WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES

Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 02:03 AM

To answer the question, it is a Miller C-4224 Inclinometer. Have one in my box for nostalgia's sake but use a SPI digital angle finder to do set-up.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 02:16 AM

looks like a converted windshield wiper arm or a hood hinge

Posted By: Sport440

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 06:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

[q
See attached chart

Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!

Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.

Yep the goal is Parallel "under power" in a "straight line" like you say.

But , with the majority of the cars here, the Parallel wont be in a straight line.

Therefor, the same goal is to be Parallel "under power" even if the tranny centerline and pinion centerline are not pointed at one anther like some of you race car builders would do then adjust from that.

The Goal is the same.

The Argument,

Measure off the pinion/driveshaft

Measure off the pinion/trannycenterline.

IMO, If you havent pointed your tranny centerline to the pinion.

Measure tranny centerline VS pinion centerline.

80% of us here fit that.

If you built your ride for a Parallel tranny and pinion angle centerline setup, you can use the driveshaft method and be just as accurate.

Further, besides all of the above, there will be no perfect Pinion angle setup in the real Dynamic world for most of us here, the movement at the rear is pretty dynamic.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 08:26 AM

No......we really DON'T mean the same thing. Because in a stock bodied car, the trans is where it is. I don't care what the angle of the trans is, because there is nothing I can do about it. I don't care if the trans and pinion are parallel. My goal is the same......as close to straight as possible while "under power". So on that type car, I set the pinion angle as the reference between the driveshaft and the pinion. I don't care about "operating angles". I want it straight as possible, because straight eats less power. Also not concerned about how many people tell me that is wrong, because I have been doing it this way for over 30 years. Was TAUGHT to do it that way by a professional chassis builder and it has never given me an issue.

And trust me, I understand all about "operating angles" as I used to set shaft driven equipment everyday in plants.....But again, this is NOT something that has to run for thousands of miles, or joints last forever. These are RACE CARS

Monte

Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 01:35 PM

See attached chart

Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!

Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.

Jeez, the only reason for posting that chart was to show that a driveshaft is NOT necessary to set pinion angle. This topic seems to get tempers flaring. Bottom line is trans and pinion need to be equal and opposite angles under full power. If trans centerline slopes 2� down toward rear of car then pinion needs to slope 2� up toward front of car under full power.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 02:00 PM

Quote:

See attached chart

On the chassis cars I build there is ZERO angle at
load.. no parallel of anything... its a straight line
as I said earlier in this

Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 02:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

See attached chart

Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!

Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.

Jeez, the only reason for posting that chart was to show that a driveshaft is NOT necessary to set pinion angle. This topic seems to get tempers flaring. Bottom line is trans and pinion need to be equal and opposite angles under full power. If trans centerline slopes 2� down toward rear of car then pinion needs to slope 2� up toward front of car under full power.

On the chassis cars I build there is ZERO angle at
load.. no parallel of anything... its a straight line
as I said earlier in this

That is great for people with the luxury of having a tube chassis but for cars using factory k member mounted engine and trans x member there is generally an angle to deal with. And in theory 0� is still an angular measurement and the equal and opposite angle is 0� LOL

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 03:15 PM

From an engineering perspective the angle at the trans and at the pinion should parallel each other and the appropiate degrees of upward movement should be subtracted at the pinion and the pinion be set at that angle.The driveshaft angle will mimic the angle of the trans output shaft in relation to the pinion shaft.Once you establish this angle corrections should be made to insure you are within u-joint opperating range and not at any bind,then you can set the pinion angle for your type of suspension application.You can adjust operating range and parallel the front and back joints by raising and lowering the trans mount or tilting the rearend housing by bar adjustments,pad shims,or welded pad locations,these methods are also used for final pinion settings.
I must agree with Monte that the best setup is to minimise or eliminate any angle except what is necessary for making the joints even under load.With most cars you have to deal with where the trans and rearend are located and do the best under those circumstances,but when building a car,build with the best alignment possible,which is a straight drive train under load.

Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 03:41 PM

If you build a chassis car with zero angle through both U-joints at load, the pinion is aligned with the transmission under power.

