Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
EFI duty cycle question #1649467
07/22/14 12:09 AM
07/22/14 12:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
I'm confused ( as normal )
So a 4 cycle motor has 720 crank rotation for each power event. Typical cam has intake open, say for arguments sake, 250 Degrees. Assume air intake pre valve is moving or turbulent for a slightly longer period then when valve is open. I don't think the exact amount is crucial to my question. Typical Seq port injection has injector approx 5" from backside of intake valve. If when designing an EFI system, target is never, under full load/WOT, to have injector open/flowing more then 90%? of the time, correct?

So the question is, what is happening to all that fuel being sprayed in at 50?psi 5" from an intake valve in a relatively stagnant air intake tract?

Seems like it would really want to puddle upon hitting any surface other then the hot? intake valve, and it's doing this for over 300 degrees of crank rotation while the intake valve is closed?



Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: jcc] #1649468
07/22/14 01:07 AM
07/22/14 01:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
It really doesnt puddle to easy but it only fires
the injector just prior to the valve opening so you
have very little time when there isnt any air flow..
for production we didnt like going past 85%.. I flowed
a FEW THOUSAND injectors when I was working.. I'm
setting my injection up at 55 psi.. I'm use to that
pressure
EDIT
I'm drilling 2 manifolds tomorrow for my injectors

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 07/22/14 01:11 AM.
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: jcc] #1649469
07/22/14 01:21 AM
07/22/14 01:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 778
Sherwood park, Alberta.
go green Offline
super stock
go green  Offline
super stock

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 778
Sherwood park, Alberta.
What do you think a carbureted engine is doing during the closed intake intermission ?How about mechanical fuel injection ? If your injector is at 90%, its time to buy bigger injectors.

You have a thingy in EFI that is called a "injector phase angle " it is where you tell the injector to fire in relationship to the valve opening .Just think of it as example of the law of diminishing returns . When you are idling around ,the EFI has a measured fuel delivery at precise times and all is happy , but when you are a 8000 RPM its pretty much just blasting fuel in at precise times .

The reality is not the slow-motion lazy fuel hanging around the valve mental image that you are imagining .



6.50 @ 226 MPH 4.25 @ 186 MPH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX86DHGKBo0
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: go green] #1649470
07/22/14 01:57 AM
07/22/14 01:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Also thats why you have a few sensors to tell the
injector when and how much

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: jcc] #1649471
07/22/14 12:15 PM
07/22/14 12:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
So the consensus is the injector on seq, is only firing around when the time when the intake valve is moving?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: jcc] #1649472
07/22/14 12:34 PM
07/22/14 12:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Yep... thats part of the reason injection is better
on fuel economy, no waste of fuel

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: jcc] #1649473
07/22/14 12:37 PM
07/22/14 12:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
pro stock
herkamer  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
Information about wall wetting/puddling:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/xtau.htm

I would think the goal would be to fire the injector at the open valve, but at high speed and long PW times it may overlap with a closed valve.


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: herkamer] #1649474
07/22/14 01:07 PM
07/22/14 01:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto Offline
Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto  Offline
Trophy Winner

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
its amazing for years we were using batch without any issues....


BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: bigtimeauto] #1649475
07/22/14 01:17 PM
07/22/14 01:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
pro stock
herkamer  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
Quote:

its amazing for years we were using batch without any issues....



Batch or bank is fine for something that is not emissions critical. Sequential performance gains are very minimal; emissions is where sequential wins.


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: herkamer] #1649476
07/22/14 01:24 PM
07/22/14 01:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich Offline
top fuel
Mopar_Rich  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Sequential wins for idle control with a radical camshaft, because you can start the injection pulse just after the intake reversion pulse ends. Air is now flowing in the right direction and the fuel pulse itself is short. Once up in RPM batch works just about as well.

richard-nedbal.com

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: Mopar_Rich] #1649477
07/22/14 01:32 PM
07/22/14 01:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich Offline
top fuel
Mopar_Rich  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Back "in the day" when I was part of an EFI research team, we assumed spraying into an open valve would be the best approach. This was true at idle (see reversion above), but at higher RPMs when the pulse got so long that it was spraying some portion of its cycle on a closed valve we saw no negative effect. It turned out that spraying on the back of a hot intake valve gave the mixture time to atomize so it was ready for the next cycle. Same thing happened with a carburetor. The manifold design affected this because the runner length helps the charge stay to its assigned cylinder.

richard-nedbal.com

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: herkamer] #1649478
07/22/14 04:10 PM
07/22/14 04:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
Quote:

Information about wall wetting/puddling:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/xtau.htm

I would think the goal would be to fire the injector at the open valve, but at high speed and long PW times it may overlap with a closed valve.




Yea, that's what I talking about, the link might take a few rereads to digest.

This leads into another related topic, seems like any intake tract coatings would have a downside regarding the wall wetting/evaporation issue, either by causing worse puddling with a slick coating, or slow down evaporation with an insulating style coating.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: jcc] #1649479
07/22/14 04:52 PM
07/22/14 04:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

Quote:

Information about wall wetting/puddling:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/xtau.htm

I would think the goal would be to fire the injector at the open valve, but at high speed and long PW times it may overlap with a closed valve.




Yea, that's what I talking about, the link might take a few rereads to digest.

This leads into another related topic, seems like any intake tract coatings would have a downside regarding the wall wetting/evaporation issue, either by causing worse puddling with a slick coating, or slow down evaporation with an insulating style coating.




