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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: Larry]
#1463453
07/06/13 11:43 AM
07/06/13 11:43 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,708
S. Il. U.S.A.
5spdcuda
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,708
S. Il. U.S.A.
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My car was a 4-speed originally. In so far as driving is concerned the 5-speed is big improvement. I did have to to do more transmission tunnel work than I would have prefered in order to get a good driveline angle. When it comes to shift quality the Tremec isn't bad, but I would give the edge to a well built 833 with Hurst linkage. "E" bodies and probably '71& '72 "B" bodies require an external linkage to operate the internal rails on the Tremec. Adding extra linkage has never improved shift quality in my experience. Even so it still shifts better than the T-5 in my Mustang which is similar in design to the TKO. As for durability I have 55,000 miles on mine. I shift at 6,200 rpm, but I certainly don't have the torque of a 500 cid big block.
Last edited by 5spdcuda; 07/06/13 11:46 AM.
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: 5spdcuda]
#1463454
07/06/13 11:50 AM
07/06/13 11:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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I don't like the way Tremecs shift at all, gear ranges are fine but in my experience the shifting is too notchy and slow as compared to an 833 design plus you need to hack your floors to install one. If you are not in a rush you should consider one of these: Passon 5 Speed I'm on the list for one myself, should be an awesome trans! 
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: Larry]
#1463458
07/08/13 08:36 PM
07/08/13 08:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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I didn't like how my Tremec TKO shifted either, and yes my bell was dialed in. If I ran another TKO, I would have the syncros upgraded by liberty or someone similar.
Now the Tremec T56 that I have now shifts like butter. I've driven another Dakota with a T56, as well as a Viper. All 3 transmissions were butter smooth as far as shifting. However... Fitting a giant 6-spd T56 is even harder than fitting the TKO.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: Larry]
#1463459
07/08/13 10:37 PM
07/08/13 10:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,708
S. Il. U.S.A.
5spdcuda
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,708
S. Il. U.S.A.
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I've had the Tremec in since late '03 or early '04. At the time it was the only real option. The 1st. transmission they sent me was an early one and it wouldn't fit worth a d#$%. They sent me an updated version at their expense and it fit a lot better, but I still needed to work the tunnel over to get the driveline angle I wanted. I agree Tremecs tend to be notchy and the earlier trans like mine have more 1 st. gear reduction than is either wanted or needed. The TKO definitely shifts better than the T-5 in my daily driver Mustang, but I still don't trust it for full throtle power shifts. On that subject if you make a habit of full throtle power shifts you are going to eventually have sychro problems unless it is a true racing transmission. Still the TKO can be shifted pretty quickly, just a momentary throtle lift. The T 56 may shift better [ I haven't driven one ], but it is a lot bigger and heavier and the only reason they have double overdrive is to help the OEM's make C A F E standards. Most fair size engines have a broad enough torque curve that they don't really need more than five speeds. As for the Passion unit, I've met Jamie and seen the prototype transmission at the Indy trade show a year ago. IMO he is determined to produce a quality product and it looks to me like it will fit without any significant chassis modifications. The only real question is when will it be ready? As for cost, the Tremec transmission itself is cheaper, but when you add in the cost of everything else needed to make it work it should come out about the same. Finally there is the Keisler SS 700. Currently this transmission isn't available for "E" bodies, but they are working on it. I was in Knoxville back in April and I took the opportunity to stop in [ unannounced ] and see their operation first hand. They gave me a tour of the place and they are actually assembling transmissions. The SS 700 appears to be an easier fit than the Tremec, but I can't be sure of this. Good luck with your project. Pm me if you wish and I'll give you contact info if you want to talk about this in greater detail.
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: Larry]
#1463461
07/08/13 11:30 PM
07/08/13 11:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Larry regardless of whether you choose a Keisler, American Powertrain, or Hurst/Classic 5 TKO set-up, if your not inclined to mod the transmission tunnel, and perform some additional trimming of the transmission case, and most likely a change in rear pinion angle, either thru rewelding the perches, or axle perch shims, then a TKO is not in the "cards" for you...  your best off waiting for a possible E body Passon application But if a TKO is what you want, Keisler, APT or Hurst/Classic 5 all have fine products, each company having varying degrees of applications/options/etc, I done many TKO swaps in many Mopar models A,B,E 68-74, and a few brand X's,...the TKO's have progressed a lot in the last 10+ years from these manufacturers, cases have been continually modified by some mfg's for better fit, better generations of shift towers have been offered for improved shifts, hyd. throw out assys have also improved greatly, Although I deal exclusively with Keisler, I've known a few of the guys that have/do work/ed for APT, and Classic 5, all former Keisler employees, and all great guys to deal with regardless of who they're currently working for... Almost all the TKO's offered, are generally rated for 650 ft lbs torque max, depending on what your doing with your stroker, and it's output, something to consider, TKO's can be upgraded for higher output, but this is something to discuss with the company of your choice, should you require a higher torque capacity?... I generally recommend you go with a mfg's full kit, rather than piece it together, this is where most cause their own problems, application, and installation..., I generally recommend the TKO 600/650 .64 OD, to utilize the maximum potential of the OD, some have a concern/fear of such a "low" rpm/gear drop, that they shy away from the .64, but if you have plenty of HP on tap, you don't notice it, if your running rear gears in the 3:00-3:50 range, and HP is in the 350-400 range, then appreciable lag will be experienced shifting into, and running 5th... Most of the mfg's offer multiple 1st/2nd/3rd gear ratio options, 4th is 1:1 regardless of the mfg, or OD range selected...again you need to decide the intended purpose of the vehicle when picking gear spreads, as well as working with what engine, rear gear, and tire combo your running.... IMHO, Keisler has a greater offering in the TKO market, with American PowerTrain running a close second....Talk to Jeff Kaufmann at Keisler ext 212, or Gray Fredricks at APT for some insight/info/tech/application needs Mike
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: Carsavior]
#1463463
07/09/13 01:05 AM
07/09/13 01:05 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
I been running the Keisler 5-speed in my Challenger since 02. One tranny prob I ran into was the buzzing shifter but I have an old e-mail from them telling me to get it back to them and they will remedy the prob. I just can't get time to pull the tranny back out.
Other problem is a little more serious. the tranny fit ok but the set-up I have dropped the tail of the tranny slightly. I have no drive train issues, vibrations, or anything, but the oil pan on the engine is right up against the tie rod crossbar. I dropped the tie rod and dented the bottom of the oil pan with a hammer against a short piece of pipe, but is is still uncomfortably close. just my .02-
You have the first Generation shift tower, some would experience the "buzzsaw" vibration in the shifter handle at various RPM ranges, a 3rd GEN shift Tower eliminates that problem, I'd contact Keisler to see what they could offer you to upgrade the shifter/rail
As far as the increased downward angle in the driveline, yeah that's always been an issue with any TKO install, as it's a rather tall case, and the early TKO kit supplier were hesitant on machining the cases of excess ribbing/gussets or the multiple bosses cast into it, if your going to pull the tranny for an upgrade, have the case trimmed, plus trim whatever you feel is hindering the transmission from sitting higher in the driveline plane, on the E body and 71-2 B body trimming the transmission alone can raise the tailshaft a good 1 to 1-1/2", I've never had to alter the torsion bar/transmission crossmember, I trim the tranny case/tailshaft to a bare minimum, esp the tailshaft upper rib, and a few of the forward mounting bosses on the passenger side up near the bellhousing mounting ears are useless, and interfere with the transmission hump/floor, cut them off, and make an appropriate shim for the tranny mount to raise the tailshaft
Mike
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: 71birdJ68]
#1463465
07/09/13 10:57 AM
07/09/13 10:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
Heres what made up my mind.1. Hacking up the sheet metal.2. I asked different people about these transmissions, one guy said, that if I was raised on the old stuff, that I wouldn't like the way the new stuff shifted. So I got a Passon 4 speed OD. Heck,he even had a proper date coded case for me.
Same here, what made up my mind to NEVER want a new process/Chrysler 883 4spd in any of my cars ever again was how nice and short the shift throws were on the TKO's, plus being able to run 4:10 rear gears and top out in the mid 140 MPH range, plus still have killer street performance, and have the ability to knock down 20-22 MPG on long cruises with a 440/6, or 16-18 MPG with a 472 HEMI, no more leg cramps pushing a 3200-3400 pressure plate, now I just let a hyd throw out bearing do the job on the same pressure plate,....
yeah I miss those days of having 4:10's, a Chrysler 4 spd, and being lucky if I could hit 60 MPH, constantly stopping for gas because I'm constantly at 5500 RPM on the highway sucking down 8-10 MPG with a 1:1 drive ratio on a boat rowing 4 spd,...yeah I'd want to go back to that 
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: LAR_414]
#1463469
07/09/13 01:18 PM
07/09/13 01:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
I'm not going after the 5 spd vs 4 spd debate...clearly a 5sp is preferred in all around situations.
Actually I'd be more inclined nowadays to expend the effort and expense go with a 6 speed T56 .50 OD...5spds have gotten kind of "old school"....4spds are best left to the guys that like to run 29" truck tires on their rides to try and offset high numerical gears....sorry but I see no virtues to the 4spd, they were the greatest thing decades ago, but so were 4 wheel drum brakes, and point type ignitions, ...gotta go I'm getting a finger cramp typing replies to you... 
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1463470
07/09/13 02:35 PM
07/09/13 02:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,452
Morristown Tn.
71birdJ68
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,452
Morristown Tn.
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Quote:
Quote:
Heres what made up my mind.1. Hacking up the sheet metal.2. I asked different people about these transmissions, one guy said, that if I was raised on the old stuff, that I wouldn't like the way the new stuff shifted. So I got a Passon 4 speed OD. Heck,he even had a proper date coded case for me.
Same here, what made up my mind to NEVER want a new process/Chrysler 883 4spd in any of my cars ever again was how nice and short the shift throws were on the TKO's, plus being able to run 4:10 rear gears and top out in the mid 140 MPH range, plus still have killer street performance, and have the ability to knock down 20-22 MPG on long cruises with a 440/6, or 16-18 MPG with a 472 HEMI, no more leg cramps pushing a 3200-3400 pressure plate, now I just let a hyd throw out bearing do the job on the same pressure plate,....
yeah I miss those days of having 4:10's, a Chrysler 4 spd, and being lucky if I could hit 60 MPH, constantly stopping for gas because I'm constantly at 5500 RPM on the highway sucking down 8-10 MPG with a 1:1 drive ratio on a boat rowing 4 spd,...yeah I'd want to go back to that
You know, every time this subject is brought up you chime in with the same sales campaign for Shafi. What I meant about the shifting, was the old stuff has a different feel to it, and most people that grew up driving those cars like it better.Now all that other garbage your selling,guess what, I will be able to do that too with the OD that I have. But you know there is something you can't do with Shafi's or any of those other transmissions. ORDER COMPLETELY STOCK SHIFTER, SHIFT RODS, AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT GOES WITH AN INSTALL AND JUST BOLT IT IN, without having a machine shop, a welding shop, and a sheet metal shop on hand. Not to mention cutting up a valuable car.
Now for every body listening in,I know your out there. How many times have you been promised true bolt in conversions from Shafi,OR anybody else, that sells this stuff ? How has that worked out for you? Do you get a W2 from Shafi?
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Re: 5 speed transmission - 1970 E body
[Re: 71birdJ68]
#1463471
07/09/13 04:29 PM
07/09/13 04:29 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,608
fresno ca
mikeysmopars
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,608
fresno ca
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Wow  I have the early version in my vert and its the 600 hp unit. Mine has the factory bell that was sent to keisler and machined and uses the stock fork. Mine leaked and shifter like crap at first, sent it back and they upgraded the shifter and fixed the leaks(for a while) now leaking again. Its a great driver trans but will hang up third gear if you try to power shift it.I had no fitment issues though. I had a 70 road runner with 426 hemi and a standard stock 23 spline 833 that would outshift that keisler any day. I do however like going on a road trip and shoving it into 5th and cruising at 75 to 80 
Founder and CEO of the Central Valley Mopar Drag Pack
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