If you move this rearend downward 2", the pinion is parallel to the transmission. The result is the straightest, most efficient driveline set up possible for a 2-joint shaft when the transmission and pinion do not operate on the same plane.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 05:33 PM

Quote:

See attached chart

Sorry, but I don't need that worthless chart to know how to set the pinion angle in my race car.......LOL!!

Only ONE thing to remember in a race car......Angles eat power. So while "under power" the want the driveline in as straight a line as it can possibly be within the parameters of how the parts are mounted. Set pinion angle accordingly. NOTHING else matters.

Bottom line is trans and pinion need to be equal and opposite angles under full power. If trans centerline slopes 2� down toward rear of car then pinion needs to slope 2� up toward front of car under full power.

This is where we highly disagree. Under power, I want the driveline as straight as it can possibly be given the positioning of the trans and rear. Unless it is a chassis car, chances of it being built with the trans pointing at pinion and on same planes are slim to none. So on the average type, stock chassis race car, again UNDER POWER I want the driveshaft and pinion to form a straight line and the angle at the trans just is what it is. I am not worried about what are considered proper "operating angles". I want as straight as it can be, because again, that eats less power. One angle takes less effort to turn than two. That's pretty basic stuff.

As far as tempers flaring........mine sure isn't. A debate doesn't bother me and neither does somebody trying to tell me I am doing something wrong. When I have something that has worked for me for over 40 years, without incident, going to be pretty hard to convince me it's wrong. Especially when I KNOW that people who know more than me also do it the same way.

Monte

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 05:47 PM

how much power are we talking about? that number may make rethink? 1hp-50?

Posted By: dizuster

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 06:32 PM

Assuming we don't have the option to change crossmembers, ride heights, or anything else...

So if you have a trans that has 2 degree's to the driveshaft.

Options/opinions are:

1) Give the pinion 2 degree's (under load) to be equal and opposite of the trans.

or

2) Give the pinion 0 degree's under load so at least 1 of the joints is optimized.

That's basically the two opinions we're talking about here right?

Posted By: dizuster

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 06:44 PM

Here is an interesting excerpt from circle track magazine. They actually found that having the angles EQUAL AND OPPOSITE made more HP at the tire then getting the driveshaft as straight as possible...

VERY interesting...

"At the end of the last set of runs, we experimented with pinion angles and actually learned some interesting facts. Our Winston Cup consulting engineer, Terry Satchell, told us the most important factor in pinion/driveshaft/transmission angles was to have equal angles at each end of the driveshaft. This would be the most efficient design, yielding less loss of horsepower from bearing bind at the chassis attitude that is the result of the car accelerating. What we discovered was not what we had expected.

We did experience a slight gain in horsepower due to changes in the pinion angle. We could not change the transmission angle, so all of the changes were to the pinion. We recorded a run at zero pinion angle and then at 10 degrees of pinion angle. We expected a loss in horsepower at the greater pinion angle, but actually experienced a net gain in horsepower. This was very confusing until we thought about what Terry had said. When the pinion was at 10 degrees, the angles at the ends of the driveshaft were opposite and closer to equal. This was a better situation providing less resistance than when the pinion was at zero degrees with the transmission angle at a much different angle.

Most racers only measure the pinion angle relative to the ground when they should measure both the pinion and transmission angles relative to the driveshaft. The angles should be equal and either opposite or in the same direction to help eliminate vibration and drag through the U-joints.

This yields more rear wheel horsepower as well as longer component life due to vibration-free movement as the bearings rotate.
"

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 07:29 PM

Equal angle or angles that parallel each other is the same interpetation.This is the best situation when when the trans is higher or lower than the rearend.If your building a chassis then it is best to locate both componants as near as straight as possible and set for the torqued or loaded change.As far as circle track cars are concerned,they shouldn't be compared to a drag car.A drag car should be built as stiff as possible and travels in a staight line under constant load,a circle track car chassis has a flex factor to contend with as well as loading and unloading of both the chassis and drivetrain.To apply circle track tech to a drag car would like to try and breed a poodle and a tiger,some thing bad is going to happen.

Posted By: dizuster

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 07:45 PM

I wasn't making the point that this was a circle track car.

