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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: camastomcat]
#1673697
09/19/14 02:37 PM
09/19/14 02:37 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
I would like to know what brought up this in the first
place and if it was based on 1 person in particular..
as in me
Perhaps 6 pak runner had a point. I forgot yo take my meds. Maybe it has to do with me not being able to find a Mopar block and people not wanting to produce them because there is no demand in the Mopar supply world for spending anymore than $3000 for an alright aluminum POS. Maybe it's because it costs so much more than it used to and people are harder and harder to find that even want to work on this stuff. Look at who tries to come on here trying to help and gets a beat down when they do. The number of people that used to be here and have practical knowledge in building these deals that don't visit or comment here anymore is astounding. I used to work with some of these guys and was at one time, even the one that said " how much power will it take"? As an engine builder, there is no right answer. Sometimes we should all take into consideration who we are commenting to with our garage mentality, me included. When the pros that do this every day take the time to help out or ask our opinion about the manufacture of a part, maybe it wouldn't hurt to take a little time to think about a reasonable response? That's what this was about.....prolly.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^What MoPar guys accept for aftermarket parts is absurd. Go look at car counts. MoPars are not less that Dorfs, but aftermarket stuff has exploded. It's because the MOPAR PEOPLE accept this garbage. There are 20 plus BBC head casting available in conventional form. Mopar, not so much. We have B1, B1MC, B1TS and predator. Then, you have to stick it on a 4.500 bore block with a 4.84 bore spacing. It's stupid really.
I feel your pain Tomcat. The Chrysler guys expect a block designed to take about 750 HP in 1963 (the vaunted HEMI) and want to increase HP by 70%, increase engine speed by 40% and wonder why they don't make power on a brand X level. No ring seal, geometrically retarded (don't get me on a rant about B/S ratios etc) and copies of a 1963 design.
Piss poor is piss poor.
And don't even get me started on small block Mopar stuff. It's beyond reprehensible.
I feel your pain Tom. I really do. Maybe someday we will wake up and demand more. But I doubt it.
Rant off 
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: B G Racing]
#1673698
09/19/14 02:47 PM
09/19/14 02:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
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Quote:
We always say build within your financial means, knowledge abilities and with a goal of what you can realistically achieve.Have a well thought out plan and stick to it.Projects not well planned can blossom into a costly and unattainable project than can completely frustrate you.  
"Projects not well planned can blossom into a costly and unattainable project than can completely frustrate you."
The above statement by Bob George pretty much describes every waking moment of my life..... 
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: dthemi]
#1673699
09/19/14 03:01 PM
09/19/14 03:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
We always say build within your financial means, knowledge abilities and with a goal of what you can realistically achieve.Have a well thought out plan and stick to it.Projects not well planned can blossom into a costly and unattainable project than can completely frustrate you.
"Projects not well planned can blossom into a costly and unattainable project than can completely frustrate you."
The above statement by Bob George pretty much describes every waking moment of my life.....
Over 50 years in this business can teach you a lot of viable lessons.We have customers that have delusions that manifest into illusions and create their own nightmares.We usually kindly refuse to partisipate in their project.
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: Eric]
#1673701
09/19/14 03:33 PM
09/19/14 03:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,989
Anoka County, MN
Leigh
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,989
Anoka County, MN
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Quote:
Quote:
Hello All! I talk with Richard Maskins on this very topic a couple years ago. He told me it take's about, 80,000.00 to do design, develop, manufacture the first block!!! And then figure long term cost to sell quantity's to get your return on investment!!!
Thanks...thats actually pretty close to what I had thought.
I was told in the mid 90's by a guy high in the food chain, that corporate design, testing, Union accepted casting vendor was 1,000,000, before the first one was sold. People may say "sure", but I was there. Every time posts come up over $ for blocks, I revert to that meeting, and think, "yeah, right".
