4 Speed Breakage
#1473159
07/24/13 02:54 AM
07/24/13 02:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445 Missouri
68KillerBee
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We are getting a new garage and we were cleaning the old one out so we can tear it down. Power goes out in our neighborhood, so we hop in the GTX too cruise around a bit. Drove around town for a bit and heading home. A mile from our house the car starts grinding and sparks flying everywhere. I thought the driveshaft had just fallen off from the u joint at the rear. Well Dad finally gets it to stop and we go out to assess what happened. First thing we saw radiator was leaking and the transmission looked loose. Driveshaft angle was off, so we pulled it off and towed the car home. Get home, lights go on just as we finish pushing the car in the shed. I hop under since I can finally see and find this: The completely rebuilt motor was just finished up last year, transmission was professionally rebuilt, new clutch, pressure plate, bellhousing, driveshaft balanced, etc. I mean where do you even start on fixing this? The motor let loose and came forward, so the fan took out the radiator in the center, who knows what could be wrong in the motor with the input shaft on the transmission completely ripping off, and hopefully it didn't mess up the rearend. The bellhousing ripped in half along with the front shaft! 18 spline transmission too. So frustrated as we have been messing with this car for two years and now this. The 440 is not pumping out tons of HP either, it is probably a mid to high 13 second car if I were to compare it to my (slow) 14.5 quarter I get in my super bee.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473160
07/24/13 03:08 AM
07/24/13 03:08 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166 CT
GTX MATT
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CT
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That sucks man, it always feels like it never ends, but that is just absurdly unlucky. I have no idea what the initial problem was, but I'm thinking an initial flywheel/crankshaft issue caused this. Good luck
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1473161
07/24/13 03:22 AM
07/24/13 03:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445 Missouri
68KillerBee
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Quote:
That sucks man, it always feels like it never ends, but that is just absurdly unlucky.
I have no idea what the initial problem was, but I'm thinking an initial flywheel/crankshaft issue caused this.
Good luck
This is my dad's first car and it has sat multiple times due to it being to frustrating and dad steps away from it for a while. We redid my car when I was in high school instead of working on his. Him and I have barely even got to cruise around together because of the problems we run into with his car. Worst part is that I know the car is just going to sit for quite a while cause my dad is just done with it. Putting all the time and money into rebuilding everything and now that's what happens. rant/venting over
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1473162
07/24/13 05:24 AM
07/24/13 05:24 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,301 colorado
a12superbee
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Wooooow, that is freaking impressive. Plenty-o-$$$-carnage. Sorry it's going to take a lot out of your dad's passion for the car. I can think of a few ways to tear up something like that. Bad mounts. Incorrect drive shaft angle, maybe length. Cracked bell that escaped detection. Missing/loose bolts. Lot's of ways to get there. Were you banging on it? Hit any big bumps? All fun and games until you break something and the wallet needs to come back out.
I can't afford this.
mark
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: a12superbee]
#1473163
07/24/13 05:41 AM
07/24/13 05:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445 Missouri
68KillerBee
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Quote:
Wooooow, that is freaking impressive. Plenty-o-$$$-carnage. Sorry it's going to take a lot out of your dad's passion for the car.
I can think of a few ways to tear up something like that. Bad mounts. Incorrect drive shaft angle, maybe length. Cracked bell that escaped detection. Missing/loose bolts.
Lot's of ways to get there.
Were you banging on it? Hit any big bumps?
All fun and games until you break something and the wallet needs to come back out.