My point was that they dyno'd a car (any car), and on the chassis dyno the equal and opposite angles made more horsepower to the tire then when they had the pinion set to 0 degree's.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 07:51 PM

Quote:

I wasn't making the point that this was a circle track car.

My point was that they dyno'd a car (any car), and on the chassis dyno the equal and opposite angles made more horsepower to the tire then when they had the pinion set to 0 degree's.

I dont know how that can be... if you have a engine/trans
in line with a solid shaft(no U-joints) to the diff
how can that eat power... basically we are trying
to eliminate the U-joints from the picture

Posted By: dizuster

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 08:00 PM

I think their point was that having the trans at 10 degree's and the pinion at zero, actually made less power then having them at 10 and 10.

Clearly having both at zero would make max power. But as many have pointed out, sometimes it hard to change the trans angle. Looks like this is at least one example where equal and opposite angles made more power then just focusing on getting the pinion to zero.

My guess is the harmonics rob more power then the equal/opposite angles.

Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 08:42 PM

The method of not accounting for the angle of the transmission is described in the Direct Connection chassis manual and they call it "driveshaft angle" and "rear u-joint angle"...must be something different than pinion angle?

When I called Calvert Racing to find out where to set my "pinion angle" when installing Caltracs Travis replied "3� nose down to transmission, not driveshaft" I just chuckled and said yup.

Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 10:04 PM

You're kind of stuck with the vertical rear u-joint location where it is. That's determined by the type of rear and tire size. A 9" with a 32" tire is around 13 3/4" off the ground. If you are able to install the engine/trans assembly in a location that allows the operating angles to be correct, while having the trans centerline parallel with the pinion centerline, that's great.

The "chart" is great except that it doesn't consider that the pinion centerline could be higher than the trans centerline with the front of the engine higher than the front u-joint. I've worked on plenty of lowered and backhalved cars with the engine/trans on stock mounts and angled down a couple of degrees or more front to rear. In order to get the pinion parallel with the trans, the pinion angle would have to go positive (definitely not acceptable). A lot of these cars end up with a "broken back" configuration to keep the pinon angle negative.

If the car was built with the driveline stringlined from the front of the crank, through the center of the trans, to the center of the pinion, it makes it easy. Most cars weren't and you have to work with what you have to maintain the pinion angle where it needs to be. Not a lot of wiggle room with the pinion angle. At some point, you have to live with it or move the engine/trans mounts. Stock front clip and/or stock floors? That makes it even tougher.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 10:04 PM

Let's define pinion angle in it's simplest form that most incounter on their cars.The engine and trans are located by the mounts,the rearend is located by it's mounting points.Depending on your type of suspension you can calculate how much pitch or upward rotation you need to best align the ujoint under load.The trans position is fix,so the rear u-joint is where the binding may occur and that is what needs the attention.As has been repeated many times,springs need 4 to 6 degrees negative of the driveshaft angle,ladder bars 2 degrees negative of the driveshaft angle and 4 links need only 1 degree negative of the driveshaft angle.We did a lot of testing and have videos of the the rear end pitch and upward rotation as the car was launched under load on the strip.You can view some of these videos on Bob George Racing on U-Tube.Most all racers,chassis shops and builders use the method we have describing to set pinion angle.We like many others understand there are other methods but we tend to stick with what has worked for us for over 50 years.To give an example our 65 Hemi has had the same driveshaft and u-joints for almost 20 years and thousands of passes.The KISS method of setting pinion angle is the lest complicated and works.

Posted By: dizuster

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 10:17 PM

Quote:

I've worked on plenty of lowered and backhalved cars with the engine/trans on stock mounts and angled down a couple of degrees or more front to rear. In order to get the pinion parallel with the trans, the pinion angle would have to go positive (definitely not acceptable).

Why is it definitely not acceptable? I don't understand exactly why the car would care...

If the pinion and output shaft are parallel... the angles HAVE to be the same. They could both be 2 degree's... or they might both be 10 degree's. But they are equal.

What the circle track article referenced above showed on the dyno that having both of them at 10 degree's to the driveshaft, is better then having the front at 10 degree's and the rear at 0.

Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/14/14 11:27 PM

Quote:

You're kind of stuck with the vertical rear u-joint location where it is. That's determined by the type of rear and tire size. A 9" with a 32" tire is around 13 3/4" off the ground. If you are able to install the engine/trans assembly in a location that allows the operating angles to be correct, while having the trans centerline parallel with the pinion centerline, that's great.

The "chart" is great except that it doesn't consider that the pinion centerline could be higher than the trans centerline with the front of the engine higher than the front u-joint. I've worked on plenty of lowered and backhalved cars with the engine/trans on stock mounts and angled down a couple of degrees or more front to rear. In order to get the pinion parallel with the trans, the pinion angle would have to go positive (definitely not acceptable). A lot of these cars end up with a "broken back" configuration to keep the pinon angle negative.

If the car was built with the driveline stringlined from the front of the crank, through the center of the trans, to the center of the pinion, it makes it easy. Most cars weren't and you have to work with what you have to maintain the pinion angle where it needs to be. Not a lot of wiggle room with the pinion angle. At some point, you have to live with it or move the engine/trans mounts. Stock front clip and/or stock floors? That makes it even tougher.

As long as the trans and pinion centerline angles are equal and opposite what does it matter if the pinion centerline is above or below the trans centerline?

Posted By: Sport440

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 12:17 AM

Quote:

Assuming we don't have the option to change crossmembers, ride heights, or anything else...

So if you have a trans that has 2 degree's to the driveshaft.

Options/opinions are:

1) Give the pinion 2 degree's (under load) to be equal and opposite of the trans.

or

2) Give the pinion 0 degree's under load "to the driveshaft so at least 1 of the joints is optimized.

That's basically the two opinions we're talking about here right?

Number 1 is the correct method. Number 2 is the Incorrect method.

You Cant optimize 1 ujount angle. They Work in sink with one another.

Sure you have one Less angle, But thats a Bad thing. Yes it will work. But its working in a bind eating HP.

The Type of Vids I referred to earlier can and will Clearly show this. Wish I could Link them.

#1 The Best Angle is No angle. #1

#2 Next would be Parallel angles on seperate planes #2 "80% of us'

"3 There isnt a #3 IMO But if there must be, Measure off the shaft, its workable, but a guess.

No flared temper here either

Just the Tech Facts.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 12:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Assuming we don't have the option to change crossmembers, ride heights, or anything else...

So if you have a trans that has 2 degree's to the driveshaft.

Options/opinions are:

1) Give the pinion 2 degree's (under load) to be equal and opposite of the trans.

or

2) Give the pinion 0 degree's under load "to the driveshaft so at least 1 of the joints is optimized.

That's basically the two opinions we're talking about here right?

Number 1 is the correct method. Number 2 is the Incorrect method.

You Cant optimize 1 ujount angle. They Work in sink with one another.

Sure you have one Less angle, But thats a Bad thing. Yes it will work. But its working in a bind eating HP.

The Type of Vids I referred to earlier can and will Clearly show this. Wish I could Link them.

#1 The Best Angle is No angle. #1

#2 Next would be Parallel angles on seperate planes #2 "80% of us'

"3 There isnt a #3 IMO But if there must be, Measure off the shaft, its workable, but a guess.

No flared temper here either

Just the Tech Facts.

I'll stick with the way I do it... thats the best
way... so everything is in line and zero hp taken..
so this is the last post for me on this crap

Posted By: Sport440

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 12:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll stick with the way I do it... thats the best
way... so everything is in line and zero hp taken..
so this is the last post for me on this crap

Mike, Yep that is the Best way as per my post #1

Also, I think you interpreted that circle track dyno test wrong.

When they used 0 degrees pinion that was with the shaft.

Not the tranny/shaft/pinion like you thought, That would be best.

Its when they "added angle" to make the joints more parallel to the two seperate planes that they got more HP. Understandable IMO.

That was my interpretation.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 04:51 AM

Yep......I am out as well. This has wasted enough of my time. I know what works for me and I will continue to do so.

As far as the statement above about the trans being 2* down, meaning the rear would have to be 2* up and somebody thinking that was CORRECT just because angles were equal on both ends. Try that in a high HP hard leaving car and let me know how it goes. Just make sure you have good loops and some extra parts.......LOL!!!

