Re: U.S. Car Tool " Scam"
[Re: moparmojo]
#1525453
11/07/13 07:38 AM
11/07/13 07:38 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,774 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,774
Holland MI Ottawa
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Quote:
Wow this post is like a train wreck. I'm not taking sides or trying to invalidate anyones opinion but it surprises me how many are willing to throw this site sponsor/vendor under the bus merely because he fails to respond to the accusations on this post. What happened to until innocent until proven guilty? Sure do I think it is weird that usct has failed to reply, yes. But I also know that we don't have all the facts to make a sound judgement on the issue especially when many have had good experiences with them in the past. Usct has a history here to some degree. I also find it weird that we just now hear about this issue 8 years later from a new member and who during this post has encouraged us to go on other websites and youtube to bad mouth usct. The timing just seems unusual. I'm also confused about the email that was posted that appeared to be from John offering money back. Did the op take him up on the issue and he failed to follow thru or did the op demand an alternative resolution? Again unanswed. 8 years why the wait, why come on here now and talk about. Not like he saw a similar post and just had to share his story, but he created the post. I mean if it was me, after 8 years, I would have considered the money gone but even so I wouldn't sign up on mopar sites and just now start telling people to go on YouTube and kill someone's rating...for what, revenge? Again these events just seem out of the ordinary. Now I'm not saying I don't believe the op, however I just want to reserve judgement. There can be many reasons a company/person may not want to go on a site and respond to accusations. Is this the op's first posting like this? Has usct posted on other forums? If so was the response or process of discussing this issue in public a benefit? Who knows. Certainly it would be nice to hear the other side but I don't want to hang a guy wo the facts. Case in point my brother had a small business selling after market car parts. Things went well until one guy contacted him about a broker part. This was a beefy part and hard to break so my brother questions how it occurred. Buyer merely said during normal install or thereafter part broke . My brother did not sell parts with a warranty, however asked the guy to send the part back and he would send a replacement, however the buyer only wanted his money back. The was not an option, but the offer was out there. My brother heard back from the guy. But several months later he was made aware of a post on a website he sponsored where the buyer went on there and bad mouthed his part and parts. Which if that wasn't bad enough he completely fabricated the events of the situation which is my way of saying, he lied. Well this got the ball rolling and all these people were on the site slinging mud about my brother/company, so by the time he got on the to clear the air, the damage could not be fixed. He said so many people had came up with their own conclusions without the facts that when he did get on there they could only pepper him with bs questions as to not look bad themselves. Meaning they were already invested in what they perceived to be the outcome, therefore they tried to make it come true. There was no real winner and even though my brother had offed to replace the part free of charge people lost confidence in his business, that up until then had an unblemished reputation. Orders slowed, his suppliers wanted larger purchases so he just chose to fold up shop. Hard to stop a rolling snowball.
READ ALL POSTS FROM THE BEGINNING (keeping in mind some are deleted) THEN COMMENT.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Appology and facts
[Re: 2boltmain]
#1525454
11/07/13 08:35 AM
11/07/13 08:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 761 Raleigh, NC
John426
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 761
Raleigh, NC
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An Apology and the facts
I would like to start with an apology to those folks from the 66-67 Charger community that invested in the medallion project with me. I failed, the project failed and I do apologize to you all.
Facts In 2003 I began a project to produce the decklid medallion from the 66-67 Charger. At the time, there where no parts being reproduced for these cars and they had become very much in need of parts, primarily any trim parts. I have a long standing love of these cars, my Father brought one home when I was 6 years old, it became my Mom’s every day driver, we went on family vacations in the car and it is still in our family. I set out to manufacture the medallion not because it would be a huge commercial success, but because it was a much needed part for the 66-67 Charger community.
I did some early CAD work on the medallion, investigated various methods of manufacturing the parts and discussed this ideas with several potential tool / die companies. I ultimately found one that would work with me on the short run and had some innovative and creative ideas on manufacturing tooling.
I commissioned a CAD model be developed by them and they prepared a tooling cost estimate from that model. The tooling costs was much greater than I could afford and I turned to the 66-67 Charger community for the investment I needed to produce the tooling and short run of parts.
