Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: Jerry]
#1636239
06/21/14 05:43 AM
06/21/14 05:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,189 A Red State
SNK-EYZ
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I Live Here
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A Red State
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The FlowKooler pump like that is what I have on my car.
They definitely flow coolant, when I rev mine I can see the heater hoses flex up from it adding flow/pressure moving coolant.
Kayse can't keep up at all now. lol
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Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: SNK-EYZ]
#1636240
06/21/14 07:43 PM
06/21/14 07:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Tacoma, Washington USA
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Quote:
The FlowKooler pump like that is what I have on my car.
They definitely flow coolant, when I rev mine I can see the heater hoses flex up from it adding flow/pressure moving coolant.
What kind of pulleys are you using? Is your wp pulley smaller than the crank pulley (underdriven)?
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Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1636241
06/21/14 08:44 PM
06/21/14 08:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,784 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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"Im wondering if milling 1/16" off the face of the housing would be worth the $25 it would probably cost" Is this your idea? I like it, has anyone done it before? I would do it, but I prefer you do it first and get back to us. To insure getting a proper job, I would be willing t pay more. The 1/8" serves little purpose IMO, except you might "overflow" the system by the increase in pumping efficiency, and may then need a higher flow thermostat and/or smaller ratio pulleys,
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: jcc]
#1636242
06/21/14 10:25 PM
06/21/14 10:25 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487 Florida
scratchnfotraction
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with the 16 vanes, I would make sure to get the pump rpm correct so it does not cavitate at high rpm. maybe under drive it a little as it seems to flow more volume/pressure if it moves the heater hose with rpm/increases/decreases. the bigger the restriction the more chance of cavitaion at higher rpm if it cant by-pass some of the volume. maybe a 1/8" anti-cavitation plate welded to the vanes over milling the housing...which may then make it usless for a differet WP in the future. with that housing/wp I would be going with a full flow t-stat or no stat running a reducer/restrictor to 1/2 the hose size for some backpressure to slow the water down going thru the rad.
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Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: scratchnfotraction]
#1636243
06/22/14 12:02 AM
06/22/14 12:02 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521 Tacoma, Washington USA
Adam71Charger
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2013
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Tacoma, Washington USA
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Quote:
with the 16 vanes, I would make sure to get the pump rpm correct so it does not cavitate at high rpm.
maybe under drive it a little as it seems to flow more volume/pressure if it moves the heater hose with rpm/increases/decreases.
the bigger the restriction the more chance of cavitaion at higher rpm if it cant by-pass some of the volume.
maybe a 1/8" anti-cavitation plate welded to the vanes over milling the housing...which may then make it usless for a differet WP in the future.
with that housing/wp I would be going with a full flow t-stat or no stat running a reducer/restrictor to 1/2 the hose size for some backpressure to slow the water down going thru the rad.
Are you thinking the higher flow rate would damage the radiator?
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Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1636244
06/22/14 12:09 AM
06/22/14 12:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,784 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,784
Bitopia
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I would be concerned pump would be dead heading, and or start cavitating, belt slipping, etc not sure, I don't think pump pressure would ever be much higher then a 22lb? cap would allow just from temp increase. http://www.ehow.com/facts_7877316_can-deadhead-centrifugal-pump.html
Last edited by jcc; 06/22/14 12:13 AM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: BSB67]
#1636250
06/22/14 11:02 AM
06/22/14 11:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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that pump has a built in anticav plate. You can get the vanes as close as .040" to the housing round flat. Not sure how much material there is on a BB pump housing for how much you can safely mill off of it & you can use a slightly thicker gasket if you go too far. For $25 I'd do it. If you want to read up on the subject from one of the countries' foremost cooling experts go to www.moparchat.com then scroll down to and click on "circle track chat" then study Sanborns' cooling mods that are in a sticky at the top of the page (for good reason). It's 10 years old & still the top read on the subject. It's SB based but alot applies to BB's also. It'll take you a good chunk of time to get thru it. What BSB67 said on this: it'll up pump efficiency. It'll have "some" improvement. May or not be worth the time/money. Deadheading ain't an issue. The shaft on the front might be long enough to where you can pull the pulley forward to restore alignment as you need just enough shaft left to locate the pulley and the fan & if not as you know spacers of various types are available & you wont be at that stage (pulley alignment) till you do final mockup. I'll assume the engineering behind the 16 vanes is sound & produced more flow with the same or less turbulence. I have one of those "scroll" aftermarket pumps for my 451 & I'm wondering about it too which reminds me I need to get/post a pic of it & see what you guys think
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: Adam71Charger]
#1636252
06/22/14 06:38 PM
06/22/14 06:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,784 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,784
Bitopia
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Quote:
What I'm not understanding is why hi flow could be a problem,
A fair and an unanswered question. Let me ask the hypothetical question, when the water is speeded up by some means, and the water temp was then observed to be lower, but the oil temp went up? what would that indicate to you? How many people who report lower water temps also compare check pre and post oil temps?
