Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: Filex]
#1467543
07/14/13 10:33 AM
07/14/13 10:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
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Filex,
Congratulations on your project. For your supercharged 440 I would suggest this as a 'general' outline for a very streetable 600 hp supercharged 440.
A forged (approx 1971 or earlier) 440 crankshaft Aftermarket forged H or I beam connecting rods Forged 'D' dish pistons which allow for both quench and between 8.5 and 8.8:1 static compression ratio. Pistons are specifically available for supercharged engines and typically feature the ring pack being set slightly lower from the combustion surface of the piston, this is recommended but not required. Follow the piston mfg recommendation for ring type, gap and finish hone on the cylinder bores. A well-machined block (sonic checked, square decked, line honed with ARP main studs, finished honing with 'deck' plates with enlarged oil passages as outlined in the mopar performance Engine manual). An aluminum cylinder head such as the Edelbrock performer RPM (closed chamber approx 84cc as advertised) with mild porting and combustion chamber polishing would be helpful. Supercharged engines for long term durability tend to benefit from a wider valve seat margin surface than you might want on a fully ported set of heads, however some judicious contouring of the bowl area and guide contouring is still helpful). Good cooling is essential on a supercharged engine, a supplemental oil cooler and larger transmission coolers are good investments for dissipating as much heat as is practical. For a cam with about 8-10psi of boost I would run a hydraulic flat tappet with approximately 242 degrees @.050 and .540 lift on the intake and approx 250 degrees @ .050 on the exhaust on 112 lobe seperation angle and installed +4 at 108 intake centerline. This will give you a very broad powerband and will idle deceptively smooth at 800-850rpm. I would run a custom calibrated single 4 barrel carb like a pro-systems 950hp 4150 series carb with a 16" x 4" high air cleaner. Run a large capacity (min 110gph and 140 hog would be better) electric fuel pump. A ported high volume oil pump with a minimum 7 quart wet sump system will be fine, the milodon low profile is best for ground clearance (since the 6-71 adds a lot of weight to the front of the car) For a distributor, I've had very good success running a custom calibrated unit with approx 14-16 degrees of initial advance and a comparatively slow mechanical curve of 20 degrees all in by 3000 rpm, unlike a normally aspirated car you don't want a quick full advance for part throttle roll-on (normal driving) power. Headers should be 2" primaries with 3 1/2" collectors going to a low restriction dual 3" system. A "tight" 10" Turbo-action (nominal stall approx 3000, they sell "loose-medium and tight" stalls) would work very well with 3.55 gears, behind the blown 440 it would Footbraked stall approx 3800 rpm but would still fell very good at highway cruising speeds and not run hot. A blower will increase the stall and flash of any converter compared to a normally aspirated motor, so a big mistake people make is to go too loose and they simply can't put the power to the ground.
That's IMO a solid base to consider for a very streetable 6-71 blown 440,(I've built several)... hope it helps!
Last edited by Streetwize; 07/14/13 02:48 PM.
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: RodStRace]
#1467545
07/14/13 02:00 PM
07/14/13 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
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Rod,
I've had some success running a vaccumm advance using the crane Adjustable diaphagm dialing it pretty much all the way out, but that was on a 4 speed car.
a blower drives about like a n/A car until you nail it (motor can't make boost until you give it enough air) but once you do you don't need a ton of advance because the cylinder pressure is much higher at low rpm than you can possibly achieve N/A. Drivability is great once you get it sorted though....especially on misty mornings with a little coolness in the air.
I would definately consider a methanol injector like MrYuck runs on his sixpack 440, I see no downside to that at all.
Trans line pressure, never gave that much thought because I always ran MVB's or 4 speeds.
I like the Dyers supercharger set-ups, manifolds need a little port match and clean-up but nothing special. I ran a 383 with a V6-71 and only the 2" belt drive back in the early 80's that worked really well, the standard 3" drives on the 6-71 and 8-71's always seemed to do well, fatter belts/drives can play havoc with radiators and cooling in terms of fitment. A lot of people used to run their belt tensions too tight which adds a lot of strain to the bearings and crank snouts. Too tight will cause the belts to want to walk, and it's not only tension it's parallelness that also comes into play.
