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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Volare4life]
#1658762
12/03/14 08:34 AM
12/03/14 08:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
74yellowduster
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
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Quote:
Appreciate the dyno software MOPAR400.
Laroy those are pretty decent numbers considering the compression, I will be about 9.3/9.5-1 according to eagles calculator.
72N96RR, i already have KB240's and eagle H beams (6.358, but thank you for the recommendation.
GTX MATT I plan on running a 3000-3200 stall, just realised Turbo Action is literally 30mins from my house here in jacksonville fl. Gonna give them a call, they seem to get good reviews on there converters.
Unfortunately my order that was supposed to be here today, but fedex yet again has let me down and my order is still in georgia !! So one more day before I can get the rotating assembly balanced.
i put a 400 in my duster my "stage 1" engine lol. i spent about 5500 kb 240 pistons, zero deck 400 stock crank, eddy rpm heads had to be milled slightly, 10:1 eddy rpm inake, eddy cam that came with the kit 750dp carb
the lil 400 got 460hp peak on the dyno at 6100
stage 2 i might get some nice heads either full ported or maybe some stage v's or something. stroker kit etc. and efi.
or i may choose to put in a gen3 i havent decided yet. my tubular k frame will take sb/bb/gen2/gen3 so i have many options lol
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Volare4life]
#1658763
12/03/14 08:39 AM
12/03/14 08:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
74yellowduster
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
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Quote:
so got everything back from the machine shop, getting ready to assemble the engine, I do have a few questions before I fire it up, and I have killed the search button, but there are just so many different ways to cut the cake, it gets a bit confusing, and looking for clarity so i do it right, since this is my first real (mild) performance build.
I have read that you can run just straight water, then once its broke in drain and fill with anti-freeze, which makes sense especially if (knock on wood) you have leaks, but any truth to running it with no t-stat for break in ?
>>> most shops with a dyno run with no t-stat and straight water for 25 min at 2000 rpms.
I also remembering hearing when breaking in a fresh motor, that you should run exhaust manifolds vs headers, any truth to that ?
>>> yes because the headers can get red hot/ so use the dyno headers or some old manifolds. not new shiney headers definitely
Is the general rule of thumb to start it and set timing then bringing it up to the varied 1800-2000/2500rpms or start it bring it up to the varied rpm for break in, then bring it to idle and set the timing ?
What is the go to oil for break in, straight 30W, any 30W with a ZDDP additive ? conventional dino, semi or full syn ? I have also heard "break it in with what you plan on running in it" ?
>>> Brad Penn 20w50 or some other racing oil not straight weight not rotella fleet oil or some cheap stuff. run the good stuff.
How soon to change it after the break in is complete ? I have heard right after, 200-500 miles of mild driving, so ??
>>>first 500 miles vary the speeds dont drive at a constant 55 or something. continued high rpms can damage bearings and lots of jack rabbit starts before it's broke in can damage the rings. depends on your setup and how well everything is clearanced and built though. if everything is perfect it will take a lot of abuse. change oil at 500 or 1000 ... a good idea
And I know this topic has been beaten worse then a tough chunk of meat, BUT who uses normal dino oil with an additive vs say brad penn/gibbs/VR1 etc ? I don't mind paying extra for quality, but if you get the same results at the end of the day and can save a bit, hey its a good day.
How much ZDDP is too much ? in a diesel vs reg/semi syn/full syn,I know that the higher zinc is good, higher phosphorus is bad.
>>>just use Brad Penn, it's good stuff. you can order it off summit. valvoline has a racing oil as well. there are a few others but why experiment
Thanks as always,
-Mike
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: 74yellowduster]
#1658764
12/03/14 04:00 PM
12/03/14 04:00 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,186
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,186
CT
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To answer your questions on valve springs no, do not run stock springs. Comp 911s or something similar. Take off springs from Stealth or Eddy heads would work fine too. For break in what kind of distributor are you running? If its points get it pointed to number 1 and turn it until the points just start to open. If electronic get it pointing to number 1 and advance it a little, 10 degrees or so. Then snug it leaving it loose enough to turn if you need to. Plug in the vacuum advance. Use a real break in oil, 30W is good. I used the Comp Cams break in oil. Dump it after break in. If you want to take a ride around the block before dumping it you won't hurt anything, but the sooner the better. After you dump it refill with oil with another bottle of break in additive. I would do this for the first 2 oil changes. 500 miles on the second batch of oil after break in, and you can increase the second oil change if you want. I change my oil often, cleaner oil is better. Once you're done with break in VR1 or Brad Penn, either is fine. I used VR1 for my first few oil changes with a bottle of the comp cams additive. I put the Brad Penn in last time with the additive. Both of these oils have enough zinc and in a 20W50 both of these oils are extremely sticky and will keep your cam lubed when your engine sits so it wont be starting dry. I'm probably overdoing it adding the break in bottle to either, but I've got a 9 quart pan and rather be safe than sorry (too much zinc is not really good though, over 2000 PPM). No truth to manifolds vs headers IMO, maybe they think the back pressure will help seat the rings? I say old wives tale. If its because of glowing headers they aren't running enough timing, which brings me to: Pre-fill your carb bowls. If its a Holley remove the sight plugs. Pour some fuel in a dry water