Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: Rob C]
#1634196
06/16/14 01:52 AM
06/16/14 01:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
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I put in a 2001 5.9 Magnum in my '68 Barracuda convertible. It ended up having a bad set of rings in the #2 cylinder (90 psi cranking), but still runs great. It does smoke on deceleration and uses oil like a quart of oil every tank.
Even with the weak cylinder,it's a mid to low 13 second car with 3.23 & a 727. I didn't want to pull the heads and get into all that, because I knew I was going to eventually build a stroker for the car and add an automatic overdrive and A/C.
I used a ECM from a 1998 Dodge 1/2 ton with manual trans computer from Solo Electronics in Florida, a Hotwire Auto wiring harness, which was well worth it. It only took 4 wires to hook it up. I modified the Durango throttle cable at the gas pedal, added a bigger cam and stronger valve springs from Hughes on 110 degree centerline, modded the beer keg intake, match ported the intake ports for heads and intake, added headers, 24 lbs Ford injectors and O2 bung, threw in some new rod bearings, replaced all seals, modified the fuel system for EFI and all my factory gauges work with the stock sensors. No Durango sensors aside from the EFI stuff were needed.
I used a narrower battery and modified my battery tray to clear the Durango power steering pump. It was easy.
I also used an SCT Tuner from Sean at HemiFever. The difference in performance with his tunes is amazing!
The good news about the SCT Tuner and OBDII is that is it will allow me to upgrade the tune via email from Sean to adjust the factory computer to run a 500 to 425 hp 408 stroker with ported Eddie Magnum heads, 30 lbs injectors and an even bigger cam. Everything is already in place for the transplant, which should happen within the next month.
Last edited by jbc426; 06/16/14 01:57 AM.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: Rob C]
#1634198
06/16/14 11:44 AM
06/16/14 11:44 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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here is zero reason to have no gauges in this swap.
All you have to do is install the stock 65 senders into the Magnum to run the stock gauges.
Heck only gauge I can think of is the water temp and oil pressure, neither of which is tough to put into the magnum.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: Rob C]
#1634204
06/17/14 06:57 PM
06/17/14 06:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
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You forgot to add the cost of a laptop to tune your Fast EFI System and the headache of getting it to run right while you chat on the phone with their tech deptartment every time you make some changes. It's not easy to adjust all those fuel and ignition tables. Some people make it look easy, but there are a lot of guys out there with EFI systems that run a long way from optimal.
I run a stock fuel tank with stock sending unit and dual 3/8" inlet/outlet with a surge tank system. It will run wide open at Willow Springs through the corners with as little as 3 gallons in the tank. Try that with your baffled tanks.
My speedometer is fed from my 727 cable just like a stocker. No speed sensors, factory gauge feedback or anti-lock brake sensors needed, not one aside from the engine mounted EFI stuff.
I just have to plug in my SCT Tuner into my OBDII port to switch from a 275/300 hp 5.9 with 24 lbs injectors to a 500/525 hp 408 stroker with 30 lbs injectors. I simply download the program from an email, load it on the SCT Tuner and then plug it into the car.
Does it cost more? Maybe if you look at one or two of the individual components and don't look at the big picture cost.
Is it easier to install and hook-up, most definitely! Just 4 wires and you are running, re-flash with an SCT Tune and you are running really good and don't forget you have to add an EFI style fuel system.
A lot of guys try to build and EFI fuel system with an expensive baffled fuel tank that barely works below 1/2 tank. That is a whole subject in and of itself.
Now, the hot set-up is heading away from the return style system in favor of the dead head system to keep the fuel cooler as it enters the fuel rails.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: jbc426]
#1634207
06/17/14 11:29 PM
06/17/14 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,668
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,668
Freeport IL USA
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Quote:
I run a stock fuel tank with stock sending unit and dual 3/8" inlet/outlet with a surge tank system. It will run wide open at Willow Springs through the corners with as little as 3 gallons in the tank. Try that with your baffled tanks.
My speedometer is fed from my 727 cable just like a stocker. No speed sensors, factory gauge feedback or anti-lock brake sensors needed, not one aside from the engine mounted EFI stuff.
I just have to plug in my SCT Tuner into my OBDII port to switch from a 275/300 hp 5.9 with 24 lbs injectors to a 500/525 hp 408 stroker with 30 lbs injectors. I simply download the program from an email, load it on the SCT Tuner and then plug it into the car.
Does it cost more? Maybe if you look at one or two of the individual components and don't look at the big picture cost.
Is it easier to install and hook-up, most definitely! Just 4 wires and you are running, re-flash with an SCT Tune and you are running really good and don't forget you have to add an EFI style fuel system.