So we rebuilt the motor last year and had a new clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, throwout (sp?) bearing put in. But we still had a slight vibration, so that was the only thing that hadn't been replaced. Took his old one out and had it rebuilt. Transmission guy said all seemed okay as far as possible vibrations coming from that, but went ahead and replaced a few things in there that had wear. Tighten everything back up and the car didn't want to go in any gear. Got the clutch rod adjusted correctly and this was the second time taking it out on the road. First time was a local cruise, 5 mph up and down a street blocked off for the cruise and a ten minute ride on the highway there and back. Then today took it out and got on it twice. Heading home going 45 mph and then that. I thought pinion angle as others talk about on here, but the car has been set up this way since the 80's. correctly aligned the bellhousing studs, so that takes out that possibility. Also while chasing the vibration problem my dads bellhousing had previously broke and it was welded back together. Told transmission guy about that and he sent us a new one $$$. Also motor mounts are new and not the cheap ones and the transmission mount was new (now toasted). I believe rebuild on this was over 1k and less than 50 miles (at most) later it eats itself. Went back and found a big chunk of the bellhousing, clutch rod, boot, and the fork on the road. I'm surprised at how my dad kept his cool through it all. Best case scenario is it needs a new bellhousing, transmission, and the radiator fixed. Usually when I'm I'll go take a cruise in my bee or challenger, well definitely not doing that tonight!! Trying to do a few things to my car before Nationals, but this has killed it for me too. I'd rather just work on getting his car going again that weekend.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473164
07/24/13 08:35 AM
07/24/13 08:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,083 Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,083
Niles , Ohio
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I had a GM truck at work that just had a new C&PP installed.It went maybe 500 miles.It wasnt beat on.It tore up the tranny,bell,starter,slave.and the clutch.Never did figure out what went bad.I fixed it all and it was still going strong after 3 years.That looks like the bell let loose then the carnage followed.Only time Ive seen that much damage the clutch exploded.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1473168
07/24/13 10:50 AM
07/24/13 10:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092 A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
the vibration could have been anything, it should have been found.
I'll ask a dumb question, was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing? Also what was the source of that bellhousing, used replacement part or brand new? That doesn't look like a factory Chrysler bellhousing?
As far as the pinion angle, you say it's been like that since the 80's, but that doesn't mean it's correct, what were the rear springs ? Was the rear and original car rear or a modified truck rear?
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473169
07/24/13 10:55 AM
07/24/13 10:55 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157 Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Wow, that really blows dude!, last time I seen something like that happen was when a former associate forgot to install the input shaft bearing in the front retainer, and the whole front of the input shaft grenaded like that! It sucks when stuff like this happens, I have 2 approaches to issues like this, either tackle it right away to get over it and the fustration, or push it in the garage, let the fustration cool off, then tackle it when your "heart" is in it, to repair it....
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473171
07/24/13 11:11 AM
07/24/13 11:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,005 s. e. pa.
calrobb2000
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,005
s. e. pa.
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hi , with that kind of damage there shoud have been oi /trany fluid every where ? did not see it in the pic , you did have fluid in it ???? also is that a internal balanced engine or a cast crank external needing a matching flywheel ?
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: JohnRR]
#1473172
07/24/13 11:14 AM
07/24/13 11:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445 Missouri
68KillerBee
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Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
the vibration could have been anything , it should have been found .
I'll ask a dumb question , was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing ? Also what was the source of that bellhousing , used replacement part or brand new ?
as far as the pinion angle , you say it's been like that since the 80's , but that doesn't mean it's correct , what were the rear springs ? Was the rear and original car rear or a modified truck rear ?
Indexed, does that equal the dowel pin deal? If so, that was done. I believe it had one of the plastic inspection covers on it. It is the correct Dana for the car with SS leaf springs still on it. Well considering we got an entirely different block, different balancer, literally everything was different and it was still present. Nobody could figure out what it was from. New motor, unhook all the power accessories and it was still there. New motor mounts, new front end, new transmission mount, driveshaft balanced, new u joints all the way around, different exhaust (in case it was hitting) etc etc. Cut the input shaft in case that was the problem and that did nothing. Then when we got the transmission rebuild that was all new input shaft and what not. I would have to find a receipt to see if the bellhousing was used or brand new. The "new" bellhousing was used before we got the transmission rebuilt with no problem. One of us would torque down bolts and other would always check, we were that paranoid (cautious?). Look at previous threads I had on this problem and no solutions worked out. Thats about all I can think that we have done with the car. O and lots of cursing at it over the past 3-5 years . Something I was surprised I did not even hear last night when this happened lol.
