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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1566082
01/24/14 12:01 AM
01/24/14 12:01 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
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Quote:
Wade, glad to hear you have had some initial positive results with the solid end links. I almost pulled the trigger on a set of those last night but was not having much luck finding info on lengths and stud sizes on the different truck applications listed in this and the other thread. Questions: I assume you were running stock type links with poly bushings before? Are the solid end link studs the correct size for the LCA and sway bar mounts? I measured my poly end links to be right at 4" (LCA tab to sway bar,'74 Duster, Helwig bar and end links) From your pictures your bar appears to be fairly level but at 5.5" mine would be angled down quite a bit more, thoughts?
5.3" mount to mount
Center piece is about 1.7"
'studs' are smaller, but work ok. I was concerned the 'shoulder' would be smaller than the holes, but it worked out ok (just big enough).
Mine is a Hellwig custom bar. Big fan of Dave at Hellwig. My measurement was exactly 4" as well prior to swap (same hardware as you on end links).
I actually have spacers under the bushings that move the center down 3/4" or so. Probably helps with the angle. Also, my ride height is pretty low. Say, 1"-1.5" from metal to metal at bump stop location.
If there was an option that was 1-1.5" shorter it would be perfect. Worst case scenario, you buy a set and return them. Or cut it down and reweld the link after removing 1".
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1566084
01/30/14 02:23 PM
01/30/14 02:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Quote:
Quote:
Wade, glad to hear you have had some initial positive results with the solid end links. I almost pulled the trigger on a set of those last night but was not having much luck finding info on lengths and stud sizes on the different truck applications listed in this and the other thread. Questions: I assume you were running stock type links with poly bushings before? Are the solid end link studs the correct size for the LCA and sway bar mounts? I measured my poly end links to be right at 4" (LCA tab to sway bar,'74 Duster, Helwig bar and end links) From your pictures your bar appears to be fairly level but at 5.5" mine would be angled down quite a bit more, thoughts?
5.3" mount to mount
Center piece is about 1.7"
'studs' are smaller, but work ok. I was concerned the 'shoulder' would be smaller than the holes, but it worked out ok (just big enough).
Mine is a Hellwig custom bar. Big fan of Dave at Hellwig. My measurement was exactly 4" as well prior to swap (same hardware as you on end links).
I actually have spacers under the bushings that move the center down 3/4" or so. Probably helps with the angle. Also, my ride height is pretty low. Say, 1"-1.5" from metal to metal at bump stop location.
If there was an option that was 1-1.5" shorter it would be perfect. Worst case scenario, you buy a set and return them. Or cut it down and reweld the link after removing 1".
I have one coming that I will shorten and hope it doesn't have plastic internals.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1566085
01/30/14 04:58 PM
01/30/14 04:58 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
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Quote:
Looking at your pictures, you still have a fair amount of body roll. This allows a couple of different approaches to improve.
The most direct improvement would be to shorten the upper control arm to allow more dynamic camber to come in with the roll. This is tough to do with the OEM control arms but could be accomplished with a more adjustable unit like SPC.
Another approach would be to step up t-bar or s-bar rates to reduce roll. This would be effective as well, but will require an adjustment to all four corners to restore the desired roll couple you have now. You know the math to this, so it certainly is possible, its just a matter of ride preference.
Thanks for the input Tony!
I think I'm going to exhaust all my options with my current components before I start playing with adding roll resistance up front.
Gameplan:
-Check alignment and look at components (since I went off track in the last session - and my left front tire is squealing when it goes over tar on the road right now)
-Change front tires to a single compound tire - go to skidpad and check tire temps
-Adjust rear bar to stiffer setting - go to skidpad and check tire temps
-If car isn't oversteering with rear bar adjustment, add weight to rear of car until it does. Go to skidpad and check tire temps
-If tire temps aren't in an acceptable range, Adjust front suspension cam bolts for max camber with spacers (looking for 4*). Go to skidpad and check tire temps with car at a 'neutral' setting based on previous data.
If all else fails, then yes, time for some bigger TB's and a bigger rear sway bar to match.
The thing that gets me is the car flat out runs. It's already turned better lap times than I thought possible, and my driving is still a ways from where it needs to be.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1566086
01/30/14 05:08 PM
01/30/14 05:08 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
Consulier
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Joined: May 2005
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Couple things I learned at the tire test... 1) That little arrow doesn't mean a damn thing. Has some other meaning that I can't remember, but not what we all think it means. 2) I've been close, but need to run a couple more pounds than I have ever run because I let the tires roll too much. There is a separation line that you can just barely see in this photo, just above where that arrow would be pointing. But probably 1/4", or so, higher than the tip of the arrow... Hot Rod - Michelin Pic That's all the further the tire should roll. That's the separation line from where the contact rubber is bonded to the sidewall rubber. Past that and you are into less sticky material. Basically I have been running to about the arrow like you... forever. I've never taken temps, but by your temps, it looks like if you raise the pressure a couple pounds you will probably get the tire over where it should be.
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Consulier]
#1566087
01/30/14 05:16 PM
01/30/14 05:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
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Nebraska
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Plus the tires you're using are not THAT great spec wise from what ive noticed.
What T-bars do you have now Wade?
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1566089
01/30/14 07:58 PM
01/30/14 07:58 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
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Couple things I learned at the tire test...
