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TnT with converters have me puzzled? #1578044 02/12/14 03:44 PM 02/12/14 03:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN hemidup OP super stock
hemidup OP super stock Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN	Here's what I have. A daily driver 2005 392 supercharged G3 Hemi 4x4 Ram pickup, RFE545 auto trans with 3.92's. At the time of testing the truck weighed 5185lb +/- depending on fuel. Both test's were at Cedar Fall's 2 weeks apart using prototype Edge Racing converters with one being an 11" and the other a 9.5". Both flash at 3800 rpm and the difference in weight is only 2.5 lbs. Nothing else was changed. Made multiple passes with pretty much the same e.t. and mph results. 11" converter track results. Shift points set at 6100 rpm, shift recovery at 4100 which is normal in a stock truck and the shift selector in D for dumb. 60' 1.48 330' 4.34 1/8 6.86 @ 97.6 1/4 11.05 @ 113.2 Happy with the short times, but questioned myself with the 1/4 mph since it only picked up 15 mph in the back half so I pulled it and installed the 9.5" to test. 9.5" converter track results. Shift points set at 6100, and the shift recovery never pulled the motor below 5000 rpm with shift selector in D for dumb. 60' 1.49 330' 4.44 1/8 7.0 @ 98 1/4 11.03 @ 118 Between the 2 coverters the prototype 9.5" slowed my short times down slightly ( a tenth in the 1/8 ) but picked up 20 mph in the back half. I know my short times from both converters should have put my truck into the high ten's but I also deal with "catalitic converter overload protection" mode due to the OEM pcm which dumps in fuel at wot and I have no controll over that. Not yet anyways. So between the 2 prototype converters, what could I tell the builder on how to improve them Jerry Williams.

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: hemidup] #1578045 02/12/14 03:52 PM 02/12/14 03:52 PM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 12,384 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY Dragula I Live Here
Dragula I Live Here Joined: May 2004 Posts: 12,384 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY	That's not from your convertor, somthing else is going on there...You first run was steller except for the back half and almost looked like it leaned out or boost fell off. A 6.86 is a 10.86, so somthing happened there...Do you have A/F meter to see what happened in the back half.... Me, I would go with the first convertor...9.5 all the way. I have gone 11.13 at 121mph in a 4000lb pump gas Charger, so your light on mph in the back half. Front half is awesome. That run in our charger netted 7.0 at 99mph in the 1/8 with a 1.5 somthing 60ft, so there is more in your combo by a bunch..Figure out where your mph went. Last edited by Dragula; 02/12/14 03:58 PM. '70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9) '66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage '71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: hemidup] #1578046 02/12/14 04:00 PM 02/12/14 04:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,266 Renton Washington T Triple Threat master
Triple Threat master T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,266 Renton Washington	I would give them all that information, and any data logs you might have that show RPM and MPH, this will tell them Efficiency. My guess given the above info is the 11" is so loose to get that much flash that is is inefficient on the back half. It might be turning RPM, but clearly its not pulling. Odd that shift recovery is so low given how poorly it acts up top. 9.5" sounds tighter, and more efficient. Thats why the truck struggles down low, but picks up acceptable MPH on the back half. I think if this converter can be made a little looser to help the truck get moving from 60-330, and not scrifice efficiency or MPH on the back half, you'll be in good shape. But i'm not a converter guy so -Dustin 67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi 68 Barracuda 340 F/SA

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: hemidup] #1578047 02/12/14 10:38 PM 02/12/14 10:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,986 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw... gregsdart master
gregsdart master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,986 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...	Those numbers are all over the map. No way to tell whats' up without a LOT of info. Something is going on big time to through the times around like that. Can you Data record boost and fuel curve? converter and engine rpm? 8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: hemidup] #1578048 02/12/14 10:55 PM 02/12/14 10:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,827 MI, usa dvw master
dvw master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,827 MI, usa	[QUOTE} I know my short times from both converters should have put my truck into the high ten's but I also deal with "catalitic converter overload protection" mode due to the OEM pcm which dumps in fuel at wot and I have no controll over that. Not yet anyways. You answered your own question right there. No way that 11" is that loose on the top. It's out of power, fuel? I could be wrong but I'll bet the 9.5 is to loose with the boosted combo. It's blowing right through it. The 11" with no fuel cut off and it'll fly. Thats my guess. Doug

