs a circle track spindle?

What brand spindle?

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Road course spindles are symmetrical/mirror image. Oval spindles usually have different pin heights, steering arm lengths, and different KPI side to side. Optimized to turn left .
I'm not sure who made these spindles? Laughlin maybe?
http://www.laughlin-racing.com/productlist.asp?cid=17
The hub is from Speedway Engineering. I think these were never used at the upper levels of Nascar because the steering arm was not welded to the spindle. First time I've seen a pair that were not welded? A buddy whom I've built a few parts for used these spindles when he raced in the Hooters cup series. They usually used recycled Nascar cars/parts.
At this point the only dimensions carved in stone is the upper control arm mounts and my rim tire combo/pin height ( because I just bought them(18"rims), and am not buying something different! LOL)
Brake combo's , upper and lower ball joint positions, LCA pin height ( If I build my own K-Frame) front steer/rear steer, rack etc.... are all "up for review" My plan is to use a stock lower control arm and torsion bars , but the rest....?
I'll have to see if I can find a different outer bearing (smaller OD) so when I make my hubs I can make the snout smaller so it fits in my wheel.

The price was right..... free so how could I go wrong?

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Wow, those sure do look like the Laughlin pieces. You may be right about that.

While I'm sure the price difference is substantial, Chassisworks has come out with a fabricated spindles with bolt on steering arms among other features. http://www.cachassisworks.com/
scroll down to the bottom and view the gStreet billet spindle system.

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Those sure are pretty, a lot of machine work in those for sure. Not sure I like those bolt on steering arms, they don't look tough enough? Also their "infinitely adjustable bump steer kit looks a little weak too? The arm should be thicker/more thread engagement IMO.
I prefer the Howe quick bump kit that's been around for years. Looks like a better built option to me . http://www.howeracing.com/p-7449-howe-quick-bump-tie-rod-ends.aspx
I have this on my cars current set up now. They work nice! Mine are 11/16" housings and I see Howe doesn't offer them anymore? Must not have been a big seller in the circle track crowd? Which is Howe's primary market.
This spindle looked like some thought was put into it?
http://www.griggsracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=15_1025_1441_4426&products_id=645

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...I just got a pair of road course spindles I'm playing around with....

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What features would constitute a road course spindle vs a circle track spindle?

What brand spindle?

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Road course spindles are symmetrical/mirror image. Oval spindles usually have different pin heights, steering arm lengths, and different KPI side to side. Optimized to turn left .
I'm not sure who made these spindles? Laughlin maybe?
http://www.laughlin-racing.com/productlist.asp?cid=17
The hub is from Speedway Engineering. I think these were never used at the upper levels of Nascar because the steering arm was not welded to the spindle. First time I've seen a pair that were not welded? A buddy whom I've built a few parts for used these spindles when he raced in the Hooters cup series. They usually used recycled Nascar cars/parts.
At this point the only dimensions carved in stone is the upper control arm mounts and my rim tire combo/pin height ( because I just bought them(18"rims), and am not buying something different! LOL)
Brake combo's , upper and lower ball joint positions, LCA pin height ( If I build my own K-Frame) front steer/rear steer, rack etc.... are all "up for review" My plan is to use a stock lower control arm and torsion bars , but the rest....?
I'll have to see if I can find a different outer bearing (smaller OD) so when I make my hubs I can make the snout smaller so it fits in my wheel.

The price was right..... free so how could I go wrong?

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In our local Track Super Late Model division they run/allow a fab spindle like that. Also the Southwest Tour as it used to be called run a fab spindle that was two piece.

Seems like now they tend to run a welded box frame Upright. And run the bigger Wide-5 type Spindle with the two big bearings.

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Similar thing around here, wide 5 or fabricated sheet metal spindles. No one uses these type of spindles as they are too heavy for the smaller short tracks around here. Before the stock stuff dried up the 2 piece Olds spindles were the hot set up on 68-72 Chevelle based front clips. Now everything is Camaro based tube chassis, bump stop stuff.... Port City is the most common chassis supplier for those that don't build there own stuff
( which is the majority, most don't build there own stuff anymore)
Everything is lightweight and disposable, hence the skyrocketing cost of racing.

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...I just got a pair of road course spindles I'm playing around with....

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What features would constitute a road course spindle vs a circle track spindle?

What brand spindle?

---

Road course spindles are symmetrical/mirror image. Oval spindles usually have different pin heights, steering arm lengths, and different KPI side to side. Optimized to turn left .
I'm not sure who made these spindles? Laughlin maybe?
http://www.laughlin-racing.com/productlist.asp?cid=17
The hub is from Speedway Engineering. I think these were never used at the upper levels of Nascar because the steering arm was not welded to the spindle. First time I've seen a pair that were not welded? A buddy whom I've built a few parts for used these spindles when he raced in the Hooters cup series. They usually used recycled Nascar cars/parts.
At this point the only dimensions carved in stone is the upper control arm mounts and my rim tire combo/pin height ( because I just bought them(18"rims), and am not buying something different! LOL)
Brake combo's , upper and lower ball joint positions, LCA pin height ( If I build my own K-Frame) front steer/rear steer, rack etc.... are all "up for review" My plan is to use a stock lower control arm and torsion bars , but the rest....?
I'll have to see if I can find a different outer bearing (smaller OD) so when I make my hubs I can make the snout smaller so it fits in my wheel.

The price was right..... free so how could I go wrong?

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In our local Track Super Late Model division they run/allow a fab spindle like that. Also the Southwest Tour as it used to be called run a fab spindle that was two piece.

Seems like now they tend to run a welded box frame Upright. And run the bigger Wide-5 type Spindle with the two big bearings.

