Front End Recommendations - Stock K
#1676324
09/23/14 11:41 PM
09/23/14 11:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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I'm very green to dealing with torsion-bar setups and what is out there for our Mopars. The purpose of putting my car together is going to be for some spirited driving and the occasional road course run...perhaps autocross as well. I have the K-out and disassembled, I'll be cleaning it up and rebuilding a few things under there at the same time. The budget is really bang-for-buck, and "do it while it's apart" dependent. Things like upgrading LCA bushings [if avail] while it's apart or other changes that should be sternly considered while it's apart and out of the car. On the other end, I am interested in good bang-for-buck items, bar rate, perhaps UCAs[$$], etc. I'd say around $1,200 tops on upgrades, not including the steering box. I would like to keep a good compromise of road manners, reliability, part-life and performance. I understand the benefits of reduced compliance of rod ends in various places, but I do not want to have a clicky suspension after a couple thousand street miles and have to be in the front end every year for maintenance/replacing ends. So perhaps keeping bushings with higher durometer would be better suited in a few places. - My 0.9" bars will likely be going for 1.1" bars, from what I see that is the common upgrade diameter/rate for E-bodies. Brand? Mopar Performance? Other?
- My original strut rods are toast, bent up, chewed up threads, they'll be going. I would imagine there are aftermarket upgrades to reduce longitudinal compliance in the LCAs over what the factory was able to get done. Brand recommendation?
- The car has Cordoba 11-3/4" slider brakes on it, with the late B-body knuckles. I have to go back and check, but I think those are not the ideal knuckles to be running.
- LCA pivots, I see Hotchkis has some greasible units, worth the money? Someone else?
- Tie rods, my stockers are worn out and need replacing. The $350 ones Hotchkis has are sure nice, but I will have to look at DIYing those with some 5/8" rod ends, 4130 tubing and tube adapters. I could likely TIG a set of those up pretty quickly.
- UCAs - Worth replacing? My stockers have relatively new MOOG joints in them, I had an issue with the passenger side pushing the threads out, so it was tightened and tacked. Needless to say, I'm not trilled with the arms I have at the moment.
- Sway bar[s]. I have an OEM front sway bar, adding a rear would likely be worth upgrading. With the increase in torsion bar rate and perhaps some adjustable dampers, I may not dive into a front bar just yet.
Metal-workAs far as the K-member itself goes. I've been told to look it over for cracked welds, perhaps finishing up some factory welds as well. I am not aware of any areas that are prone to flexing around, does the steering box generally need any more support? I will also be welding in some LCA reinforcement plates. I hope I have most of the bases touched, I would like to have some input on which path to take on various parts for my budget/use. Thanks!
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1676327
09/24/14 12:38 AM
09/24/14 12:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376 NORTHERN CA
HUSTLESTUFF
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
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I think you need the basics. Firm feel for Steering box, biggest T bars they make, K member and LCA re-inforcing kit to weld on, lca pivots your choice of you want to grease. If you're making the tie rods might as well make the struts. Use Coleman racing for the struts and rod ends. I would go with Hotchkis UCA. Not sure on the spindle stuff. Go with biggest Hotchkis sway or FirmFeel and Hotchkis shock or Firm Feel Bilsteins. You will not be disappointed on street or track with this, unless you think its a new car. Oh and order the Hotchkis before the end of the month while they're on sale.
Last edited by HUSTLESTUFF; 09/24/14 12:46 AM.
"Were in it to win it. Anything less will end up being..... A whole lot of fun doing!!" UNLAWFL RIP UN
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: HUSTLESTUFF]
#1676328
09/24/14 12:47 AM
09/24/14 12:47 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432 NorCal
RylisPro
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
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Hey Hustlestuff when you gonna go to Thunderhill next? I wanna race you around the original track. I think its better than Thunderhill West Sorry for the hi-jack post Goody!
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1676330
09/24/14 05:46 AM
09/24/14 05:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575 The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
... Metal-work As far as the K-member itself goes. I've been told to look it over for cracked welds, perhaps finishing up some factory welds as well. I am not aware of any areas that are prone to flexing around, does the steering box generally need any more support?