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: madscientist]
#1673703
09/19/14 03:44 PM
09/19/14 03:44 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^What MoPar guys accept for aftermarket parts is absurd. Go look at car counts. MoPars are not less that Dorfs, but aftermarket stuff has exploded. It's because the MOPAR PEOPLE accept this garbage. There are 20 plus BBC head casting available in conventional form. Mopar, not so much. We have B1, B1MC, B1TS and predator. Then, you have to stick it on a 4.500 bore block with a 4.84 bore spacing. It's stupid really.
I feel your pain Tomcat. The Chrysler guys expect a block designed to take about 750 HP in 1963 (the vaunted HEMI) and want to increase HP by 70%, increase engine speed by 40% and wonder why they don't make power on a brand X level. No ring seal, geometrically retarded (don't get me on a rant about B/S ratios etc) and copies of a 1963 design.
Piss poor is piss poor.
And don't even get me started on small block Mopar stuff. It's beyond reprehensible.
I feel your pain Tom. I really do. Maybe someday we will wake up and demand more. But I doubt it.
Rant off
A few things....I don't think people thought of 750 hp in 1963 (outside of blown nitro)......and please explain how Mopar people "Accept" this.....
so if they don't buy the parts they are damned as being not supportive....and if they DO buy the parts available they are "accepting" or promoting mediocrity ????
And why on earth would 20 different heads be needed ???
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: ]
#1673704
09/19/14 04:22 PM
09/19/14 04:22 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Quote:
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^What MoPar guys accept for aftermarket parts is absurd. Go look at car counts. MoPars are not less that Dorfs, but aftermarket stuff has exploded. It's because the MOPAR PEOPLE accept this garbage. There are 20 plus BBC head casting available in conventional form. Mopar, not so much. We have B1, B1MC, B1TS and predator. Then, you have to stick it on a 4.500 bore block with a 4.84 bore spacing. It's stupid really.
I feel your pain Tomcat. The Chrysler guys expect a block designed to take about 750 HP in 1963 (the vaunted HEMI) and want to increase HP by 70%, increase engine speed by 40% and wonder why they don't make power on a brand X level. No ring seal, geometrically retarded (don't get me on a rant about B/S ratios etc) and copies of a 1963 design.
Piss poor is piss poor.
And don't even get me started on small block Mopar stuff. It's beyond reprehensible.
I feel your pain Tom. I really do. Maybe someday we will wake up and demand more. But I doubt it.
Rant off
A few things....I don't think people thought of 750 hp in 1963 (outside of blown nitro)......and please explain how Mopar people "Accept" this.....
so if they don't buy the parts they are damned as being not supportive....and if they DO buy the parts available they are "accepting" or promoting mediocrity ????
And why on earth would 20 different heads be needed ???
You wouldn't understand or listen, so why should anyone try to explain physics to a trash man? This guy has ported some of the best heads ever done. He doesn't owe you an explanation, and as I said, you wouldn't understand the answer.
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: ]
#1673705
09/19/14 04:43 PM
09/19/14 04:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^What MoPar guys accept for aftermarket parts is absurd. Go look at car counts. MoPars are not less that Dorfs, but aftermarket stuff has exploded. It's because the MOPAR PEOPLE accept this garbage. There are 20 plus BBC head casting available in conventional form. Mopar, not so much. We have B1, B1MC, B1TS and predator. Then, you have to stick it on a 4.500 bore block with a 4.84 bore spacing. It's stupid really.
I feel your pain Tomcat. The Chrysler guys expect a block designed to take about 750 HP in 1963 (the vaunted HEMI) and want to increase HP by 70%, increase engine speed by 40% and wonder why they don't make power on a brand X level. No ring seal, geometrically retarded (don't get me on a rant about B/S ratios etc) and copies of a 1963 design.
Piss poor is piss poor.
And don't even get me started on small block Mopar stuff. It's beyond reprehensible.