Today, there are many vehicles for this type of funding, crowd sourcing and kickstarter being two large examples, but in 2004/2005 it was pretty innovative. The thought was pretty simple; get a number of the folks that would benefit from the medallion to invest so we could produce the hard tooling and short production run of the parts. Each person would receive a medallion at below the cost of manufacture and we would sell enough to ultimately break even on the project.
I had some of the funds required to produce the tooling and needed to raise the rest, so I asked the owners of 66-67 chargers to participate and they did. I collected enough investors to place the order for the hard tooling. All the folks that gave me money for the project knew the parts did not exist, that we were going to use their money, along with mine, to produce the tooling and then the parts. Producing the tooling took longer than expected, the tool / die company I was working with was having hard times of their own (that had nothing to do with our project) but we did ultimately get the tooling delivered, with one large problem. They had miscalculated the size of one of the injection mold cavities and they could not produce the part in their machine.
I searched for an alternative that was within our very small budget and had no luck. I had the hard tooling for the metal part transferred to the foundry and they ran a small sample of parts to validate size and fit. Without the injection molding, we were stuck. This had taken a long time and at this point, I had stopped predicting a date of when the parts would be ready. It was becoming embarrassing to say “60 more days” and then that date would come and go. At one point, I decided to get the metal parts cast so I would have something for the folks that participated in this project with me. I placed an order with the foundry and received devastating news when I followed up with them after 2 weeks; they could not find our tooling. A lot of time had passed since the initial sample run and they could not locate the tooling.
At this point, I was facing the likely hood of having to produce another set of very expensive tooling and the company that had done it for me initially was closed down. I offered folks refunds and quite a few decided to have me return their initial money. Some decided to continue on the project with me, in the hopes we would be able to get this much needed part for the chargers produced. I continued to explore options for both the injection molding and the hard tooling. Time was passing and one day I called the foundry again and discussed the dilemma with the owner. He said he would look for the tooling and he called me back in a week or so with the news; he had found the tooling!
But I still had no way to produce the injection molded part and that ultimately was the demise of the project. I have the hard tooling, I have the method to cast the metal ring, I have the tooling for the injection molded part and no way to produce those parts without an enormous cost.
During this time, my small business had been floundering (as many did) and we were mostly out of money. I had invested all my savings into the business and its operations and we were surviving week to week. After working very hard and investing all of my money into the business, I had no choice but to close. I was saddened by the realization that we had failed, and even more so for the last few employee’s that had showed an enormous amount of dedication and worked extremely hard to keep us going up to then.
I took a full time job and used the income to subsidize the business. This worked for a short amount of time, but it became evident that that was not an effective long term strategy. I ultimately closed the business. There were bills that did not get paid when we ended that company and the Medallion project was officially a failure. Most of the investors had received refunds and very few lost their money. I was able to find new funding and partners to start a new company; manufacturing and selling products we designed. We had previously contracted out the manufacturing and decided we could be successful if it was all done in house. The chassis stiffening products have been well received and we have thousands of customers who are happy and satisfied.
The Charger Medallion project failed, the company and I failed, but there is no scam about it. The rumors of the amount of money I have seen are just wrong. Most of the investment money was returned by me, until I simply was out of money.
Those are the facts. I spent a lot of time and money on the Medallion project and it did not succeed. Some of my investors lost money and I again apologize to you few folks.
John Pasemann
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Re: Appology and facts
[Re: John426]
#1525455
11/07/13 08:49 AM
11/07/13 08:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337 the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337
the house on the left.
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Quote:
I was able to find new funding and partners to start a new company; manufacturing and selling products we designed. We had previously contracted out the manufacturing and decided we could be successful if it was all done in house. The chassis stiffening products have been well received and we have thousands of customers who are happy and satisfied.
wonderful. then you have the money to send the OP his deposit back.
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Re: Appology and facts
[Re: cogen80]
#1525456
11/07/13 08:54 AM
11/07/13 08:54 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,687 Boston, MA
crocha617
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,687
Boston, MA
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Quote:
Quote:
I was able to find new funding and partners to start a new company; manufacturing and selling products we designed. We had previously contracted out the manufacturing and decided we could be successful if it was all done in house. The chassis stiffening products have been well received and we have thousands of customers who are happy and satisfied.
wonderful. then you have the money to send the OP his deposit back.
Yes I agree. When are you sending his money back?