The above is related to the problem, that IMO, has not been clearly answered. Everyone I think understands what cavitation is, basically water reaching a low enough pressure, for whatever reason, it vaporizes in a liquid as vapor bubbles. Watching a swimmer under water and seeing a stream of trailing submerged air bubbles is a good example I think. Now if the water pressure is higher, by depth of water or rad cap induced pressure, pressurized flow, or other means, those bubbles are more difficult to form. What I also believe is the problem we are faced with is, where those bubbles form or touch internal metal hot surfaces, there is a localized reduction in cooling/heat transfer, maybe even to the point of simple localised boiling, even with the rest of the system under pressure. My suspicions are, has anyone ruled this out as a problem with proof, and can anyone make the case that increasing flow rates does not exacerbate this potential issue (think faster swimmer=more bubbles), and I guess the emphasis in fairness should be on "potential" .
A pertinent non technical similar view on the flow and creation of bubbles in water.
http://smoothstrokes.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/no-bubbles-to-eat/
A little more technical but readable Wiki explanation:
"Hydrodynamic cavitation[edit] Hydrodynamic cavitation describes the process of vaporisation, bubble generation and bubble implosion which occurs in a flowing liquid as a result of a decrease and subsequent increase in pressure. Cavitation will only occur if the pressure declines to some point below the saturated vapor pressure of the liquid and subsequent recovery above the vapor pressure. If the recovery pressure is not above the vapor pressure then flashing is said to have occurred. In pipe systems, cavitation typically occurs either as the result of an increase in the kinetic energy (through an area constriction) or an increase in the pipe elevation.
Hydrodynamic cavitation can be produced by passing a liquid through a constricted channel at a specific velocity or by mechanical rotation of an object through a liquid. In the case of the constricted channel and based on the specific (or unique) geometry of the system, the combination of pressure and kinetic energy can create the hydrodynamic cavitation cavern downstream of the local constriction generating high energy cavitation bubbles.
Orifices and venturi are reported to be widely used for generating cavitation. A venturi has an inherent advantage over an orifice because of its smooth converging and diverging sections, such that that it can generate a higher velocity at the throat for a given pressure drop across it. On the other hand, an orifice has an advantage that it can accommodate more number of holes (larger perimeter of holes) in a given cross sectional area of the pipe.[2]
The cavitation phenomenon can be controlled to enhance the performance of high-speed marine vessels and projectiles, as well as in material processing technologies, in medicine, etc. Controlling the cavitating flows in liquids can be achieved only by advancing the mathematical foundation of the cavitation processes. These processes are manifested in different ways, the most common ones and promising for control being bubble cavitation and supercavitation. The first exact classical solution should perhaps be credited to the well- known solution by H. Helmholtz in 1868. The earliest distinguished studies of academic type on the theory of a cavitating flow with free boundaries and supercavitation were published in the book[3] followed by.[4] Widely used in these books was the well-developed theory of conformal mappings of functions of a complex variable, allowing one to derive a large number of exact solutions of plane problems. Another venue combining the existing exact solutions with approximated and heuristic models was explored in the work[5] that refined the applied calculation techniques based on the principle of cavity expansion independence, theory of pulsations and stability of elongated axisymmetric cavities, etc.[6] and in.[7]
A natural continuation of these studies was recently presented in[8] – an encyclopedic work encompassing all the best advances in this domain for the last three decades, and blending the classical methods of mathematical research with the modern capabilities of computer technologies. These include elaboration of nonlinear numerical methods of solving 3D cavitation problems, refinement of the known plane linear theories, development of asymptotic theories of axisymmetric and nearly axisymmetric flows, etc. As compared to the classical approaches, the new trend is characterized by expansion of the theory into the 3D flows. It also reflects a certain correlation with current works of an applied character on the hydrodynamics of supercavitating bodies.
[10]"
Last edited by jcc; 06/23/14 12:32 PM.
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Re: Newer FlowKooler pump on Mancini Aluminum housing
[Re: dogdays]
#1636255
06/23/14 08:51 PM
06/23/14 08:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324 Prospect, PA
BSB67
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master
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Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Howard Stewart is the waterpump dude, that's for sure.
Increasing pump efficiency MEANS that it pumps more water with the same amount of horsepower, or pumps the same amount of water with less horsepower.
Increasing pump efficiency should not increase the horsepower needed to turn the pump a given rpm.
I used to spec centrifugal pumps for a living.
Here are the laws for centrifugal pumps:
Flow increases linearly with rpm Q2 / Q1 = N2 / N1
Head (pressure) increases as the square of the speed increase. H2 / H1 = (N2 / N1)squared
Power increases as the CUBE of the speed increase. P2 / P1 = (N2 / N1)cubed
So, for example, slowing a pump down 10% reduces the power required to 73% of that required at full speed.
Centrifugal pumps behave in very predictable ways.
R.
So then you must have also checked motor current and flow rate as you tighten the impeller clearance. I've tested it more than once. Tighter clearance, more flow, higher motor current draw at a fixed rpm. I.E., takes more hp to drive. We would adjust them down to a few thousandths clearance. Now if you could finely monitor flow, and finely adjust and control rpm, you could realize the increased efficiency in the form of reduced power consumption (through less rpm) for a given flow rate.
Curious, did you sell any 16 blade impellers? I have not seen any, but maybe they are out there. I really don't know. Considering it is a multi million, probably billion $ industry, and 0.01% efficiency matters to serious fluid movers, you would think they would all have 16 blades. Maybe 32, probably better yet.
My point is you should be able to cool a street driven 600 hp motor with an Auto Zone water pump if everything else is right.
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