We've thought of just about everything, even possibility that the floor pans weren't welded in good enough and that's how were feeling it
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: JohnRR]
#1473173
07/24/13 11:18 AM
07/24/13 11:18 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 586 UP
finn
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 586
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Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
I can see that you have never been in an engine machining / assembly plant.
The only thing attached to an engine block for machining is the bearing caps or main bearing bedplate (if equipped).
A bellhousing is machined separately, most likely in a separate plant, or at a minimum in a separate area of the plant, and taken off a palate or feeder and randomly selected to be bolted to the back of an engine. This is a relatively non-critical joint as far as geometry goes.
Looks like an assembly error to me. Probably left the bolts loose.
Accidents happen, especially on long term off again / on again projects.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#1473174
07/24/13 11:19 AM
07/24/13 11:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092 A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
the vibration could have been anything , it should have been found .
I'll ask a dumb question , was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing ? Also what was the source of that bellhousing , used replacement part or brand new ?
as far as the pinion angle , you say it's been like that since the 80's , but that doesn't mean it's correct , what were the rear springs ? Was the rear and original car rear or a modified truck rear ?
Indexed, does that equal the dowel pin deal? If so, that was done. I believe it had one of the plastic inspection covers on it. It is the correct Dana for the car with SS leaf springs still on it. Well considering we got an entirely different block, different balancer, literally everything was different and it was still present. Nobody could figure out what it was from. New motor, unhook all the power accessories and it was still there. New motor mounts, new front end, new transmission mount, driveshaft balanced, new u joints all the way around, different exhaust (in case it was hitting) etc etc. Cut the input shaft in case that was the problem and that did nothing. Then when we got the transmission rebuild that was all new input shaft and what not. I would have to find a receipt to see if the bellhousing was used or brand new. The "new" bellhousing was used before we got the transmission rebuilt with no problem. One of us would torque down bolts and other would always check, we were that paranoid (cautious?). Look at previous threads I had on this problem and no solutions worked out. Thats about all I can think that we have done with the car. O and lots of cursing at it over the past 3-5 years . Something I was surprised I did not even hear last night when this happened lol.
We've thought of just about everything, even possibility that the floor pans weren't welded in good enough and that's how were feeling it
Cast crank or forged , internal or external balance ? Was the flywheel checked for neutral if it's a neutral as i see it is an OLD original flywheel. SS springs , was the pinion angle corrected when they were originally installed as they do change the pinion angle.
Yes indexing is the offset dowel deal. Do you have a picture of that bellhousing when it was in one piece ?
Link to old thread on this issue ?
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: calrobb2000]
#1473175
07/24/13 11:27 AM
07/24/13 11:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445 Missouri
68KillerBee
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Quote:
hi ,
with that kind of damage there shoud have been oi /trany fluid every where ?
did not see it in the pic , you did have fluid in it ????
also is that a internal balanced engine or a cast crank external needing a matching flywheel ?
This happened ~a mile up the road. Someone gave me a ride to our house and I grabbed the truck to pull it home. Realized the driveshaft was not going to cooperate so went back home and got tools. Basically the pictures are from 2.5 hours after this happened and in our shed. It was full of fluid, you can follow our trail home bc of all the fluid. That and a bunch of antifreeze. I don't remember the motor specs, but this all was looked at before the rebuild since the vibration was the reason for a rebuild. Once again rebuild = New block, heads were reworked for the old motor bc someone said that could be the vibration, new crank, cam, everything. I work overnights so I'm heading to bed now. Don't really know what my dad is gonna do with the car now. I wanted to start taking it out last night, but kept as is to document better and see what dad thinks. Thanks for all the replies though and constructive criticism. I will show dad this to verify what I'm saying is correct or answer questions I can't.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: finn]
#1473176
07/24/13 11:30 AM
07/24/13 11:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,462 Morristown Tn.
71birdJ68
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,462
Morristown Tn.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
I can see that you have never been in an engine machining / assembly plant.
The only thing attached to an engine block for machining is the bearing caps or main bearing bedplate (if equipped).