Yes on all. Lay some weld around the entire outer edges of the K-member. I personally think alternate welds of about 1 - 1.5" and 1" gaps would be sufficient.
Steeringbox mount def. could use reinforcing/gusseting. I already felt a difference on my Dart after just welding one simple plate on the mountingpad. Think of it as it needs better sideways-supporting as the box counterreacts to the steeringlinkage and tires.
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1676333
09/25/14 01:29 AM
09/25/14 01:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664 IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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Quote:
I'm very green to dealing with torsion-bar setups and what is out there for our Mopars. The purpose of putting my car together is going to be for some spirited driving and the occasional road course run...perhaps autocross as well.
I have the K-out and disassembled, I'll be cleaning it up and rebuilding a few things under there at the same time. The budget is really bang-for-buck, and "do it while it's apart" dependent. Things like upgrading LCA bushings [if avail] while it's apart or other changes that should be sternly considered while it's apart and out of the car. On the other end, I am interested in good bang-for-buck items, bar rate, perhaps UCAs[$$], etc. I'd say around $1,200 tops on upgrades, not including the steering box.
I would like to keep a good compromise of road manners, reliability, part-life and performance. I understand the benefits of reduced compliance of rod ends in various places, but I do not want to have a clicky suspension after a couple thousand street miles and have to be in the front end every year for maintenance/replacing ends. So perhaps keeping bushings with higher durometer would be better suited in a few places.
- My 0.9" bars will likely be going for 1.1" bars, from what I see that is the common upgrade diameter/rate for E-bodies. Brand? Mopar Performance? Other?
- My original strut rods are toast, bent up, chewed up threads, they'll be going. I would imagine there are aftermarket upgrades to reduce longitudinal compliance in the LCAs over what the factory was able to get done. Brand recommendation?
- The car has Cordoba 11-3/4" slider brakes on it, with the late B-body knuckles. I have to go back and check, but I think those are not the ideal knuckles to be running.
- LCA pivots, I see Hotchkis has some greasible units, worth the money? Someone else?
- Tie rods, my stockers are worn out and need replacing. The $350 ones Hotchkis has are sure nice, but I will have to look at DIYing those with some 5/8" rod ends, 4130 tubing and tube adapters. I could likely TIG a set of those up pretty quickly.
- UCAs - Worth replacing? My stockers have relatively new MOOG joints in them, I had an issue with the passenger side pushing the threads out, so it was tightened and tacked. Needless to say, I'm not trilled with the arms I have at the moment.
- Sway bar[s]. I have an OEM front sway bar, adding a rear would likely be worth upgrading. With the increase in torsion bar rate and perhaps some adjustable dampers, I may not dive into a front bar just yet.
Metal-work As far as the K-member itself goes. I've been told to look it over for cracked welds, perhaps finishing up some factory welds as well. I am not aware of any areas that are prone to flexing around, does the steering box generally need any more support?
I will also be welding in some LCA reinforcement plates.
I hope I have most of the bases touched, I would like to have some input on which path to take on various parts for my budget/use.
Thanks!
Just a few comments.
For the T bars, you need more than .9". What is "right" is application dependent and heavily debated. I like my 1" bars. 1.1" sounds good also and needs high end shocks to control. Budget?
On front suspension part questions, do you know your current alignment? The new aftermarket UCA's can help increase positive caster and negative camber if you need it. Otherwise your stocker's should be fine. For the strut rods, in part it depends on LCA bushings and tolerance's on the K. Rubber bushings will help hold the LCA in place and stock rods will work OK. With poly LCA bushings, adjustable rods may be needed to keep everything in place. Stock rods are out there (I have a set) and also may be re-popped.
For the tie rods, upgrade to larger diameter (11/16"?)is available from the parts store. I believe you are looking for later 70's C parts (eg Dodge Monaco). Firm Feel, Mancini and others also offer these.
The other consideration is the Chassis. Frame connectors help a lot, especially with stiffer T bars.
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1676336
09/25/14 02:50 PM
09/25/14 02:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645 Houston, Tx
AlexP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
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- My 0.9" bars will likely be going for 1.1" bars, from what I see that is the common upgrade diameter/rate for E-bodies. Brand? Mopar Performance? Other?
I've got the 1.22" and I like them. I found mine on sale when there were no other options.
