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How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
#152410
11/17/08 03:20 PM
11/17/08 03:20 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 121
Rancho Cordova, Calif.
davidcwhitney
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Rancho Cordova, Calif.
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1978 440-7, bought used, no reliable history. Photos help tell the story: http://picasaweb.google.com/cat.etal/OilPanCamLifters#I've never been able to turn this engine by hand. Removed intake and found half the lifters frozen in their bores. Applied rust remover and waited. They came out. Debris around lifters looks like rust flakes from intake manifold and crossover (see photos). Oil pan has dried-up sludge puddle (see photo). Pickup tube screen is clear (photo). Oil pump and filter not present. Valve springs, seals okay, no rocker arm galling. Don't have old plugs to study. There is very little oil in this engine, helping to account for the rusted-in-bore lifters. If it didn't run out of oil while running, it was drained well and sat for God knows how long. Heads are still on. I suspect rusted piston rings and have applied brake fluid to one side and leveled that cylinder bank for even distribution. I hope to see brake fluid dripping out from all four cylinders soon, then do other side, bang on block and try to turn again. Questions: What is the telltale sign of overheating to look for before or during teardown? Any other suggestions for freeing what I believe is a mildly stuck engine? Thanks, David
1977 Executive Diplomat II
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: davidcwhitney]
#152411
11/17/08 03:23 PM
11/17/08 03:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,968
Hampton, Ga.
70dart360
Green Meister
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Green Meister
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Posts: 10,968
Hampton, Ga.
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Sounds like it wasnt maintained right with the sludge and all. If the lifters are rusted in the bores and it wont spin over, I think whether it ran hot or not is the least of your worries.
70 Dart Swinger
72 D-100 440 shortbed
76 Pinto, 68k 21mpg!
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: 70dart360]
#152412
11/17/08 03:59 PM
11/17/08 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Sounds like it wasnt maintained right with the sludge and all. If the lifters are rusted in the bores and it wont spin over, I think whether it ran hot or not is the least of your worries.
EXACTLY , it needs to be rebuilt
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: davidcwhitney]
#152414
11/17/08 05:31 PM
11/17/08 05:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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I would strip it(without doing any damage) bake it clean then see what what it looks like.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: screamindriver]
#152415
11/17/08 06:23 PM
11/17/08 06:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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I Win
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Quote:
Quote:
Any other suggestions for freeing what I believe is a mildly stuck engine?
Thanks,
David
Here's an option that looks to be a good solution...Have'nt tried it yet but I will if need be...  the old molasses trick..
That's messy , I tried it on some small stuff , I didn't see the part about heating the mixture so it didn't work that well , definitely not something to dry when it's HOT 
Have you pulled the heads ? If the bores are heavily rusted it may not be worth the effort. I have a 400 block that I got unstuck , it needs 3 sleeves because of rust pitting , when I removed the heads my feet got wet .
I set the engine so one bank was pointing up with the heads off , filled the cylinders with PB blaster , a week each bank , then i put a long bar on the crank bolt and rapped the top of as many pistons as i could reach wit ha 2 lb brass hammer , and rocked the crank back and forth , took about an hour , spraying in more PB , finally got it to rotate over , in total the block needs 5 sleeves between pitting and core shift .
It makes a lovely door stop at the moment .
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: 2cudabuck]
#152418
11/17/08 08:20 PM
11/17/08 08:20 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 121
Rancho Cordova, Calif.
davidcwhitney
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Thanks for all the encouragement. I'm not keeping this engine anyway, so it's not the end of the world if it stays frozen. Just don't want to sell it at a frozen engine price if I don't have to.
I'll pull the heads and look at the cylinder walls, let you know what I see.
Meanwhile, I don't see any evidence of excess heat at the exhaust ports. Manifolds are not present, so can't look for cracks or discoloration there.
Obviously there would be valve train problems if it ran out of oil running, but the pushrods are all straight. There are no shavings or metal pieces in the oil pan. Would the chambers/cylinders/valve seats tell me anything about overheating?