I used to put a few drops of Pro-blend in the gear oil, it seemed to cut the friction down a tad because the whine changed pitch slightly ( but noticably)
Like I said HEAT is the one thing people probably don't realize about blowers, once you run them hard you can actually start losing a bit of power because that air builds up a lot of heat. 600 hp also makes a lot more HEAT than 400 hp, how you wick it away is important if you want it to live, that's in part why I like a bit of a wider valve seat on an endurance street blower motor, it gives just a bit more area for heat transfer (since any goven valve is closed well more than 1/2 the time) from the exhaust valve back into the head/cooling system.
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: Streetwize]
#1467546
07/14/13 02:15 PM
07/14/13 02:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,026 Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,026
Trumbull,CT.
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Quote:
Felix,
Congratulations on your project. For your supercharged 440 I would suggest this as a 'general' outline for a very streetable 600 hp supercharged 440.
A forged (approx 1971 or earlier) 440 crankshaft Aftermarket forged H or I beam connecting rods Forged 'D' dish pistons which allow for both quench and between 8.5 and 8.8:1 static compression ratio. Pistons are specifically available for supercharged engines and typically feature the ring pack being set slightly lower from the combustion surface of the piston, this is recommended but not required. Follow the piston mfg recommendation for ring type, gap and finish hone on the cylinder bores. A well-machined block (sonic checked, square decked, line honed with ARP main studs, finished honing with 'deck' plates with enlarged oil passages as outlined in the mopar performance Engine manual). An aluminum cylinder head such as the Edelbrock performer RPM (closed chamber approx 84cc as advertised) with mild porting and combustion chamber polishing would be helpful. Supercharged engines for long term durability tend to benefit from a wider valve seat margin surface than you might want on a fully ported set of heads, however some judicious contouring of the bowl area and guide contouring is still helpful). Good cooling is essential on a supercharged engine, a supplemental oil cooler and larger transmission coolers are good investments for dissipating as much heat as is practical. For a cam with about 8-10psi of boost I would run a hydraulic flat tappet with approximately 242 degrees @.050 and .540 lift on the intake and approx 250 degrees @ .050 on the exhaust on 112 lobe seperation angle and installed +4 at 108 intake centerline. This will give you a very broad powerband and will idle deceptively smooth at 800-850rpm. I would run a custom calibrated single 4 barrel carb like a pro-systems 950hp 4150 series carb with a 16" x 4" high air cleaner. Run a large capacity (min 110gph and 140 hog would be better) electric fuel pump. A ported high volume oil pump with a minimum 7 quart wet sump system will be fine, the milodon low profile is best for ground clearance (since the 6-71 adds a lot of weight to the front of the car) For a distributor, I've had very good success running a custom calibrated unit with approx 14-16 degrees of initial advance and a comparatively slow mechanical curve of 20 degrees all in by 3000 rpm, unlike a normally aspirated car you don't want a quick full advance for part throttle roll-on (normal driving) power. Headers should be 2" primaries with 3 1/2" collectors going to a low restriction dual 3" system. A "tight" 10" Turbo-action (nominal stall approx 3000, they sell "loose-medium and tight" stalls) would work very well with 3.55 gears, behind the blown 440 it would Footbraked stall approx 3800 rpm but would still fell very good at highway cruising speeds and not run hot. A blower will increase the stall and flash of any converter compared to a normally aspirated motor, so a big mistake people make is to go too loose and they simply can't put the power to the ground.
That's IMO a solid base to consider for a very streetable 6-71 blown 440,(I've built several)... hope it helps!
Reliable, ultra low maintenance, inexpensive and powerful.
I'd use a pair of "blower" carbs, but excellent advice overall.
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: RodStRace]
#1467547
07/14/13 02:25 PM
07/14/13 02:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13 Loire Atlantique
Filex
OP
member
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
Loire Atlantique
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Thanks all for your answers ! It's a real pleasure to see that people can help me ! @Mr. Yuck : I know I can obtain 500HP without supercharger but I really want it, I looooove the beauty of the roots! About the book, I choose this : There are a lot of informations inside, I am reading it ! @webemopes : I have to buy all the parts so I think take all in new. For the heads I agree with you, Edelbrock Performer RPM seems ok ! You think that a 871 is better ? why ? it's for more horsepower no ? @Streetwize : thank you for your answer ! About the crankshaft, something like that is ok ? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-444037506760/overview/make/dodgeFor the pistons you said there are specifically available for supercharger, where can I find them ? Indeed I will do check the block by a pro but he said to me that he need a crankshaft for some controls. Ok for the Edelbrock RPM heads ! for the other infos, I keep all your informations in a file, I want to build the engine step by step, otherwise I will not find the way.. thank you one more time ! I find this table on Holley superchargers : So I think that something like 8.0:1 static compression ratio with 4psi of boost (10.2:1 effective compression ratio) is good, no ?