1) That little arrow doesn't mean a damn thing. Has some other meaning that I can't remember, but not what we all think it means.
2) I've been close, but need to run a couple more pounds than I have ever run because I let the tires roll too much.
There is a separation line that you can just barely see in this photo, just above where that arrow would be pointing. But probably 1/4", or so, higher than the tip of the arrow... Hot Rod - Michelin Pic
That's all the further the tire should roll. That's the separation line from where the contact rubber is bonded to the sidewall rubber. Past that and you are into less sticky material.
Basically I have been running to about the arrow like you... forever. I've never taken temps, but by your temps, it looks like if you raise the pressure a couple pounds you will probably get the tire over where it should be.
I've got the fronts at 38 PSI, though I started at 32. I'll try higher and report back. Thanks for the tips.
Quote:
Plus the tires you're using are not THAT great spec wise from what ive noticed.
What T-bars do you have now Wade?
MP 1.04's
LOL - I think this is a great tire. It may not be the 'top dog' on the hot rod tire test, but it's won a number of other tire tests. It gives great feedback and performs well when wet.
That said, my next set of tires will be cheaper. The HPDE event manager recommended the HTR Z III, so I'll probably run through a set of those next.
I want more track time, so cheaper tires will help that happen.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1566090
01/30/14 08:39 PM
01/30/14 08:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
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Nebraska
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I saw a guy on LXForums with a 300 SRT8 wear out a pair of fronts in ONE track day. That and the pics of yours kinda tells me they at least dont like heavy cars.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1566092
01/31/14 01:37 AM
01/31/14 01:37 AM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
Tomswheels
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Escondido CA USA
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Oh no, no, no on the HTR Z, I don't care how cheap they are... The Michelin Pilot Super Sport is not the absolute best tire for what you are doing, but it's easily top 10 in the 140 and higher Treadwear class. It is an extremely consistent tire. The ONLY other tires you should consider are: Nitto NT-01, Toyo R888, Dunlop Z1/Z2, Falken RT615K, Hankook RS3, and BFG Rival. I would rank your SuperSports 7th or 8th behind those for outright performance/hot dry lap times. Slightly behind those tires and your SuperSports would be the Yokohama Ad08, Kumho Ecsta XS, and maybe the Bridgestone RE11. That's it! Don't consider any other 140 + up Treadwear tires for the type of tracking you are doing!  Oh and I agree completely that different tires need different pressures!
Last edited by Tomswheels; 01/31/14 01:46 AM.
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Tomswheels]
#1566094
01/31/14 10:21 AM
01/31/14 10:21 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
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Quote:
Oh no, no, no on the HTR Z, I don't care how cheap they are... The Michelin Pilot Super Sport is not the absolute best tire for what you are doing, but it's easily top 10 in the 140 and higher Treadwear class. It is an extremely consistent tire. The ONLY other tires you should consider are: Nitto NT-01, Toyo R888, Dunlop Z1/Z2, Falken RT615K, Hankook RS3, and BFG Rival. I would rank your SuperSports 7th or 8th behind those for outright performance/hot dry lap times. Slightly behind those tires and your SuperSports would be the Yokohama Ad08, Kumho Ecsta XS, and maybe the Bridgestone RE11. That's it! Don't consider any other 140 + up Treadwear tires for the type of tracking you are doing!
Oh and I agree completely that different tires need different pressures!
The price difference will 'buy' me two more track weekends. I say that's worth it. I guarantee I'll be faster on a lesser tire after the additional sixteen 20 minute sessions.
Not to mention, the 'test data' is pretty favorable for that tire. Not top 10, but probably top 20.
http://www.autocross.us/forums/topic/5084-hottest-autocross-tires-for-2011/
Unless of course somebody here is a tire rep and wants to sponsor me and send me free tires or sell me tires at cost... Any takers? Ha
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Trojmn]
#1566095
01/31/14 12:02 PM
01/31/14 12:02 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
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Quote:
Maybe i missed it, but I thought it was conspicuous that the pressures didn't vary from one brand to another in the Hot Rod tire test.
They did during testing, but you didn't get to see all the details. There was a little sidebar in the article (I think) about tire temps. We ran the Rival at varying temps and collected results to show what happens when you don't run enough, or run too much.
The tires really shouldn't run at drastically different pressures. A couple pounds here or there and that's it. They are all the same basic construction. Not like there was a bias ply in the group.
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1566096
01/31/14 12:03 PM
01/31/14 12:03 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
Consulier
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Quote:
I saw a guy on LXForums with a 300 SRT8 wear out a pair of fronts in ONE track day. That and the pics of yours kinda tells me they at least dont like heavy cars.
LX/LC will destroy a set of tires in a day because they don't have any camber. The cars needs a ton and unless you bring it, the tires will essentially self destruct.
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Re: Tire wear, Additional camber, and tire pressures
[Re: Trojmn]
#1566101
02/01/14 11:50 AM
02/01/14 11:50 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
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Quote:
im not sure if your tire wear issue is normal for a track day. is it? But, it is generally true that better tires take abuse better at autox. you may find better tires to be more heat tolerant and therefore could wear longer because they don't turn into erasers. at 135F an RS3 is just getting tacky, but can be slick <60F. the kumho XS is another higher heat tire.
have you been able to take temps at the end of your driving session?
I have not yet taken temps while on track. Maybe next time.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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