I'm still under the impression this is an okay engine that got a little water inside it while dry.
Thanks,
David
1977 Executive Diplomat II
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: topside]
#152420
11/18/08 09:36 PM
11/18/08 09:36 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 121
Rancho Cordova, Calif.
davidcwhitney
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Posts: 121
Rancho Cordova, Calif.
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I pulled the odd side head and found what I expected -- #3 cylinder rusted to the wall and maybe #3 valves rusted in heads. See photos. http://picasaweb.google.com/cat.etal/78440OddSideHead#Most of it looks pretty good if you can see past the carbon deposits. All the cylinders but #3 drained brake fluid past the rings. I'm ready to try a longer soak and see how it goes. I've heard brake fluid, diesel oil, Marvel Mystery Oil, trans fluid and vinegar. Any other rust eating suggestions? Thanks, David
1977 Executive Diplomat II
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: davidcwhitney]
#152421
11/18/08 09:40 PM
11/18/08 09:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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the fluid you are putting in is probably running around the ring gaps , put a bar on it and  the piston tops
Last edited by JohnRR; 11/18/08 10:09 PM.
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: JohnRR]
#152422
11/18/08 10:07 PM
11/18/08 10:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,886
US of A
A38s!
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master
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US of A
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What does the pad read? Looks n51 to me.
Last edited by Chief-Kikerdown; 11/18/08 10:08 PM.
WANTED: Your 71-78 Late B-body sedan parts! Police or Civilian.
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: A38s!]
#152423
11/19/08 12:50 PM
11/19/08 12:50 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 121
Rancho Cordova, Calif.
davidcwhitney
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Pad reads:
T440 E
5 11 2 [Maltese cross] X
I'm not sure about N51 -- I think that was an earlier year option. I have read these truck 440 blocks have "figure 8" passages for better cooling.
Happy motoring,
David
1977 Executive Diplomat II
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: davidcwhitney]
#152424
11/19/08 01:21 PM
11/19/08 01:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Pad reads:
T440 E
5 11 2 [Maltese cross] X
I'm not sure about N51 -- I think that was an earlier year option. I have read these truck 440 blocks have "figure 8" passages for better cooling.
Happy motoring,
David
there should be a number before the T , it's a late model cast crank motor , worth maybe 200 bucks
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: JohnRR]
#152425
11/19/08 08:20 PM
11/19/08 08:20 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 121
Rancho Cordova, Calif.
davidcwhitney
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Yes, I know it's a late model cast crank motor. Surprise, surprise! Pistons have "30" stamped on them, so it's been rebuilt at least once. #2 cylinder also has rust on the outer wall. It looks like #2 and #3 had standing water in them for a time, but not the end of the world. I'm soaking now and will bang on the pistons tomorrow to see if I can coax the motor to turn. Then I might get 250 for it.  Overheating and running out of oil have been scratched off the list of problems. Thanks for the help and happy motoring, David
1977 Executive Diplomat II
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: Kirk_Ingram]
#152427
11/20/08 08:56 AM
11/20/08 08:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Then I might get 250 for it.
Overheating and running out of oil have been scratched off the list of problems.
Oooo, Ooo, can I be first on the list to buy it???
I've always wanted a .030" over 440 that has been mediacally diagnosed over the internet to never have overheated, or been run out of oil. And stuck piston rings are a bonus!!
Please Please! 
like it having RUSTY bores and already bored .030 is a good thing 
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Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?
[Re: A38s!]
#152429
11/20/08 01:01 PM
11/20/08 01:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Quote:
Pad reads:
T440 E
5 11 2 [Maltese cross] X
I'm not sure about N51 -- I think that was an earlier year option. I have read these truck 440 blocks have "figure 8" passages for better cooling.
Happy motoring,
David
You could get n51 through 78. But alas, not a HP. I'd say  if you can get $250. Sounds like alot of putzing around.
Happy Motoring to you!
I'm still trying to figure out where someone saw N51 STAMPED on this engine 
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I have salvaged engines that looked MUCH worse in the galley.