I feel your pain Tom. I really do. Maybe someday we will wake up and demand more. But I doubt it.
Rant off
A few things....I don't think people thought of 750 hp in 1963 (outside of blown nitro)......and please explain how Mopar people "Accept" this.....
so if they don't buy the parts they are damned as being not supportive....and if they DO buy the parts available they are "accepting" or promoting mediocrity ????
And why on earth would 20 different heads be needed ???
My point EXACTLY. If you don't understand why 20 or more conventional heads available to you is a bad thing, nothing I say will make a difference.
99% of the BBM's use a 4.5 bore. On the Predator head, that already is a piss poor compromise. So, because the "bigger is better" crowd has won the day, we jam a 4.75 stroke into an already cylinder head limited package. BTW, Harold Bettes understands bigger is not always better. See his book "Engine Airflow" page 8. He also mentions how misguided folks are who fret over torque. It costs way too many MoPar guys HP and slows their stuff down.
As for the Hemi, most of the design was done in 1963. A good cross rammed Hemi, correctly tuned, would easily push 600 HP in stock trim. Do you think that the Chrysler engineers didn't add a margin of safety to the design? Sadly, that ship has sailed. Bores too small. Bore spacing too close. Where are the updates??
As long as MoPar guys are not given options to build (correctly) bigger, better engines, most will either switch to chevy's or quit racing. Who can blame them? When I have to explain to a guy over and over and over and over how much HP he is losing trying to turn 7500 RPM,s and make 900+ HP on his stock block, and why the bearings look like crap, and why his ring seal is horrible, yet like a dog returning to his own vomit, he brings in ANOTHER passenger car block. And a main girdle.
Kinda like lather, rinse, repeat.
Junk is junk ant any price.
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: madscientist]
#1673706
09/19/14 07:04 PM
09/19/14 07:04 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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To have 20 or more heads available means you will have a better choice,not to mention they have to compete with each other on price.That means you can buy them cheaper and save $$$. Also having 20 or more different heads they have to make improvements to their heads to make them better so they can sell!That means you have heads with 2014 Technology not 1980 Technology.So you get much better heads at a much cheaper price.And having 20 different people offering heads means there is never a shortage,there is never a back order when you need them. And worst of all chevy & ford have all of this and us Mopar racers that want to go Fast have only 2 choices Indy or B1.That means they do not have to cut prices and compete with anyone to sell their heads.Not to mention there has been very little changes in either one of their heads since the 1980's.They have added a few but most are still based of the 1980's Technology! Thats means we are pay more $$$ for heads with 1980 Technology that the chevy & ford racers are paying for 2014 Technology! And it matters not how good any engine builder is they can not build a better engine using parts with 1980 Technology(Mopar) than the engine builders using 2014 Technology(chevy & ford)! These is the most important of all The Reason We Do Not Have New 2014 Technology is our (Mopar people)own fault. Someone makes/builds a new part we do not like because it does not look like the engine in Grannys 1958 Desota and we won't buy it and will bash it till everyone else is afraid to buy it. Let a vendors ask if we would be interested in some new parts with 2014 Technology and we will all be Quick to not just tell them NO....but HELL NO! Everyone used to [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] about Indy's customer service...and someone I believe his name was Josh come on here and said he now worked at INDY and was going to make customer service better...and what did everyone do....they done their best to run him off! And them chevy & ford racers that have 20+ heads to choose from....guess what they have that many blocks and all the other parts as well....when they need a block there is no waiting period....no back order it is in stock! PS I no longer run Indy and have never run any B1 so bash them all you want it's not gonna hurt my Racing!  Have a Great weekend everyone at the track! 
Last edited by MRMOPAR622; 09/19/14 07:07 PM.
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: madscientist]
#1673707
09/19/14 07:10 PM
09/19/14 07:10 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I will tell you this...