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: Filex]
#1467554
07/15/13 07:31 PM
07/15/13 07:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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The "effective compression ratio" chart is nonsense. If you examine the numbers, they're simply (atmospheric pressure + boost pressure) ÷ ATM, then × the static CR. Example: 8.0:1 CR with 12 psi boost shows 14.5:1 CR on that chart. Assuming 14.7 for atmospheric pressure: (14.7 + 12) ÷ 14.7 × 8 = 14.53 What's actually happening? The effective CR is 12.5:1. How is that calculated? Read my article: http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/blower-engine5.htm
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: polyspheric]
#1467555
07/15/13 09:49 PM
07/15/13 09:49 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489 northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
master
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master
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
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Quote:
The "effective compression ratio" chart is nonsense. If you examine the numbers, they're simply (atmospheric pressure + boost pressure) ÷ ATM, then × the static CR. Example: 8.0:1 CR with 12 psi boost shows 14.5:1 CR on that chart. Assuming 14.7 for atmospheric pressure: (14.7 + 12) ÷ 14.7 × 8 = 14.53
What's actually happening? The effective CR is 12.5:1. How is that calculated? Read my article: http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/blower-engine5.htm
I am wresteling with the cr stuff myself cuz 14# on a stock head is not the same cylinder pressure on a 70cfm gain aluminum head[about 200 more hp]and is not the same cr.
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: Streetwize]
#1467556
07/16/13 05:58 PM
07/16/13 05:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13 Loire Atlantique
Filex
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
Loire Atlantique
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Quote:
For much better results you want a zero deck piston with an inverted dome 'D dish' to ensure quench and lower static compression. Combined with a closed chamber head your blower engine will make much better torque and horsepower than using a traditional "deep in the hole" (piston well below the deck height at top dead center) OEM style piston.
I am searching for a complete rotating kit for 8.5 compression but it's hard to find...
In french forums they said that I have to choose a complete balanced rotating kit because if I choose different parts I have to balance them and nobody can do that in France.
Is that true ? It's not possible to buy different pistons, rods and cranks without balance them ?
@polyspheric : I will read your article, thank you !
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: Filex]
#1467557
07/16/13 06:55 PM
07/16/13 06:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
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I just sent a note to one of my customers in France who has a 416 stroker 340 he built there, maybe he knows of someone who can balance the motor for you. I would probably call Diamod pistons as they seem to do a fair amount of Dished pistons with quench for strokers, I'm certain they can make a set of 8.5:1 blower pistons for you. A balanced assembly could a good/more economical way to go as long as you have the block machined and know your deck height and bore size in advance
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: Streetwize]
#1467558
07/16/13 07:20 PM
07/16/13 07:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13 Loire Atlantique
Filex
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Thank you it's really nice ! If I choose parts from differents brands/shop, It is an obligation to balance the assembly ? I will send an email to Diamod pistons
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Re: Big block with 6/71 roots project
[Re: Streetwize]
#1467559
07/17/13 11:42 AM
07/17/13 11:42 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 347 FRANCE, Paris
Chal340
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 347
FRANCE, Paris
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Hi Bobby how are you? I received your email. Filex, to balance and prepare your block, the best is to send them at Hauser Racing in UK. I made this for my block and it's less expensive and you will be sure of the result. (As I said you in our french forum ) The best would be to buy a complet kit, cranck, rods and pistons balanced to Mike at MM for exemple and send it with your block for the decking to Hauser. Quote:
I just sent a note to one of my customers in France who has a 416 sqtroker 340 he built there, maybe he knows of someone who can balance the motor for you.
I would probably call Diamod pistons as they seem to do a fair amount of Dished pistons with quench for strokers, I'm certain they can make a set of 8.5:1 blower pistons for you.
A balanced assembly could a good/more economical way to go as long as you have the block machined and know your deck height and bore size in advance
70 Challenger, A66, 340 ci
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