Monte

Posted By: Sport440

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 06:16 AM

Quote:

Yep......I am out as well. This has wasted enough of my time. I know what works for me and I will continue to do so.

As far as the statement above about the trans being 2* down, meaning the rear would have to be 2* up and somebody thinking that was CORRECT just because angles were equal on both ends. Try that in a high HP hard leaving car and let me know how it goes. Just make sure you have good loops and some extra parts.......LOL!!!

Monte

The Term used was "Under load", so your numbers would be correct

Plus "Equal and Opposite" angles. Witch would make them Ideal and parallel under load.

It was just a example of a perfect scenario of two different planes of the two centerlines that we stock bodied cars see.

A perfect scenario of a Wrong example was #2 where the angle of the pinion was 0 with the shaft, but not with the tranny.

U joints dont work that way, they will be in a bind and eat HP.

Those are the Facts Mam

or maybe just my opinion of the facts.

Everthing is fine though

10 years + going on, the two pinion angle camps have never seen eye to eye. But we still get along.

In reality, our street/race car pinion angles will be so dynamic in pinion movement, that your two methods of choice wont make a whole lot of difference.

But technically/factually U joints work together and they want to be in sync., working in Parallel angles. Whether it be straight or on different planes. If there not, they are binding. We set Pinion angle to Best get them there under load.

This is a Fact, not a Opinion.

IMO, This part of it, should never ever be the Debate part of it.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 06:47 AM

Nope........if it was FACT as you say, there would not be two obviously opposing sides. As with most everything, it is strictly opinion as to what guys thinks works the best.

You can show me all the charts, graphs, diagrams and anything else you want, but that doesn't make it fact. It makes it the opinion of the guy that drew them.

And facts or not, try the trans down, pinion up scenario that was mentioned above with any significant offset and a high hp car will spit out driveline parts faster than you can fix them. And while this result may not be a fact, it is something I KNOW will happen.

Monte

Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 01:33 PM

Quote:

Nope........if it was FACT as you say, there would not be two obviously opposing sides. As with most everything, it is strictly opinion as to what guys thinks works the best.

You can show me all the charts, graphs, diagrams and anything else you want, but that doesn't make it fact. It makes it the opinion of the guy that drew them.

And facts or not, try the trans down, pinion up scenario that was mentioned above with any significant offset and a high hp car will spit out driveline parts faster than you can fix them. And while this result may not be a fact, it is something I KNOW will happen.

Monte

http://www.rosslertrans.com/Pinion%20angle.htm

I guess somebody better contact these guys and let them know that they need to get their act together and correct the misleading information they have provided to guys running their transmissions in very high horsepower applications before they get swarmed with lawsuits from guys who have spit driveline components.

I've also been told by a DC bible thumper that I shouldn't use this method because Rossler is a GM guy, anyone who would make such a statement just reinforces the fact that they are an IDIOT!

Posted By: 496 A-body

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 01:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yep......I am out as well. This has wasted enough of my time. I know what works for me and I will continue to do so.

As far as the statement above about the trans being 2* down, meaning the rear would have to be 2* up and somebody thinking that was CORRECT just because angles were equal on both ends. Try that in a high HP hard leaving car and let me know how it goes. Just make sure you have good loops and some extra parts.......LOL!!!

Monte

The Term used was "Under load", so your numbers would be correct Plus "Equal and Opposite" angles. Witch would make them Ideal and parallel under load.

It was just a example of a perfect scenario of two different planes of the two centerlines that we stock bodied cars see.

A perfect scenario of a Wrong example was #2 where the angle of the pinion was 0 with the shaft, but not with the tranny.

U joints dont work that way, they will be in a bind and eat HP.

Those are the Facts Mam

or maybe just my opinion of the facts.

Everthing is fine though 10 years + going on, the two pinion angle camps have never seen eye to eye. But we still get along.

In reality, our street/race car pinion angles will be so dynamic in pinion movement, that your two methods of choice wont make a whole lot of difference.

But technically/factually U joints work together and they want to be in sync., working in Parallel angles. Whether it be straight or on different planes. If there not, they are binding. We set Pinion angle to Best get them there under load.

This is a Fact, not a Opinion.

IMO, This part of it, should never ever be the Debate part of it.