Long ago I branched out from Mopar only to other brands added to my mix--and after several years doing that I can tell you for sure--Mopar guys are about 7% of the entire aftermarket business and that is a guess on the high side.
I get 100 phone calls or emails about parts
85% Chevy
5% Ford
3% mopar
They all want in this order:
gaskets
roller cams
MSD
Roller lifters
Rotating kits
heads
Rocker arms
oil pans
slicks
The rest are BS calls and just trouble shooting and shipping screw ups--refunds-returns --warranty request on 4 year old rotating kits--and valves to replace the ones they bent
and last but not least--3 calls a day on wrong push rod length--apparently folks can't measure--I blame public schools but that is another deal all together
Mix in a few --It won't fire with it is making an odd noise or that is my wifes credit card and she said it is OK---and you have my usual day
You guys can QUIT wanting more/better blocks--ain't gonna happen
Maskin is pals with Russ at Indy and they must have a pact--Maskin ain't messing with Russ and the maxx block deal or making Mopar heads
If he would our problems would be SOLVED and there would be beautiful perfect Mopar blocks
Truth is there are not enough Mopar guys on earth to make it worth doing--so...
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: MRMOPAR622]
#1673708
09/19/14 07:23 PM
09/19/14 07:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
To have 20 or more heads available means you will have a better choice,not to mention they have to compete with each other on price.That means you can buy them cheaper and save $$$.
Also having 20 or more different heads they have to make improvements to their heads to make them better so they can sell!That means you have heads with 2014 Technology not 1980 Technology.So you get much better heads at a much cheaper price.And having 20 different people offering heads means there is never a shortage,there is never a back order when you need them.
And worst of all chevy & ford have all of this and us Mopar racers that want to go Fast have only 2 choices Indy or B1.That means they do not have to cut prices and compete with anyone to sell their heads.Not to mention there has been very little changes in either one of their heads since the 1980's.They have added a few but most are still based of the 1980's Technology!
Thats means we are pay more $$$ for heads with 1980 Technology that the chevy & ford racers are paying for 2014 Technology!
And it matters not how good any engine builder is they can not build a better engine using parts with 1980 Technology(Mopar) than the engine builders using 2014 Technology(chevy & ford)!
These is the most important of all The Reason We Do Not Have New 2014 Technology is our (Mopar people)own fault.
Someone makes/builds a new part we do not like because it does not look like the engine in Grannys 1958 Desota and we won't buy it and will bash it till everyone else is afraid to buy it.
Let a vendors ask if we would be interested in some new parts with 2014 Technology and we will all be Quick to not just tell them NO....but HELL NO!
Everyone used to [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] about Indy's customer service...and someone I believe his name was Josh come on here and said he now worked at INDY and was going to make customer service better...and what did everyone do....they done their best to run him off!
And them chevy & ford racers that have 20+ heads to choose from....guess what they have that many blocks and all the other parts as well....when they need a block there is no waiting period....no back order it is in stock!
PS I no longer run Indy and have never run any B1 so bash them all you want it's not gonna hurt my Racing!
Have a Great weekend everyone at the track!
The BIGGEST problem is 95% of mopar guys are too
CHEAP to spend the money EVEN if the parts were out
there... thats why the supplier wont invest in mopar
stuff... the ROI isnt there... they have a had time
selling what is out there now... then you have the
catch 22... all the stuff is based on the old bore
spread and the heads and cranks are based on the bore
spread... no one will invest a million bucks on the
ROI factor... to sell a few hundred blocks might take
5 years if they are $5000... there just isnt the number
of high dollar mopar guy since they have gone to
the other stuff
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1673709
09/19/14 07:43 PM
09/19/14 07:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 760
Canada
CTD5.9
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 760
Canada
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Quote:
The BIGGEST problem is 95% of mopar guys are too
CHEAP to spend the money EVEN if the parts were out
there...
I think they are cheap because they see what Brand X costs and think it should be the same for Mopar. But it can't be the same because of everything else you have said, the ROI is just not there.