bottle and get a clean cap from a gear lube bottle. Trim it so it fits in the vent tube. Now fill the bowls until the fuel is at the sight plug bottom, just like setting the floats. Put the sight plugs back in. Hook up your choke if you have it. Turn the curb idle screw in far. If you've got the timing close it will fire up immediately. HAVE A HELPER. Hold the RPM above 2000 if the curb idle screw isn't enough. Have your helper adjust it until it is. If that isn't enough adjust the throttle cable to hold it. Now check your timing. This depends on how your dizzy is curved, but shoot for 40-45 degrees with the vacuum advance for now while running at 2000-2500 RPM. This is conservative but should be enough to keep your headers from glowing/EGTs being high. When you're done you can get it dialed up perfect. Come back for tuning advice if you need it. You can run water, no problem. Just make sure the engine will be out of close to freezing temps before you dump it. No thermostat? Might ask for trouble but should be fine. I'd put a 180 stat in it. If you run hot you have cooling or tune issues. If you can run half 110 leaded and half 93 pump for a break in on a street engine. The lead helps the engine run cooler. Vary the timing. 2000 minimum, so have it set to run there or slightly over. Get behind the wheel and bring it up to 2500 and hold it every few minutes. I like to wack it up to 3K or so a few times in between it running at 2000 and holding it at 2500. Once done get your timing set right. Then dump the oil and refill. With that cam shoot for a baseline of 15 initial, 34 total mechanical all in by 2500 or so, then find what the engine really prefers. I would run vacuum advance as well. Then take it out and put it under a load. Mat the pedal in high gear a few times, bringing the revs up higher each time (try to avoid a kickdown though, IDK if you have a MVB). Start 2K to 3K, back off. Let the engine slow down don't hit the brakes. Then 2K to 4K, etc. Then go burn some rubber 
Last edited by GTX MATT; 12/03/14 04:19 PM.
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1658765
12/03/14 06:51 PM
12/03/14 06:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Depending on the dist you can set the damper at about 30* BTDC then set the rotor to just point at the #1 tower and thats gonna be close(if you run a vac and mech dist set the dammper at 18* then set the rotor at #1... if the exhaust turns red during break in ADVANCE the dist more(you will hear the revs come up)... the above data is on the compression stoke(both valves closed) 
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1658766
12/04/14 01:51 AM
12/04/14 01:51 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
Volare4life
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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There is a guy on here that is hooking me up with a new set of springs and retainers off a set of stealth heads, I am going to be using a firecore vacuum dizzy and their pro-fit wires, msd blaster 2 coil, with the HEI upgrade for the ignition system. Getting a good deal on a case of brad penn 10w-30 right at $60 for a 12pk, the break in oil I am sure is gonna be cheaper still, and also have a case of wix filters standing by, I am going to be running an external pickup and I am concerned about the size difference in the HV vs external milodon pump covers, should I worry about enlarging the holes at all ?  so your saying to use an additive for the break in, and first 2 oil changes ? I thought that the BP had high enough ZDDP to not need anything else ? I should use 20W-50 in a freshly rebuilt motor ? I figured 10W-30 would be plenty thick. I run an aeromotive 340 stealth intank pump, so the bowls should fill quickly lol I appreciate clearing up on the header vs manifold issue as well, Thanks as always guys, -Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Volare4life]
#1658767
12/04/14 01:59 AM
12/04/14 01:59 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
Volare4life
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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Also no mufflers on the break in correct ? And 30mins is still the time to shoot for yea ?( my neighbors hate me anyway, good thing I am moving soon lol)
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Volare4life]
#1658768
12/04/14 02:08 AM
12/04/14 02:08 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,186
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,186
CT
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I would run mufflers for sure so I could hear the engine, I don't think there is any advantage there to not running them.
You should choose your oil weight based on your main and rod bearing clearances. 10W30 in general is good. But that 20W50 BP and VR1 is stickier. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when the car has been sitting for weeks so I run it.
And yeah I'd run boosted zinc levels in the first oil change or two after break in. It may be overkill but better to be safe than sorry.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1658770
01/10/15 01:19 AM
01/10/15 01:19 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
Volare4life
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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well sorry for bringing this thing back from the dead, in a unrelated note I ended up replacing the frame rails in my volare while waiting for parts from here or there, and it sucks, every single thing about it sucked, from cleaning up and fully welding the crappy factory spot and 1" weld beads, to boxing in and eliminating the factory jig holes, except painting them, that I enjoyed from this  to this  ALL FAITH AND MEASURED 50+ times    got this built up after several federal mogul bearing issues.....   and then i sent the heads out to get a good cleaning which worked great except I found 2 tiny cracks in a valve guide boss.... and this happened  better here on the bench the at 6,500 through the first shift  So the heads are going back to the shop monday for a set of guides, and probably gonna do hardened seats at the same time, not unless I can blend this out without needing to replace the guide, anyone in FL got a spare 906 head ?? sometimes I swear its like its not meant to be, that Gods saying hey dumb a$$ should have stuck with the slant.....