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Similar thing around here, wide 5 or fabricated sheet metal spindles. No one uses these type of spindles as they are too heavy for the smaller short tracks around here. Before the stock stuff dried up the 2 piece Olds spindles were the hot set up on 68-72 Chevelle based front clips. Now everything is Camaro based tube chassis, bump stop stuff.... Port City is the most common chassis supplier for those that don't build there own stuff
( which is the majority, most don't build there own stuff anymore)
Everything is lightweight and disposable, hence the skyrocketing cost of racing.

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Wow that's crazy! I can see why it wouldn't last....

I did one like that for a racer years ago when the rules said no lightened gear sets. I machined pockets between the screw holes that bolted on the ring gear. Took me a lot of hours on a manual mill with a rotary table. Everything was machined with a radius, no sharp corners anywhere. The guy ran it for 4 seasons, lent it to another racer for a night and it grenade. He complained about how it didn't last very long! LOL like 2 seasons is pushing it on a gear set! He said he could feel the difference though? I think it was a 6:50 gear so the crown was really thick with lots of material removed. This was before you could buy them lightened. I've done a few gear clusters for T-10 based transmissions too. Funny how circle track stuff is all hush hush...
Fun times....

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the lower screw in joint that has the same taper as the 62-74 b&e bodies is the k719. however, that screw in joint has the same threads as the upper ball joints,

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I got the Howe ball joint for a K719 and it is not the same taper or size as the B/E/A lower control arm

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the lower screw in joint that has the same taper as the 62-74 b&e bodies is the k719. however, that screw in joint has the same threads as the upper ball joints,

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I got the Howe ball joint for a K719 and it is not the same taper or size as the B/E/A lower control arm

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now that's interesting. as of now, i have the moog brand k719 joint attached to a set of spindles and steering arms from a diplomat cop car. with that being said, i also used the same setup on my brothers 64 chrysler 300. both upper and lower joints are the same size outer threads and tapers[7*], but the lower joint stud is bigger as it is the load bearing joint. as the diplomat joint is attached to the lower arm like the 300, the mating hole is on the steering arm. where as the b/e/a joint is on the steering arm and the mating hole is on the lower control arm. i'm sure you know this already. i guess i really don't know what you are attempting to do for your application. howe,afco,qa1, and speedway brand joints are patterned after only a few moog brand joints that are popular applications in the dirt world. if you are talking nascar, i don't know what they use. if you are going to modify a factory lower arm to a screw in joint, to use your b/e/a spindles, and use a bolt in factory steering arm, the diplomat piece or 57[ish] to 64 d/p/c with the k719[moog] joint will work. please tell me what combination of spindles and arms you plan to use, and i'll try to help you with the joints needed if i can.

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the lower screw in joint that has the same taper as the 62-74 b&e bodies is the k719. however, that screw in joint has the same threads as the upper ball joints,

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I got the Howe ball joint for a K719 and it is not the same taper or size as the B/E/A lower control arm

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now that's interesting. as of now, i have the moog brand k719 joint attached to a set of spindles and steering arms from a diplomat cop car. with that being said, i also used the same setup on my brothers 64 chrysler 300. both upper and lower joints are the same size outer threads and tapers[7*], but the lower joint stud is bigger as it is the load bearing joint. as the diplomat joint is attached to the lower arm like the 300, the mating hole is on the steering arm. where as the b/e/a joint is on the steering arm and the mating hole is on the lower control arm. i'm sure you know this already. i guess i really don't know what you are attempting to do for your application. howe,afco,qa1, and speedway brand joints are patterned after only a few moog brand joints that are popular applications in the dirt world. if you are talking nascar, i don't know what they use. if you are going to modify a factory lower arm to a screw in joint, to use your b/e/a spindles, and use a bolt in factory steering arm, the diplomat piece or 57[ish] to 64 d/p/c with the k719[moog] joint will work. please tell me what combination of spindles and arms you plan to use, and i'll try to help you with the joints needed if i can.

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I'm modifying a circle track steering arm to use a screw in ball joint with a pin/taper to match A/B -Body lower control arms. The K719 in close but slightly bigger than the B/E/A taper. Worse case is I can ream the hole in the LCA to fit the K719

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Just finished tig welding the steering arms to use screw in ball joints. I used a simple tail pipe expander to keep the threaded sleeves round while welding. Worked great no distortion at all!

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looks good. are those ball joint rings the "universal" threaded [commonly available] rings ?

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Why such small rotors ?

And...how well will the aluminum hold up to the stress there, does it need heat treating or anything ? (I don't really know...just curious)

And it was in the mid 90's here the past 2 days...finally cooled down into the 80's today, so was nicer in the garage too.

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Well the stock Mercedes was 37lbs I think I read, these are 19lbs. Aluminum hubs have been used for years in circle track racing. Wilwood has aluminum hubs for street use too. These are thicker were it counts and I built in the rotor mounting plate/hat. Ya in another month or two it will be in the 90's here too, then I'll be complaining it's too hot?

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Why such small rotors ?

And...how well will the aluminum hold up to the stress there, does it need heat treating or anything ? (I don't really know...just curious)

And it was in the mid 90's here the past 2 days...finally cooled down into the 80's today, so was nicer in the garage too.

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Well the stock Mercedes was 37lbs I think I read, these are 19lbs. Aluminum hubs have been used for years in circle track racing. Wilwood has aluminum hubs for street use too. These are thicker were it counts and I built in the rotor mounting plate/hat. Ya in another month or two it will be in the 90's here too, then I'll be complaining it's too hot?

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Could have went carbon rotors...I recently shipped some to a buddy in Oz. 15.5" in diameter was only about 15 or 16 pounds from memory. Around $1200 or $1300 a piece as well though..


Nice looking setup though, and knew of aluminum hubs being used in racing setups, just wasn't sure what might have been done to them or how they may hold up over the long term?