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Re: U.S. Car Tool " Scam"
[Re: HMcCandless_Jr]
#1525457
11/07/13 09:00 AM
11/07/13 09:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337 the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,337
the house on the left.
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Quote:
I spoke to John today and told him to take care of this, he told me he hasn't looked at the thread, but then when I said there were links to yahoo groups he yes "I know" I immediately responded with how do you know if you haven't seen it. He is very aware and chooses not to deal with it. He did tell me I could broker a deal to get Mitchel his money back under the condition that this post go away, are you serious, just remember you cant get in trouble for telling the truth even if its bad about someone.
i haven't looked at the thread but i know all the details about it and still choose not to do anything about it.
wow! what a scumbag. i'll give his money back as ling as the post goes away.
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Re: U.S. Car Tool " Scam"
[Re: cogen80]
#1525458
11/07/13 09:54 AM
11/07/13 09:54 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,126 Hunt Valley, Maryland
1fastrunner
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,126
Hunt Valley, Maryland
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I have no stake, but here's my take: Not everything in business succeeds, and not all items generate profits. I am in the retail business and we don't always make money on every items we sell. These are known as loss leaders. They help us drive our business and we can make money on other items. We have been very inovative and not every product survives. In business you win some and you lose some. John took a chance on developing an item people, investors, wanted. The key is what promises were made upon taking their money to invest. Was there a discaimer saying they could lose the investment, or just promising them a completed item at a reduced cost. If John is now successful with his new ventures, he should, in my opinion, make it right with his previous investors if no disclaimer was part of the aggreement. All the investors are part of the hobby, a hobby which John's business revolves around. People share good stories about business transactions, but share bad ones much more. John can do what he wants, but we as hobbiests will be watching. I feel the continued success of his new business venture will only benefit if he settles this. He is rolling the dice if he doesn't because people will be afraid to trust him and his products.
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Re: U.S. Car Tool " Scam"
[Re: cogen80]
#1525461
11/07/13 10:57 AM
11/07/13 10:57 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,589 My Garage / Museum
idrivevintage
Chrysler Plant
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Chrysler Plant
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,589
My Garage / Museum
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Quote:
Most of the investment money was returned by me, until I simply was out of money.
Quote:
I was able to find new funding and partners to start a new company; manufacturing and selling products we designed. We had previously contracted out the manufacturing and decided we could be successful if it was all done in house. The chassis stiffening products have been well received and we have thousands of customers who are happy and satisfied.
wonderful. then you have the money to send the OP his deposit back.
Some of the "investors" got refunded their "investment" but others are left hung out to dry and you're OK with that.
After all that was from the "old company" not the "new one" right
That's a hell of a thing to do. Sure it may be in some way legal but it doesn't make it right.
Pay the man what he is due!
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Re: U.S. Car Tool " Scam"
[Re: idrivevintage]
#1525462
11/07/13 11:14 AM
11/07/13 11:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,108 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,108
Benton, IL.
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It doesn't look like the long awaited response from USCT is going to help them with this.
Master, again and still
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Re: U.S. Car Tool " Scam"
[Re: DaveRS23]
#1525465
11/07/13 12:03 PM
11/07/13 12:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
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When a company fails (assuming that it is not a sole propritorship) , the investors, the vendors, and the customers all lose out. That's the way it is and the way it has to be. It is not a scam if it is not intentional. When an honest hard working mans business fails, and he has exausted all of the business' resources and closes the business, it's over. He is now free to gain new investors an re-start fresh. It would be neither fair or legally prudent to ask the new investors to make good on debts from a defunct company. It sucks for those who lose their investments, deposits, gift cards, etc. I'm sure it hurts worse for the owners such as John who give it all they have and lose everything. It needs to be this way, or we would not have the great benefits we gain from the risk takers. Look at Henry Ford, and most of the great men who built the auto industry. Many failures and fresh starts happened before success. If John started his new business with the same or similar name, that was a big mistake, and he should expect problems like this. If I was John I would personally (outside of the new company) come to agreement with the op. If I was the op, I would forget it and move on.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: U.S. Car Tool " Scam"
[Re: 2boltmain]
#1525466
11/07/13 12:08 PM
11/07/13 12:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,234 Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,234
Looking for a way out of Middl...