A lot of guys try to build and EFI fuel system with an expensive baffled fuel tank that barely works below 1/2 tank. That is a whole subject in and of itself.
Now, the hot set-up is heading away from the return style system in favor of the dead head system to keep the fuel cooler as it enters the fuel rails.
OK, be gentle with me, swapping efi motors into non efi cars is new to me. We are going to install a 5.9 Magnum and trans from a 97 Dodge pickup into a 1957 Dodge wagon. We have the motor, trans, computer and engine harness.
We will need to build a fuel tank for this car (the old one is junk), the tank stands upright in the rear quarter of the wagon. The height of the wagon tank does not make just adding an in tank efi pump easy. What is this surge tank system you speak of? How do we set this up?
If I understand correctly, your using someone's modified wiring harness that is connected to an aftermarket wiring harness? If you have a website link to the companies you have gotten stuff from, or at least phone numbers, that would be a great help. I would like to keep this as simple as possible. We will deal with gauges at a different level.
We are probably not going to do any major modifications to the truck efi at this time (just getting it functioning in the 57 is enough challenge right now).
We have the front sheet metal off the 57 right now, and the original motor & trans are out of the car. The truck motor and trans are separated, but ready to reunite and find their way into the 57, we are waiting for a car oil pan and pickup tube to arrive. We have some spending money to make this project happen, it would be nice to see it on the road yet this year.
Gene
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Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: Andrewh]
#1634208
06/18/14 02:32 AM
06/18/14 02:32 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
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Quote:
I think you missed the part where they are all self tuning now.
Only to the degree limited by the factory to correct very small variations in the A/F ratio. Not to the degree that allows performance cams, high flowing heads, oversized injectors etc etc. Those modifications require remapping of lots of tables to optimize performance. Once the tables are close, the O2 sensors can also make mild corrections to the new tables.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: poorboy]
#1634209
06/18/14 02:38 AM
06/18/14 02:38 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I run a stock fuel tank with stock sending unit and dual 3/8" inlet/outlet with a surge tank system. It will run wide open at Willow Springs through the corners with as little as 3 gallons in the tank. Try that with your baffled tanks.
My speedometer is fed from my 727 cable just like a stocker. No speed sensors, factory gauge feedback or anti-lock brake sensors needed, not one aside from the engine mounted EFI stuff.
I just have to plug in my SCT Tuner into my OBDII port to switch from a 275/300 hp 5.9 with 24 lbs injectors to a 500/525 hp 408 stroker with 30 lbs injectors. I simply download the program from an email, load it on the SCT Tuner and then plug it into the car.
Does it cost more? Maybe if you look at one or two of the individual components and don't look at the big picture cost.
Is it easier to install and hook-up, most definitely! Just 4 wires and you are running, re-flash with an SCT Tune and you are running really good and don't forget you have to add an EFI style fuel system.
A lot of guys try to build and EFI fuel system with an expensive baffled fuel tank that barely works below 1/2 tank. That is a whole subject in and of itself.
Now, the hot set-up is heading away from the return style system in favor of the dead head system to keep the fuel cooler as it enters the fuel rails.
OK, be gentle with me, swapping efi motors into non efi cars is new to me. We are going to install a 5.9 Magnum and trans from a 97 Dodge pickup into a 1957 Dodge wagon. We have the motor, trans, computer and engine harness.
We will need to build a fuel tank for this car (the old one is junk), the tank stands upright in the rear quarter of the wagon. The height of the wagon tank does not make just adding an in tank efi pump easy. What is this surge tank system you speak of? How do we set this up?
If I understand correctly, your using someone's modified wiring harness that is connected to an aftermarket wiring harness? If you have a website link to the companies you have gotten stuff from, or at least phone numbers, that would be a great help. I would like to keep this as simple as possible. We will deal with gauges at a different level.
We are probably not going to do any major modifications to the truck efi at this time (just getting it functioning in the 57 is enough challenge right now).
We have the front sheet metal off the 57 right now, and the original motor & trans are out of the car. The truck motor and trans are separated, but ready to reunite and find their way into the 57, we are waiting for a car oil pan and pickup tube to arrive. We have some spending money to make this project happen, it would be nice to see it on the road yet this year.
Gene
I don't know if your transmission is computer controlled or not. That makes a big difference in which PCM you use.
I bought a "HotRod" harness from HotWire Automotive. They do mostly hemi transplant stuff now, but still know how to do the 5.9's.
I've written up extensive posts on the surge tank system I used in my '68 Barracuda.