A bellhousing is machined separately, most likely in a separate plant, or at a minimum in a separate area of the plant, and taken off a palate or feeder and randomly selected to be bolted to the back of an engine. This is a relatively non-critical joint as far as geometry goes.
Looks like an assembly error to me. Probably left the bolts loose.
Accidents happen, especially on long term off again / on again projects.
Did that hold true for the 1900s, before cnc's,computers,ect.? Why would the book say if the housings were swapped from different blocks that they need indexed. And if its not critical why are we only allowed .004 runout?
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: JohnRR]
#1473177
07/24/13 11:34 AM
07/24/13 11:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 460 Oklahoma
VoodooCLD
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 460
Oklahoma
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
After sleeping on this, I bet that bellhousing needed to be indexed even though it was stock, and was just a bit too far off
This , new bellhousing , it is not indexed to the engine . Original bellhousing are attached to the engine block when it is being machined and mated to it .
the vibration could have been anything , it should have been found .
I'll ask a dumb question , was there a cover on the bottom of that bellhousing ? Also what was the source of that bellhousing , used replacement part or brand new ?
as far as the pinion angle , you say it's been like that since the 80's , but that doesn't mean it's correct , what were the rear springs ? Was the rear and original car rear or a modified truck rear ?
Indexed, does that equal the dowel pin deal? If so, that was done. I believe it had one of the plastic inspection covers on it. It is the correct Dana for the car with SS leaf springs still on it. Well considering we got an entirely different block, different balancer, literally everything was different and it was still present. Nobody could figure out what it was from. New motor, unhook all the power accessories and it was still there. New motor mounts, new front end, new transmission mount, driveshaft balanced, new u joints all the way around, different exhaust (in case it was hitting) etc etc. Cut the input shaft in case that was the problem and that did nothing. Then when we got the transmission rebuild that was all new input shaft and what not. I would have to find a receipt to see if the bellhousing was used or brand new. The "new" bellhousing was used before we got the transmission rebuilt with no problem. One of us would torque down bolts and other would always check, we were that paranoid (cautious?). Look at previous threads I had on this problem and no solutions worked out. Thats about all I can think that we have done with the car. O and lots of cursing at it over the past 3-5 years . Something I was surprised I did not even hear last night when this happened lol.
We've thought of just about everything, even possibility that the floor pans weren't welded in good enough and that's how were feeling it
Cast crank or forged , internal or external balance ? Was the flywheel checked for neutral if it's a neutral as i see it is an OLD original flywheel. SS springs , was the pinion angle corrected when they were originally installed as they do change the pinion angle.
Yes indexing is the offset dowel deal. Do you have a picture of that bellhousing when it was in one piece ?
Link to old thread on this issue ?
This is what i was going to ask. It seems to me that you've had vibration issues all along. If the crankshaft if set up neutral balance and you put a flywheel with a weight on it, your gonna havea bad time. Same goes if the engine is externally balanced, and you have a a flywheel with no weight on it.
The post about forgetting the input shaft bushing that goes into the crank is a good possibility as well. Look in the end of the crank and see if there is a bronze bushing in there, or on the end of the transmission input shaft.
Short of those 2 things, i can't really think of anything else that would have caused that much carnage unless it was loose bolts.
Good luck. I'd jump right in and get it fixed. Use that anger as motivation to fix it right.
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Re: 4 Speed Breakage
[Re: JohnRR]
#1473178
07/24/13 11:35 AM
07/24/13 11:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445 Missouri
68KillerBee
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Quote:
Cast crank or forged , internal or external balance ? Was the flywheel checked for neutral if it's a neutral as i see it is an OLD original flywheel. SS springs , was the pinion angle corrected when they were originally installed as they do change the pinion angle.
Yes indexing is the offset dowel deal. Do you have a picture of that bellhousing when it was in one piece ?
Link to old thread on this issue ?
Lot's of answers found in the old thread. You actually helped out also. Here is the one I could find. Seems this issue has been going on longer than I remembered.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=5264280
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