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: hemidup] #1578049 02/13/14 12:08 AM 02/13/14 12:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	60' 1.48 330' 4.34 1/8 6.86 @ 97.6 1/4 11.05 @ 113.2 Happy with the short times, but questioned myself with the 1/4 mph since it only picked up 15 mph in the back half so I pulled it and installed the 9.5" to test. 9.5" 60' 1.49 330' 4.44 1/8 7.0 @ 98 1/4 11.03 @ 118 Looking at the short times the 11" was working better right up to the 1/8... my guess its shutting off fuel on the topend

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1578050 02/13/14 02:54 AM 02/13/14 02:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	Your #'s are close to mine. I am car # 201 and your 1/8 is very close to mine with the 11" in your truck. I figured you would mph way more then I do with your car supercharged but as was said you answered your own question of no top end. Your on par for 10.80's or 10.70's with no trouble if it mph's like it should which I would think should be 125 to 130 if running right on a supercharged eng. And pay no attention to the crappy RT. Ron Last edited by 383man; 02/13/14 02:55 AM.

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: 383man] #1578051 02/13/14 03:03 AM 02/13/14 03:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Quote: Your #'s are close to mine. I am car # 201 and your 1/8 is very close to mine with the 11" in your truck. I figured you would mph way more then I do with your car supercharged but as was said you answered your own question of no top end. Your on par for 10.80's or 10.70's with no trouble if it mph's like it should which I would think should be 125 to 130 if running right on a supercharged eng. And pay no attention to the crappy RT. Ron Even with his boost he is trying to move 5185 LBS so thats not close to yours

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1578052 02/13/14 03:33 AM 02/13/14 03:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	Quote: Quote: Your #'s are close to mine. I am car # 201 and your 1/8 is very close to mine with the 11" in your truck. I figured you would mph way more then I do with your car supercharged but as was said you answered your own question of no top end. Your on par for 10.80's or 10.70's with no trouble if it mph's like it should which I would think should be 125 to 130 if running right on a supercharged eng. And pay no attention to the crappy RT. Ron Even with his boost he is trying to move 5185 LBS so thats not close to yours Yea he is that just says he is making alot of power with that supercharged Hemi. Even at his weight if its running right I would think it should still mph more then my NA car at about the same et ? Ron

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: dvw] #1578053 02/13/14 10:54 AM 02/13/14 10:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN hemidup OP super stock
hemidup OP super stock Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN	Quote: [QUOTE} I know my short times from both converters should have put my truck into the high ten's but I also deal with "catalitic converter overload protection" mode due to the OEM pcm which dumps in fuel at wot and I have no controll over that. Not yet anyways. You answered your own question right there. No way that 11" is that loose on the top. It's out of power, fuel? I could be wrong but I'll bet the 9.5 is to loose with the boosted combo. It's blowing right through it. The 11" with no fuel cut off and it'll fly. Thats my guess. Doug That makes sense, but my a/f drops from 11.2 to 10.8 just before the 1000' mark and the truck lays down for a second or 2 then leans back up and starts pulling again which has me thinking the COP mode is actually adding fuel or maybe somethings up with the PCM commanded converter lock signal. I hate computer controlled vehicles. I thought OBDII was just another Star Wars character. Jerry Williams.

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: gregsdart] #1578054 02/13/14 11:04 AM 02/13/14 11:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN hemidup OP super stock
hemidup OP super stock Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN	Quote: Those numbers are all over the map. No way to tell whats' up without a LOT of info. Something is going on big time to through the times around like that. Can you Data record boost and fuel curve? converter and engine rpm? For the past few years they was no way to data log my truck during a run. I did use a ("as seen on TV") CRecorder (lol) to record knock retard, rpm and vehicle speed mph. This year I bought a Diablo Sport handhelp which I can data log PID's, whatever a PID is. As you can tell I'll need someone with a laptop and tuning knowledge to go to the track with me next time. Jerry Williams.