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Skeptic]
#1658774
01/10/15 09:52 PM
01/10/15 09:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
Volare4life
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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Sick fish bro, anyone have any opinion on the jacked up intake guide ? Do they even make a sleeve thick enough to make up the difference of the chunk missing ? I am strongly thinking about blending it in smooth and sharp edge free to prevent future cracks, and at the spring pressures I am running I think it will be ok
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Volare4life]
#1658775
01/11/15 12:29 AM
01/11/15 12:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,396
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,396
The Pale Blue Dot
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Quote:
Sick fish bro, anyone have any opinion on the jacked up intake guide ? Do they even make a sleeve thick enough to make up the difference of the chunk missing ? I am strongly thinking about blending it in smooth and sharp edge free to prevent future cracks, and at the spring pressures I am running I think it will be ok
Thanks, I'd just have bronze guide(s) installed. Should be fine.
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Skeptic]
#1658776
01/18/15 12:57 AM
01/18/15 12:57 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
Volare4life
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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well heads are at the shop, should have them back Monday/Tuesday, and the motor running by next weekend, pretty excited !!
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1658779
02/13/15 10:33 AM
02/13/15 10:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
Volare4life
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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I would but, #1 its a mild setup for now, #2 I haven't found a decent set of iron adjustable rocker's ( not real trust worthy of aluminium, and the ones that are high quality are just as much as if not more than a set of iron adjustable rockers.
Well since I haven't received any input on OP choices, I will go with my original plan, ported HV pump and cover and 1/2" internal pickup, slightly baffled pan and windage tray with extra louvers and a stepped center section, time to get fabbing,
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Volare4life]
#1658780
02/13/15 04:25 PM
02/13/15 04:25 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,906
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,906
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
I would but, #1 its a mild setup for now, #2 I haven't found a decent set of iron adjustable rocker's ( not real trust worthy of aluminium, and the ones that are high quality are just as much as if not more than a set of iron adjustable rockers.
Well since I haven't received any input on OP choices, I will go with my original plan, ported HV pump and cover and 1/2" internal pickup, slightly baffled pan and windage tray with extra louvers and a stepped center section, time to get fabbing,
-Mike
If you haven't already opened up the block for the 1/2 inch oil pickup you really don't need to do that, it is overkill for most motors  I used the stock 3/8 oil pickup and stock Mopar 6 quart 1970/1971 Street Hemi and 440 6 pak oil pan in my 518 C.I. low deck pump gas stroker motor for year and years of abuse  I did use the Federal Mogul full narrow groove truck main bearings and there HP rod bearings, both clearances where above .0030 I used Valvoline 5W20WT oil in that motor from day one, never a oiling issue as long as I kept the oil level above the add oil line on the calibrated dipstick BTW, that motor ran 9.99 ET motor only in my 3450 Lb duster through the complete exhaust system on Oregon 91 octane pump swill   My main message is there is a lot of misinformation out there on Mopar oiling systems, get it(the motor) ALL right and the stock stuff works fine  I have and do use the Milidon oiling parts on some of my race motors, not all of them though  If your planning on shifting the motor below 7000 RPM and not having it revved past 7000 RPM at the finish line you really don't need those expensive racing oil system parts I use the high volume Mellings and Speed Pro oil pumps in all my builds, I cut the bypass spring so I have 10 lbs of pressure per 1000 RPM of intended use, that is with hot thin oil The 518 motor had 18 to 20 lbs idling at 850 RPM with 180 + F oil temps, it would have 35 lbs at 1200 RPM and 65 lbs at or above 5500 RPM withthe 3/8 pick up and high volume Mellings oil pump with the spring cut back a coil or two IHTHs
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 400BB build up
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1658781
02/13/15 11:11 PM
02/13/15 11:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
Volare4life
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 119
Jacksonville , Fl
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I will have the melling HV pump, block has already been opened up for 1/2" and smoothed, just going to run the deep pan, I just wanted to make sure i was going to have zero oiling issues, i know i know, as long as the pick up remains covered I am good, but whats an extra $350 for the oil pump and dizzy drive when you have $3k in the motor ? I do want to push this car and see if a Silver state challenge 200mph+ is possible, motor has full groove bearings on the mains, so the added psi shouldn't be an issue, I was planning on running 10w-30, I mean we are in floridas winter month and a half right now so it is a bit brisk out, but I don't think it should be an issue for the other 10 1/2 months lol, especially in all the damn stop and go here in jacksonville,
-Mike
The answers are out there you just got to look hard enough
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