- My original strut rods are toast, bent up, chewed up threads, they'll be going. I would imagine there are aftermarket upgrades to reduce longitudinal compliance in the LCAs over what the factory was able to get done. Brand recommendation?
Firm feel, Hotchkis, any will do.
- The car has Cordoba 11-3/4" slider brakes on it, with the late B-body knuckles. I have to go back and check, but I think those are not the ideal knuckles to be running.
I think they're fine for now, the next step up is to find a factory drum spindle and go with a 11.75" c body with a viper caliper from dr diff. About $600...but there are also $800-1200 kits that use a better caliper and 13" rotor.
- LCA pivots, I see Hotchkis has some greasible units, worth the money? Someone else?
I've got firm feel pins with poly bushings.
- Tie rods, my stockers are worn out and need replacing. The $350 ones Hotchkis has are sure nice, but I will have to look at DIYing those with some 5/8" rod ends, 4130 tubing and tube adapters. I could likely TIG a set of those up pretty quickly.
I like the C-body tie rod ends and sleeves on a budget. That's what I've got.
- UCAs - Worth replacing? My stockers have relatively new MOOG joints in them, I had an issue with the passenger side pushing the threads out, so it was tightened and tacked. Needless to say, I'm not trilled with the arms I have at the moment.
I would splurge on a set of Hotckis tubulars if you can't reuse your originals
- Sway bar[s]. I have an OEM front sway bar, adding a rear would likely be worth upgrading. With the increase in torsion bar rate and perhaps some adjustable dampers, I may not dive into a front bar just yet.
I like hellwig for the dollar. Hotchkis is a close second. Metal-workAs far as the K-member itself goes. I've been told to look it over for cracked welds, perhaps finishing up some factory welds as well. I am not aware of any areas that are prone to flexing around, does the steering box generally need any more support? Lots of welding and guessting. I would use the firm feel kit.
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: Devil]
#1676337
09/25/14 05:05 PM
09/25/14 05:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
This was a really good thread on the welded K-member.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rt=all&vc=1
I agree....
Since then the Charger feels more solid than ever. My goals were to equal the steering and feel of a 76 Camaro that I used to own years ago that I'd spent years refining. The GM F body was a great handling car for its time. The reduction of flex has many benefits. Quicker response, fewer rattles and a more "solid" feel are just a few of them.
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1676338
09/25/14 11:31 PM
09/25/14 11:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
Check for slop in the LCA between the torsion bar socket and main body. See this video that I put together on how to fix it:
http://youtu.be/Nwes-SP8u4w?list=UUqvjc-8llEE-JKNFYw30-NQ
Thanks, I checked out my arms, not too much slop surprisingly. I will be putting in some LCA plates, so I'll tighten things up a little then!
Quote:
Yes on all. Lay some weld around the entire outer edges of the K-member. I personally think alternate welds of about 1 - 1.5" and 1" gaps would be sufficient.
Steeringbox mount def. could use reinforcing/gusseting. I already felt a difference on my Dart after just welding one simple plate on the mountingpad. Think of it as it needs better sideways-supporting as the box counterreacts to the steeringlinkage and tires.
I looked it over today and see where some improvements could be made. I'll try to borrow a TIG to just work those seems over rather than the MIG I have. I hate using a MIG for that sorta stuff.
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with the B-body knuckles. On a more serious build I'd switch to the FMJ knuckles since they are lighter, but you probably wouldn't feel the difference.
The 11.75 setup works just fine but it is super heavy. DoctorDiff might have something in the brakes department that can save a little weight.
Thanks Andy, I moved them around today and good-grief they ARE HEAVY! I'll look for an alternative later on, but I'll be glad to get rid of that unsprung weight when I do.
Quote:
This was a really good thread on the welded K-member.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rt=all&vc=1
Thanks Devil, I'll be doing some of the same.
Quote:
Just a few comments.
For the T bars, you need more than .9". What is "right" is application dependent and heavily debated. I like my 1" bars. 1.1" sounds good also and needs high end shocks to control. Budget?