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: dvw] #1578055 02/13/14 11:25 AM 02/13/14 11:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN hemidup OP super stock
hemidup OP super stock Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN	Quote: [QUOTE} I know my short times from both converters should have put my truck into the high ten's but I also deal with "catalitic converter overload protection" mode due to the OEM pcm which dumps in fuel at wot and I have no controll over that. Not yet anyways. You answered your own question right there. No way that 11" is that loose on the top. It's out of power, fuel? I could be wrong but I'll bet the 9.5 is to loose with the boosted combo. It's blowing right through it. The 11" with no fuel cut off and it'll fly. Thats my guess. Doug I did send the converters back for adjustments. I recieved the 11" back first and put it in the truck. I only did a couple street hits, but it feels looser than it did. ??? Only the track will tell for sure. The 9.5" is also back and waiting in the wings. Here's a short vid that someone took of the truck with the 9.5" converter. Listen close and you'll hear how the engine pulses past the 1/8. The tach was jumping a few hundred rpm, but never pulled it below 5000 rpm. It didn't pulse like that with the 11" and the 11" pulled the motor down and is the one that also lay's down around the 1000'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYQdFxIx7AA Jerry Williams.

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: hemidup] #1578056 02/13/14 11:30 AM 02/13/14 11:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,969 Chandler, AZ Duner top fuel
Duner top fuel Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,969 Chandler, AZ	Are they both lockup convertors? And if so, is it trying to lockup at the 1,000' mark?

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: Duner] #1578057 02/13/14 12:03 PM 02/13/14 12:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN hemidup OP super stock
hemidup OP super stock Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN	Quote: Are they both lockup convertors? And if so, is it trying to lockup at the 1,000' mark? Yes, both are lockup converters and I have no clue at what rpm the TCM is commanding the lockup. Im on the 4th revision of the 9.5". The first time I ordered it at was a 4000 stall, but flashed at 5000 which freaked the PCM out and when driving on the street it couldn't make up its mind as which gear it should be in. The second revision it was tightened up to 3800 and flashed at 3800. Good but the trans temps never got over 114F so the converter builder wanted it back to put some heat into it since he told me too low of temps are just as bad as too high of temps. I never did track test either of those converters. Then the 3rd revision showed up which is the one posted in the video. Trans temps were at 160 give or take and the 4th revision is on the shelf. I think I'm also on the 4th or 5th revision of the 11". Jerry Williams.

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: 383man] #1578058 02/13/14 12:15 PM 02/13/14 12:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN hemidup OP super stock
hemidup OP super stock Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN	Yea he is that just says he is making alot of power with that supercharged Hemi. Even at his weight if its running right I would think it should still mph more then my NA car at about the same et ? Ron Ron, I expect to lack with my 1/4 mph. I do have a live front axle with additional drag and rotational mass to contend with since I race in 4WD. Plus the front cross section of my brick would be like adding a 4'x6' piece of plywood to the front of your car. Heck folding in my sideview mirrior's are good for about a mph. Jerry Williams.

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: hemidup] #1578059 02/13/14 12:24 PM 02/13/14 12:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,969 Chandler, AZ Duner top fuel
Duner top fuel Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,969 Chandler, AZ	My 9.5" Precision 4,000 stall convertor flashes to 4800 - but I'm blowing thru it the whole pass. I'm only dropping 700 rpm on each shift - so it shifts at 6500 and shift recovery is at 5800 - so it's not ever even coming close to 1:1. I was thinking about trying my 11" again, but not interested in all that labor at the moment. LOL

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: hemidup] #1578060 02/13/14 01:22 PM 02/13/14 01:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	That makes sense, but my a/f drops from 11.2 to 10.8 just before the 1000' mark and the truck lays down for a second or 2 then leans back up and starts pulling again which has me thinking the COP mode is actually adding fuel or maybe somethings up with the PCM commanded converter lock signal. I hate computer controlled vehicles. I thought OBDII was just another Star Wars character. If its going dog rich that will kill your power also... why is it going dog rich I cant say but its loosing its true signal for some reason EDIT Unless your going beyond 13% then the computer will think its out of range.. but if its fat it would usually try to drive it lean... so I'm thinking its sensing a lean condition and driving it fat Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 02/13/14 01:25 PM.

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1578061 02/13/14 07:27 PM 02/13/14 07:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	Have you ever dyno'd that beast ? Just wondering how much power it makes to move that much weight that fast. Ron

Re: TnT with converters have me puzzled? [Re: 383man] #1578062 02/14/14 09:00 PM 02/14/14 09:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN hemidup OP super stock
hemidup OP super stock Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 833 MN	Quote: Have you ever dyno'd that beast ? Just wondering how much power it makes to move that much weight that fast. Ron I which I could have when I started the engine build back in 05, but at the time there wasn't a dyno shop that had the electronic's to handle it and I couldn't afford the $2500 to buy it. It would have made the converter choice much easier with the proper hp/tq numbers instead of a guesstimate. Jerry Williams.

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