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I for one and glad John replied. I do understand from a business mentality why he MIGHT feel like he does not owe anyone refunds. Even Trump cuts his losses and declares bankruptcy on one Corp while the others he owns thrive well enough to pay the debts of the bankrupt one. While it is legal for Trump to do that, I personally do not feel that is the morally correct thing to do. From a legal standpoint there are lots of variables here. Statute of limitations, was this business a sole proprietorships or LLC, were they investors or buyers, etc. etc. etc. Only a lawyer/judge can sort those out so it will probably never happen over $275. Morally, ethically and possibly legally I think John should pay the man his $275. I hope he does because it will definitely have an effect on his and his company name if he does or does not. Thank You John for at least telling your side of the story.
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Re: Appology and facts
[Re: John426]
#1525467
11/07/13 12:11 PM
11/07/13 12:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 443 New Castle, Indiana
held1823
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 443
New Castle, Indiana
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Quote:
get a number of the folks that would benefit from the medallion to invest
Most of the investment money was returned by me
interesting twist, painting customers as investors.
customers spend money to receive a product. investors spend money to make more money. all of the invested money was spent on new product developement, yet investors got their money back, while customers got nothing.
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Re: U.S. Car Tool " Scam"
[Re: HMcCandless_Jr]
#1525468
11/07/13 12:29 PM
11/07/13 12:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 637 NM
74fish
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 637
NM
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Quote:
I spoke to John today and told him to take care of this, he told me he hasn't looked at the thread, but then when I said there were links to yahoo groups he yes "I know" I immediately responded with how do you know if you haven't seen it. He is very aware and chooses not to deal with it. He did tell me I could broker a deal to get Mitchel his money back under the condition that this post go away, are you serious, just remember you cant get in trouble for telling the truth even if its bad about someone.
I'm Glad John responded. A few points though. I still think he owes the customers. He should have kept them in the loop and been up front with them. the big thing for me is the fact that he'll return the money to the OP if this thread goes away. Give me something and I'll give you your money back. Just plain wrong .... if you can pay then pay ... but not because wou want something ... This guy has been hassling with this for 8 years and has hung in there with you until he had enough.
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Re: Appology and facts
[Re: held1823]
#1525469
11/07/13 12:33 PM
11/07/13 12:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,380 St. Charles, MO
wingman
Uncreative Title
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Uncreative Title
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,380
St. Charles, MO
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This morning on the way in to work I "invested" in two Egg McMuffins, but when I checked the bag I had only gotten one.
After waiting three hours, the girl at the window finally told me a big convoluted story about the history of McDonalds corporation, and about their challenges in procuring Canadian Bacon. She also told me "most" people get their money back in situations such as these, but she couldn't help me because her drawer was low on $1 bills and quarters.
I guess that's business.
1969 Dodge Coronet Super Bee 383 A4 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 440 FC7 (sold)
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Re: Appology and facts
[Re: wingman]
#1525470
11/07/13 12:39 PM
11/07/13 12:39 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,898 Milwaukee WI
R_Blaha
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,898
Milwaukee WI
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Sorry but customers are not investors, they expect a product for money traded. Either his money should be returned or a part given. Not a oh well. I guess my 69 bee isn't going down to us car and tool for the body in white if this is how they treat their customers!! $17k is a lot of cash and maybe I would never see my car again, cause I would be investing in the company!!!
LOOKING FOR THE 68 GTS IN THE AVATAR SPOT 1969 Dodge Superbee post coupe 383 1969 Dodge Superbee hardtop 472 hemi 1989 Mustang GT 1993 mustang lx 5.0 2004 screaming yellow cobra 2013 CVO Roadglide
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Re: Appology and facts
[Re: wingman]
#1525472
11/07/13 01:17 PM
11/07/13 01:17 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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The foundry lost the tooling??? That's right up there with the dog ate my home work. Here's a thought. Tell the foundry to find the tooling or replace it. Couldn't find anyone to do the injection molding for the medallion? Really??? I don't know how many units we are talking here but if you have the tooling there has to be HUNDREDS of small companies that do this kind of work. I've delivered presses to lots of them. You can find used presses at industrial auctions for the price of scrap almost but the cost of moving them isn't cheap. Here's a guy looking for work for a press. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plastic-Injection-Molding-Machine-Time-Available-/151158873474Kevin
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