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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Sport440]
#1618459
05/13/14 04:11 AM
05/13/14 04:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Plenty of functional vids out on Youtube to show that you set it off of the parallel planes between the tranny centerline and the pinion centerline. Somebody link them up. A picture is worth a thousand words, a vid even more.
The driveshaft can become part of the equation because of overall operating angles. But not likely on our race cars, jacked up 4 wheel drives , yep.
Just because there are plenty of videos, doesn't mean they are right for a race car............remember, we are RACING here, not trying to make the joints last 100k miles
Monte
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1618460
05/13/14 07:41 AM
05/13/14 07:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
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Quote:
Quote:
Plenty of functional vids out on Youtube to show that you set it off of the parallel planes between the tranny centerline and the pinion centerline. Somebody link them up. A picture is worth a thousand words, a vid even more.
The driveshaft can become part of the equation because of overall operating angles. But not likely on our race cars, jacked up 4 wheel drives , yep.
Just because there are plenty of videos, doesn't mean they are right for a race car............remember, we are RACING here, not trying to make the joints last 100k miles
Monte
See attached chart
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: B G Racing]
#1618463
05/13/14 11:00 AM
05/13/14 11:00 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
When building race car point the pinion at the trans tail shaft then adjust the finish angle of the pinion to the driveshaft for the type of suspension used. 
This is pretty much how I do it but I set the engine/trans
in the car and set the angle of the engine so it points
in a straight line(I use a laser in the rear main
and line it up on the pinion so its all in line).. then
when done roll the pinion to what is needed(1 or 2
degrees)
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: BJS racing]
#1618464
05/13/14 01:40 PM
05/13/14 01:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
When building race car point the pinion at the trans tail shaft then adjust the finish angle of the pinion to the driveshaft for the type of suspension used.
Or just guess like Quicktree does! 
it works, just like all the other methods 
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: 496 A-body]
#1618466
05/13/14 06:08 PM
05/13/14 06:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Plenty of functional vids out on Youtube to show that you set it off of the parallel planes between the tranny centerline and the pinion centerline. Somebody link them up. A picture is worth a thousand words, a vid even more.
The driveshaft can become part of the equation because of overall operating angles. But not likely on our race cars, jacked up 4 wheel drives , yep.
Just because there are plenty of videos, doesn't mean they are right for a race car............remember, we are RACING here, not trying to make the joints last 100k miles
Monte
See attached chart
Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!
Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.
Monte
Monte
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1618469
05/14/14 02:13 AM
05/14/14 02:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
[q
See attached chart
Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!
Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.
Yep the goal is Parallel "under power" in a "straight line" like you say.
But , with the majority of the cars here, the Parallel wont be in a straight line.
Therefor, the same goal is to be Parallel "under power" even if the tranny centerline and pinion centerline are not pointed at one anther like some of you race car builders would do then adjust from that.
The Goal is the same.
The Argument,
Measure off the pinion/driveshaft
Measure off the pinion/trannycenterline.
IMO, If you havent pointed your tranny centerline to the pinion.
Measure tranny centerline VS pinion centerline.
80% of us here fit that.
If you built your ride for a Parallel tranny and pinion angle centerline setup, you can use the driveshaft method and be just as accurate.
Further, besides all of the above, there will be no perfect Pinion angle setup in the real Dynamic world for most of us here, the movement at the rear is pretty dynamic.
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Sport440]
#1618470
05/14/14 04:26 AM
05/14/14 04:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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No......we really DON'T mean the same thing. Because in a stock bodied car, the trans is where it is. I don't care what the angle of the trans is, because there is nothing I can do about it. I don't care if the trans and pinion are parallel. My goal is the same......as close to straight as possible while "under power". So on that type car, I set the pinion angle as the reference between the driveshaft and the pinion. I don't care about "operating angles". I want it straight as possible, because straight eats less power. Also not concerned about how many people tell me that is wrong, because I have been doing it this way for over 30 years. Was TAUGHT to do it that way by a professional chassis builder and it has never given me an issue.
And trust me, I understand all about "operating angles" as I used to set shaft driven equipment everyday in plants.....But again, this is NOT something that has to run for thousands of miles, or joints last forever. These are RACE CARS
Monte
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: 496 A-body]
#1618472
05/14/14 10:00 AM
05/14/14 10:00 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
See attached chart
Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!
Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.
Jeez, the only reason for posting that chart was to show that a driveshaft is NOT necessary to set pinion angle. This topic seems to get tempers flaring. Bottom line is trans and pinion need to be equal and opposite angles under full power. If trans centerline slopes 2° down toward rear of car then pinion needs to slope 2° up toward front of car under full power.
On the chassis cars I build there is ZERO angle at
load.. no parallel of anything... its a straight line
as I said earlier in this
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1618473
05/14/14 10:14 AM
05/14/14 10:14 AM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
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Quote:
Quote:
See attached chart
Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!
Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.
Jeez, the only reason for posting that chart was to show that a driveshaft is NOT necessary to set pinion angle. This topic seems to get tempers flaring. Bottom line is trans and pinion need to be equal and opposite angles under full power. If trans centerline slopes 2° down toward rear of car then pinion needs to slope 2° up toward front of car under full power.
On the chassis cars I build there is ZERO angle at
load.. no parallel of anything... its a straight line
as I said earlier in this
That is great for people with the luxury of having a tube chassis but for cars using factory k member mounted engine and trans x member there is generally an angle to deal with. And in theory 0° is still an angular measurement and the equal and opposite angle is 0° LOL
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: 496 A-body]
#1618474
05/14/14 11:15 AM
05/14/14 11:15 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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From an engineering perspective the angle at the trans and at the pinion should parallel each other and the appropiate degrees of upward movement should be subtracted at the pinion and the pinion be set at that angle.The driveshaft angle will mimic the angle of the trans output shaft in relation to the pinion shaft.Once you establish this angle corrections should be made to insure you are within u-joint opperating range and not at any bind,then you can set the pinion angle for your type of suspension application.You can adjust operating range and parallel the front and back joints by raising and lowering the trans mount or tilting the rearend housing by bar adjustments,pad shims,or welded pad locations,these methods are also used for final pinion settings. I must agree with Monte that the best setup is to minimise or eliminate any angle except what is necessary for making the joints even under load.With most cars you have to deal with where the trans and rearend are located and do the best under those circumstances,but when building a car,build with the best alignment possible,which is a straight drive train under load. 
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: 496 A-body]
#1618476
05/14/14 01:33 PM
05/14/14 01:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
|
Quote:
See attached chart
Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!
Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.
Bottom line is trans and pinion need to be equal and opposite angles under full power. If trans centerline slopes 2° down toward rear of car then pinion needs to slope 2° up toward front of car under full power.
This is where we highly disagree. Under power, I want the driveline as straight as it can possibly be given the positioning of the trans and rear. Unless it is a chassis car, chances of it being built with the trans pointing at pinion and on same planes are slim to none. So on the average type, stock chassis race car, again UNDER POWER I want the driveshaft and pinion to form a straight line and the angle at the trans just is what it is. I am not worried about what are considered proper "operating angles". I want as straight as it can be, because again, that eats less power. One angle takes less effort to turn than two. That's pretty basic stuff.
As far as tempers flaring........mine sure isn't. A debate doesn't bother me and neither does somebody trying to tell me I am doing something wrong. When I have something that has worked for me for over 40 years, without incident, going to be pretty hard to convince me it's wrong. Especially when I KNOW that people who know more than me also do it the same way.
Monte
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