It's really too bad tragedy struck the Koleno family. There was a glimmer of hope in the aftermarket block world. but when your manufacturers performance division won't support you with blocks and good heads why should anyone else
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1673710
09/19/14 07:44 PM
09/19/14 07:44 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
The BIGGEST problem is 95% of mopar guys are too
CHEAP to spend the money EVEN if the parts were out
there... thats why the supplier wont invest in mopar
stuff... the ROI isnt there... they have a had time
selling what is out there now...
Wow, where do you come up with this stuff ?? Please tell me where to buy an R block, X block, Megablock......since they are such poor sellers there must be tons of them sitting somewhere......
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: d-150]
#1673712
09/19/14 08:30 PM
09/19/14 08:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
crabman,if we had the pricepoint that chevy had ur calls would proly go up.
Mopar holds a much smaller market place and that includes
the race stuff... if mopar people had all the parts
available that the other companies have it would be at a
higher price due to the slow sales, because the volume
wont EVER be there... yeah I know its hard to take
and I'm part of it.. but its fact... TRY to get some
investers and see what they say... just say mopar
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: d-150]
#1673713
09/19/14 08:37 PM
09/19/14 08:37 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
crabman,if we had the pricepoint that chevy had ur calls would proly go up.
Yes, perhaps it is the chevy guys that are cheap.....would they pay a thousand or two more for their blocks ?? If so, is Dart and others dummies for pricing their parts way way too low ??
This constant generalizing and bashing Mopar guys by a few that picture themselves as elitists is tiring.
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: CTD5.9]
#1673715
09/19/14 08:56 PM
09/19/14 08:56 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
The BIGGEST problem is 95% of mopar guys are too
CHEAP to spend the money EVEN if the parts were out
there...
I think they are cheap because they see what Brand X costs and think it should be the same for Mopar. But it can't be the same because of everything else you have said, the ROI is just not there.
It's really too bad tragedy struck the Koleno family. There was a glimmer of hope in the aftermarket block world. but when your manufacturers performance division won't support you with blocks and good heads why should anyone else
Yep... our parts will never be on the same price
level as the others due to volume but many think
it should be... never happen... and your right with
the idea that if the main company wont then I sure wont...
I thought for a while that the company was gonna get
back into racing... but that didnt happen
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: ]
#1673716
09/19/14 09:07 PM
09/19/14 09:07 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
crabman,if we had the pricepoint that chevy had ur calls would proly go up.
Yes, perhaps it is the chevy guys that are cheap.....would they pay a thousand or two more for their blocks ?? If so, is Dart and others dummies for pricing their parts way way too low ??
This constant generalizing and bashing Mopar guys by a few that picture themselves as elitists is tiring.
It's not an elitist thing at all. If you want to make 1200 HP it won't happen (for very long) on a passenger car block. You can get a pretty good SBC for about $2000.00, so if you think about that in terms of MoPar selling half of that, would $3000.00 be out of line? $4000.00? We are not talking about typical bracket guys. The number of chevy guys to MoPar does not justify current pricing. I won't even get into availability.
Well, just a little. In 1990, I could have bought as many W-2 heads as I wanted for $99 each. 4 years before that, couldn't get them. By about 1992 the W-2's had dried up. The W-5 was on the way. They didn't produce enough of those and by 99 they had stopped production. I forget what year they started to make W-2's again. The point is...with a little work, the W-2 will easily make 700 HP on 1x4 and 775 on 2x4's. How many chevys will do that? The W-5 will do 50 to 75 more with ease. Why not produce that head in numbers to make the average guy want to buy them, and support them with rockers etc?
BTW, 700 HP in a 3000 door car should go mid 9's at 140 plus. Trim it down 400 lbs and it's a 8 second car.
The point is it could be done but the blocks are over priced and hard to get and the options aren't there. It's an end user problem.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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