Thats why we spray the fuel in at higher pressures..
it will atomize much quicker.. the fuel particles
are much smaller.. and the pattern of the spray makes
a big difference also.. most all of the injectors now
spray a cone shape with different amount of fuel in
different areas of the cone.. I had to measure the
amount of fuel in each section of the cone... vs
the straight spray of fuel.. this type of injector
would puddle and as said, was hard on emissions..
you dont just spray in a certain amount of fuel but
how its sprayed in

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1649480
07/22/14 05:04 PM
07/22/14 05:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
T
Thumperdart Offline
I Live Here
Thumperdart  Offline
I Live Here
T

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
Quote:

Also thats why you have a few sensors to tell the
injector when and how much





Yep, pulse width............lower r`s less fuel wider width higher r`s more fuel tighter width or so I heard.


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: go green] #1649481
07/22/14 05:32 PM
07/22/14 05:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
B
BobR Offline
master
BobR  Offline
master
B

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
Quote:

What do you think a carbureted engine is doing during the closed intake intermission ?How about mechanical fuel injection ? If your injector is at 90%, its time to buy bigger injectors.

You have a thingy in EFI that is called a "injector phase angle " it is where you tell the injector to fire in relationship to the valve opening .Just think of it as example of the law of diminishing returns . When you are idling around ,the EFI has a measured fuel delivery at precise times and all is happy , but when you are a 8000 RPM its pretty much just blasting fuel in at precise times .

The reality is not the slow-motion lazy fuel hanging around the valve mental image that you are imagining .




If you could see the 9500 rpm event in slow motion the injector isn't closed much. Also, you really don't even need a cam position sensor on a race car.

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: BobR] #1649482
07/22/14 05:41 PM
07/22/14 05:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

Quote:

What do you think a carbureted engine is doing during the closed intake intermission ?How about mechanical fuel injection ? If your injector is at 90%, its time to buy bigger injectors.

You have a thingy in EFI that is called a "injector phase angle " it is where you tell the injector to fire in relationship to the valve opening .Just think of it as example of the law of diminishing returns . When you are idling around ,the EFI has a measured fuel delivery at precise times and all is happy , but when you are a 8000 RPM its pretty much just blasting fuel in at precise times .

The reality is not the slow-motion lazy fuel hanging around the valve mental image that you are imagining .




If you could see the 9500 rpm event in slow motion the injector isn't closed much. Also, you really don't even need a cam position sensor on a race car.




Even at 85% duty cycle(WOT) you would swear its on
all the time. I know it isnt but the sound sure sounds
like it.. its just a buzz(I was testing this stuff
on a test stand built just to test injectors without
any engine in play) so I could flow the injectors at
different duty cycles and we tested at different voltages..
you would be really surprised at how they act at low volts

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1649483
07/22/14 10:10 PM
07/22/14 10:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
Too Many Posts
383man  Offline
Too Many Posts
3

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
Heck back in 1989 I was trained on the Dodge Monaco which was not like the old Monaco's as this used a foreign V-6 and it sprayed all injectots all the time everytime an injector fired they all fired. Mopar also did this before they went to ported and sequential injection. The 3.0 v-6 would fire half the injesctors all the time. Which 3 depended on which cyl was fireing. And before that they used throttle body injection as most were 2 barrels and would spray both injectors on every dist signal. Course didn't need a cam sensor on that setup. They finally went to sequential in the early to mid 90's. Mopar also used the 02 just for the fine tuning as the addaptive memory had a larger control over fuel mixture and then once in the right addaptive cell the 02 would fine tune it. Ron

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: 383man] #1649484
07/22/14 10:24 PM
07/22/14 10:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

Heck back in 1989 I was trained on the Dodge Monaco which was not like the old Monaco's as this used a foreign V-6 and it sprayed all injectots all the time everytime an injector fired they all fired. Mopar also did this before they went to ported and sequential injection. The 3.0 v-6 would fire half the injesctors all the time. Which 3 depended on which cyl was fireing. And before that they used throttle body injection as most were 2 barrels and would spray both injectors on every dist signal. Course didn't need a cam sensor on that setup. They finally went to sequential in the early to mid 90's. Mopar also used the 02 just for the fine tuning as the addaptive memory had a larger control over fuel mixture and then once in the right addaptive cell the 02 would fine tune it. Ron




I use to flow the throttle body injector(note singular)
back in the beginning of Chrysler injection.. I
built the first flow stand at Chrysler years ago
for testing injectors... I've flowed a FEW injectors
over the years

Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1649485
07/22/14 11:07 PM
07/22/14 11:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
You mentioned different spray patterns, is there an injector that sprays at closer to a 90 degree angle,ie downstream, instead of the floor of the intake opposite of the injector?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: EFI duty cycle question [Re: jcc] #1649486
07/22/14 11:20 PM
07/22/14 11:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

You mentioned different spray patterns, is there an injector that sprays at closer to a 90 degree angle,ie downstream, instead of the floor of the intake opposite of the injector?




None that I have heard of
EDIT
also in the way a injector is designed it would be
real are to get one to fire at 90*.. if you look at
it, its got a long needle and seat per say.. the needle
is called the pintle which is pulled upward by the
electro magnet when fired and if the fuel touches
anything it would puddle so you cant just put a 90*
on the end of the injector

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 07/23/14 12:06 AM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1