On front suspension part questions, do you know your current alignment? The new aftermarket UCA's can help increase positive caster and negative camber if you need it. Otherwise your stocker's should be fine. For the strut rods, in part it depends on LCA bushings and tolerance's on the K. Rubber bushings will help hold the LCA in place and stock rods will work OK. With poly LCA bushings, adjustable rods may be needed to keep everything in place. Stock rods are out there (I have a set) and also may be re-popped.
For the tie rods, upgrade to larger diameter (11/16"?)is available from the parts store. I believe you are looking for later 70's C parts (eg Dodge Monaco). Firm Feel, Mancini and others also offer these.
The other consideration is the Chassis. Frame connectors help a lot, especially with stiffer T bars.
Thanks for the input! Seems like some middle-of-the-road strut rods will get me by. I'm not too thrilled about those being $300 parts, I'd rather save some money there and put it toward some UCAs.
Good info on the C-body tie rods!
Quote:
I'll drop those LCA plates in the mail since I forgot to bring them with me last weekend.
Thanks Kevin, I'm in Ft Worth on Saturdays, close to the train station? I don't get around there very well.
Quote:
- My 0.9" bars will likely be going for 1.1" bars, from what I see that is the common upgrade diameter/rate for E-bodies. Brand? Mopar Performance? Other?
I've got the 1.22" and I like them. I found mine on sale when there were no other options.
- My original strut rods are toast, bent up, chewed up threads, they'll be going. I would imagine there are aftermarket upgrades to reduce longitudinal compliance in the LCAs over what the factory was able to get done. Brand recommendation?
Firm feel, Hotchkis, any will do.
- The car has Cordoba 11-3/4" slider brakes on it, with the late B-body knuckles. I have to go back and check, but I think those are not the ideal knuckles to be running.
I think they're fine for now, the next step up is to find a factory drum spindle and go with a 11.75" c body with a viper caliper from dr diff. About $600...but there are also $800-1200 kits that use a better caliper and 13" rotor.
- LCA pivots, I see Hotchkis has some greasible units, worth the money? Someone else?
I've got firm feel pins with poly bushings.
- Tie rods, my stockers are worn out and need replacing. The $350 ones Hotchkis has are sure nice, but I will have to look at DIYing those with some 5/8" rod ends, 4130 tubing and tube adapters. I could likely TIG a set of those up pretty quickly.
I like the C-body tie rod ends and sleeves on a budget. That's what I've got.
- UCAs - Worth replacing? My stockers have relatively new MOOG joints in them, I had an issue with the passenger side pushing the threads out, so it was tightened and tacked. Needless to say, I'm not trilled with the arms I have at the moment.
I would splurge on a set of Hotckis tubulars if you can't reuse your originals
- Sway bar[s]. I have an OEM front sway bar, adding a rear would likely be worth upgrading. With the increase in torsion bar rate and perhaps some adjustable dampers, I may not dive into a front bar just yet.
I like hellwig for the dollar. Hotchkis is a close second.
Metal-work As far as the K-member itself goes. I've been told to look it over for cracked welds, perhaps finishing up some factory welds as well. I am not aware of any areas that are prone to flexing around, does the steering box generally need any more support?
Lots of welding and guessting. I would use the firm feel kit.
Thanks Alex, I'm working on my shopping list.
I got the K de-gunked with a pressure washer. I'll work it over with a cup brush and work on some gusseting next week.
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: brads70]
#1676341
10/08/14 11:39 AM
10/08/14 11:39 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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OP
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
Be carefully with the dimple dies , They could distort things...?
Their material deformation is very locally located on something like this, in my opinion. I've used the dies pretty extensively in the past and that is what I've noticed.
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Re: Front End Recommendations - Stock K
[Re: ahy]
#1676343
10/09/14 07:33 AM
10/09/14 07:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
For the T bars, you need more than .9". What is "right" is application dependent and heavily debated. I like my 1" bars. 1.1" sounds good also and needs high end shocks to control. Budget?
Why would stiffer T-bars need better shocks? I know everything should always have the best shock in the budget, but is there an actual need for a superior shock if the front spring rate is serious?
So far my 70 Challenger's budget is looking like VERY serious T-bars (best available) and not much better than stock range shocks. We cant all afford Bilsteins. I NEED to buy T-bars (mine are 6-cyl), and i'm not buying them twice. I'll upgrade shocks down the road when funds allow.
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