I'm about to design a new style surge tank system that uses similar technology as the EFI system, but designed for use in my carbureted 1970 six pack e-body. I will get very high fuel flow without all the noise, no cavitation on launch or hard cornering (even at very low fuel levels) and OEM reliability. The trick is getting the fuel pressure down to carb friendly range.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: jbc426]
#1634210
06/18/14 11:16 AM
06/18/14 11:16 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,720
Andrewh
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,720
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you should probably start your own post but.
there are 2 types of od transmissions, and it depends on what you have, if you need to use the stock computer or you can go aftermarket, or whatever.
as stated above, which one makes a huge difference, as no one makes an aftermarket controler for the full electronic one yet.
for efi fuel system, there are 3 ways to set that up.
areomotive makes an intake pump and "baffle" type system.
custom tank or add baffles/sump in your old tank
surge canister
all of them run right around 400-500 bucks to do. Well except the baffles to your old tank if you can do the work.
the surge tank is basically a canister with your efi pump in it that holds some amount of fuel.
A secondary pump moves fuel from the gas tank to the surge tank.
you return from the efi pump goes back to the surge tank to keep it topped off.
Secondary pump keeps the fuel "new" as possible based on flow rates.
one last thing, as mentioned above, the stock ps pump does not clear the battery tray on later model cars. don't know on your 57. you cannot fill it with a battery in the car. unless you change to the van one, or chop up your battery tray.
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Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: Andrewh]
#1634211
06/18/14 01:29 PM
06/18/14 01:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,668
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,668
Freeport IL USA
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This project belongs to my son (Biggie here on Moparts), and any reference to "we" or "us" means either Biggie or myself. Biggie has a real job, and I hang around the shop and mess stuff up. I should tell you that this is being done at my welding shop. We have built several cars & trucks here before. We build driver cars, not show poodles or race cars, most have delivered over 50k road miles before we build another, and send them off to someone else. On everything efi we have done before, we have used the frame clip and swapped everything to keep the efi system intact. this is our first go around with melding efi into a car without a subframe swap. My current toy is a 48 Plymouth coupe on a full Dakota chassis with the full Dakota efi drive train.
At this point we are gathering info, once the process starts we will document the process with pictures, part numbers, and web links. We will begin a post then.
How can we tell if we have the full electric trans or not?
The engine, trans, and engine wiring are sitting here in the shop.
The goal it to make a simple, one stop, information location for anyone that might be considering such a swap in the future. Currently available info is scattered through several locations and many contain performance upgrades or other modifications, or don't have contact info. Not trying to criticize here, but look through this thread (which is one of the better ones available), and ask yourself "if I don't have any idea how to proceed, is all the info I need here?"
The answer is "Not yet." When a guy like me, with experience, has to ask basic questions, there is room for improvement. Sometimes a new thread is not the answer. Gene
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Re: 318/360 Magnum into older cars
[Re: Rob C]
#1634212
06/19/14 07:49 PM
06/19/14 07:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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I swapped a 99 magnum 318 into my previously carbed 1988 jeep wrangler. I used the factory fuel injection system.
I started with the ecu and harness out of the 99 dakota that the engine came from. I ended up scrapping that and going to a 95 ecu and wiring harness instead. Why? Because the 92-95 magnum harness is OBD1, which has 1/4 the wires and is 10x more simple than the OBD2 stuff, which ties together the engine computer, dash gauges and a bunch of other crap. After I gutted out the stuff from the donor and got it down to the basic engine harness, it was only a couple wires that went from the engine harness to my jeep. Basically keyed power, constant power and ground. The rest was all nicely self contained inside the 95 OBD1 harness. This was quite easy where the OBD2 dakota harness was WAY more complicated and my ECU was for an auto and my jeep is a standard so at a minimum I was going to need a manual trans ECU anyway, not to mention if it needed to be reprogrammed to work as a stand alone instead of searching for a body computer, dash gauges, etc. So I garbaged all that before wasting too much time on it and got the OBD1 harness from the junkyard for peanuts and got a manual trans ECU off ebay for real cheap. I swapped the sensors and injectors from the 95 junkyard engine onto my 99 engine as by then the sensor connectors had changed as well as the injector flow rate.
The result? She runs like a champ. Starts right up with the touch of the key and purrs. The only downside to using the OBD1 is you can't have someone reprogram your ECU for you like you can with the SCT tuner. However by that point I would have went with a megasquirt EFI controller instead. I have no intention of modding the engine anyway so I saw no need. Plus I figured I was not about to go through all the extra work to reverse engineer and transplant the OBD2 harness just to have to buy the SCT tuner and pay someone to reprogram it for me just to get it running and trust that same person will be around later on down the road if I do engine mods and need to email in my calibration.
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