2� trans down and 2� pinion up is parallel and the relative pinion angle would be 0� under load...Not 2� nose up which is what I think some of these guys are interpreting it as...drive shaft angle is irrelevant as u-joint angle will be equal and opposite at both joints.

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 04:23 PM

Been reading all this and thought i would add one thing. When a u-joint is angled one side speeds up and the other side slows down hence loss of hp. So the idea of both joints being opposite but same angle would cancel out the speeding up and slowing down. I would still like to have them straight as possible but very hard to get in a regular chassis. The best joint would be a CV(constant velocity) type, no speeding up or slowing down.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 05:55 PM

FWIW I`ve been driving/racing my junk w/as much as 7 degrees nose down w/multi-leafs and never a problem. The drive shaft in my car now is 13+ years old on the same u-joints and no problems and just brought it down to 4-5 nose down w/my rear end mods. 0-on trans and 4-5 down on rear w/Cal-tracs...........

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 05:58 PM

Oh no.........a chart printed on the internet.....well damn it. I guess it HAS to be true...........LOL!!!

There are two sides and this will never change and it seems pretty damn obvious that both work.........which means........in the REAL world, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

And my statement above about the 2 down and 2 up.......you are not getting my meaning. You are so concerned about proper "angles" that you are missing the point. What if the trans was 6 down, would you put the pinion 6 up? If you did, the shaft and joints would have a stupid angle and will NEVER stay under a high hp car....yet the "operating angle" would be deemed correct under your rules. That is the point.

Look, you will NEVER convince me and I will NEVER convince you, so this is a waste of time.........just like it ALWAYS is.

Monte

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 06:02 PM

They need to come towards each other not go away..........

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 06:35 PM

Quote:

They need to come towards each other not go away..........

The pinion U joint should raise up under acceleration towards the tranny yoke angle to reduce the pinion angle, not be aligned standing still and move up past straight alignment and push away from the tranny yoke angle forming a upside down V at max pinion shaft travel

All U joints need to have a difference in angles to the shafts driving them to work and make the inside needle bearings rotate, if they don't rotate they will wear(bernell) into the pinion shafts and distentrigrate from lack of lubrication

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 07:07 PM

In my little way that`s kinda what I was saying Cab..........

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 07:31 PM

Why does something so simple have to become so complicated?The comprehension of the process has been explained over and over yet many want to complicate the process to make it seem like rocket science engineering.Weather the joints are inline or on parallel planes the final pinion angle,1,2 or 4+ degrees constitue the working angle and the needles will move freely when the load or movement occurrs in the joint.It's not like they are constantly rotating and as long as the have lube will last.U-joints are made to compensate for varainces in alignment,up and down,left and right.The best case senerio is the least amont of angle in any direction.Some where there is an engineer or chassis builder

and

HFAO

Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 08:18 PM

Quote:

2� trans down and 2� pinion up is parallel and the relative pinion angle would be 0� under load...Not 2� nose up which is what I think some of these guys are interpreting it as...drive shaft angle is irrelevant as u-joint angle will be equal and opposite at both joints.

If you lower the trans yoke by lowering the front of the car or put a big tire on it and raise the rear end up into the chassis, the pinion angle (difference between driveshaft and pinion angles) will quickly go positive at some point, if parallel is the only thing taken into consideration. Imagine moving the centerline of one of the yokes up or down while the other remains stationary. What will that do to the operating angles, parallel or not?

I agree, having the trans and pinion centerlines parallel or close to it is beneficial and can be accomplished with engine/trans location. However, pinion angle, the relationship between the d-shaft and the pinion, has to remain correct according to the type of suspension and never go positive. It is a setting, not an adjustment.

It's not that one's right and one's wrong. Both matter, but one is most important and has to be right.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/15/14 11:53 PM

Quote:

There are two sides and this will never change and it seems pretty damn obvious that both work.........which means........in the REAL world, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

Monte

you finally figured it out

Posted By: Sport440

Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES - 05/16/14 01:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

There are two sides and this will never change and it seems pretty damn obvious that both work.........which means........in the REAL world, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

Monte

you finally figured it out

Oh, it will change alright.

Dont like to say never. Its a 20 year side project of mine to get it to change. Only 10 years into it though.

WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES