440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? Update
#1436683
05/15/13 01:41 AM
05/15/13 01:41 AM
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challenger70
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So I have been getting exhaust out the breather at high rpm and did a compression check. Engine is an iron headed 440 in my '70 Challenger with about 10,000 miles on it. Test was done hot, at first anyway. #1=170, 2=40(yes 40), 3=174, 4=15(yes 15), 5=169, 6=171, 7=185, 8=170. Other than the exhaust out the breather, the car runs fine, no coolant in the oil, doesn't seem to be going through unusual amount of oil or coolant, but clearly something is up. The pamphlet with my tester says 2 adjacent cylinders down more than 20 psi from the others (2&4) is probably a head gasket. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shruggy.gif) Any advice is appreciated ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smilie_help.gif)
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: challenger70]
#1436684
05/15/13 01:53 AM
05/15/13 01:53 AM
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sthemi
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There is a leak down test, that can better determine if it is a valve or gasket. Might as well pull the heads and take to the machine shop. If the gasket is blown, it may be warped heads, they will need to be checked ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif)
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: challenger70]
#1436687
05/15/13 11:00 AM
05/15/13 11:00 AM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Thanks for the help, having never pulled a head before, how do I determine what replacement gasket I need? I am pretty sure my engine is .030 over but do not know what thickness I need to maintain my current compression. Can I measure the existing gasket once I pull the head or Do I need new head bolts or can I reuse the existing ones assuming they are in good shape? Any tricks to it or is it just pull, remove old gasket replace w/ a new one and retorque? I don't mind venturing into new territory as long as I see a road home Thanks for the help
The gasket will have a part number on it , if it's a Fel Pro composite it's probably the 8519 , if it's a steel shim it's probably a mr. gasket or the MP gasket.
Pull the head and go from there.
How long has it been like this ? Hopefully you didn't torch the block or head surface between the cylinders.
also you aren't seeing exh out the breather , it's blowby gas past the rings
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1436689
05/15/13 11:53 AM
05/15/13 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
How long has it been like this ? Hopefully you didn't torch the block or head surface between the cylinders.
I was concerned about that too. If a visual shows an obvious problem you'd have to dissassemble & take it in but even if there's no damage that you can see I'd still have your machinist check the block/head decks for flatness/warpage. Reuse your head bolts
Honestly, it's been a while, few hundred miles or so at least since I noticed it, who knows how long before... Hopefully it's ok Should I do both head gaskets while I am at it? Engine build is about 10 years old now. I guess I will pull the head and see where I am at. Thanks for the help, I am sure I will need more!
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: JohnRR]
#1436692
05/15/13 02:23 PM
05/15/13 02:23 PM
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Posts: 18,582 Rust Belt, SW PA
Silver70
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By the time you pull the intake and such off, I would do both sides and be done with it.
68 Road Runner, 69 Belvedere, 71 Challenger Vert 340 barracuda, 01 Ram CTD, 95 Ram, 04 Ram, 85 Daytona turbo Z 66 GTO, 06 Magnum RT AWD. 07 Ram CTD, 07 Ram
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: stumpy]
#1436694
05/16/13 02:47 AM
05/16/13 02:47 AM
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sthemi
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Do both sides, drain the radiator, pull the valve covers, intake, spark plugs, rocker arms and exhaust. Dont disassemble the rocker arms, pull them as a unit and lay inside a valve cover with the bolts still in it. unbolt the head bolts and lift off. I personally prefer the steel shim gaskets, but everyone will like something different.. If you run into trouble, I am pretty close by and can swing by. One of the posters mentioned torching, that is when the lit gases travel from one cylinder to another and erode a portion of the block.
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: sthemi]
#1436695
05/16/13 12:00 PM
05/16/13 12:00 PM
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challenger70
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Quote:
Do both sides, drain the radiator, pull the valve covers, intake, spark plugs, rocker arms and exhaust. Dont disassemble the rocker arms, pull them as a unit and lay inside a valve cover with the bolts still in it. unbolt the head bolts and lift off. I personally prefer the steel shim gaskets, but everyone will like something different.. If you run into trouble, I am pretty close by and can swing by. One of the posters mentioned torching, that is when the lit gases travel from one cylinder to another and erode a portion of the block.
Thanks, out of curiousity these steps all make sense except pulling the shaft rocker system off the heads. Is that neccasary to remove the heads? Just curious what this step accomplishes, thanks for the advice, explanation and help ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbs.gif)
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: challenger70]
#1436697
05/16/13 12:04 PM
05/16/13 12:04 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Do both sides, drain the radiator, pull the valve covers, intake, spark plugs, rocker arms and exhaust. Dont disassemble the rocker arms, pull them as a unit and lay inside a valve cover with the bolts still in it. unbolt the head bolts and lift off. I personally prefer the steel shim gaskets, but everyone will like something different.. If you run into trouble, I am pretty close by and can swing by. One of the posters mentioned torching, that is when the lit gases travel from one cylinder to another and erode a portion of the block.
Thanks, out of curiousity these steps all make sense except pulling the shaft rocker system off the heads. Is that neccasary to remove the heads? Just curious what this step accomplishes, thanks for the advice, explanation and help
How would you get the pushrods out if you didn't pull the rockers ? How would you hold the pushrods upright so you could get the head back on if you left the rockers in place ?
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: dogdays]
#1436698
05/16/13 12:25 PM
05/16/13 12:25 PM
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Quote:
It's a lot easier to take off the heads if the pushrods aren't in the way. Taking off the rocker shaft assembly allows the pushrods to be removed easily. It's a 5-minute job.
Keeping all the parts together and in order helps the reassembly, too.
R.
Thanks, it made more sense on aligning the pushrods for re-assembly to me, minds well do it when you take them off to make that easier too, thanks for all the help.
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: challenger70]
#1436699
05/16/13 12:41 PM
05/16/13 12:41 PM
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RapidRobert
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Dont forget to FIRST pull the block drain plugs (1) on each side of the block/roughly in the middle/down at the pan rail
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1436700
05/16/13 10:52 PM
05/16/13 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Dont forget to FIRST pull the block drain plugs (1) on each side of the block/roughly in the middle/down at the pan rail
Do I need to do this if I drain the radiator?
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: JohnRR]
#1436704
05/17/13 10:57 AM
05/17/13 10:57 AM
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Yes you could pull the head with rockers in place , but it would be a pain plus the head is going to lift off the block when the headbolts are loosened because some valves are open.
I use a coat hanger or the dipstick to hold the pushrods up on reinstall.
Thanks for the tips what is the best/easiest way to pop out the freeze plug in the block? Can I reuse them? Just mentally preparing my parts order. So far assuming no head/block damage I am thinking 1)head gaskets, 2)intake gasket, 3)set of freeze plugs(if I can't re-use), anything else I am overlooking? I am hoping to start teardown this weekend after the Chicagoland Mopar Connection Show.
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: challenger70]
#1436705
05/17/13 11:02 AM
05/17/13 11:02 AM
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JohnRR
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Why are you removing freeze plugs ? and no they are not reusable. There is an NPT plug in the side of the block , in the middle and about half way up between 2 freeze plugs , this is what you remove to drain down the block , draining the radiator usually only drains it down to the bottom water pump hole. You can take off the lower radiator hose and jack up the rear of the car as high as possible, this will drain more of the block .... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
Last edited by JohnRR; 05/17/13 11:10 AM.
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: JohnRR]
#1436706
05/17/13 11:06 AM
05/17/13 11:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
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Quote:
Why are you removing freeze plugs ? and no they are not reusable.
there is an NPT plug in the side of the block , in the middle and about half way up between 2 freeze plugs , this is what you remove to drain down the block , draining the radiator uaully only dranins it down to the bottom water pump hole.
You ca take off the lower radiator hose and jack up the rear of the car as high as possible, this will drain more of the block ....
what he said... you can also jack the side of the car up you are working on, but then you will need a stool or something to stand on.
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1436707
05/17/13 11:08 AM
05/17/13 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Why are you removing freeze plugs ? and no they are not reusable.
there is an NPT plug in the side of the block , in the middle and about half way up between 2 freeze plugs , this is what you remove to drain down the block , draining the radiator uaully only dranins it down to the bottom water pump hole.
You ca take off the lower radiator hose and jack up the rear of the car as high as possible, this will drain more of the block ....
what he said... you can also jack the side of the car up you are working on, but then you will need a stool or something to stand on.
Doh! I did not know there was a regular plug, I assumed it was a freeze plug, and we know what happens when you assume... thanks!
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: buildanother]
#1436709
05/17/13 11:38 AM
05/17/13 11:38 AM
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RapidRobert
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If they're stuck break em loose with a BFH hammer rap on a breaker bar/socket rather than a steady pull
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: sthemi]
#1436711
05/20/13 11:06 AM
05/20/13 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Do not take the freeze plugs out, they are not reuseable and nearly impossible to replace in the car. the threaded plugs may or may not come out, I have never taken one out, for any reason..put a drain pan under the car and leave them in.
Thanks guys, I guess I need to decide if I want to go the drain plug route or the jack the back of the car up and drain route... ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1343795-scratchchin.gif)
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: challenger70]
#1436712
05/20/13 12:15 PM
05/20/13 12:15 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Do not take the freeze plugs out, they are not reuseable and nearly impossible to replace in the car. the threaded plugs may or may not come out, I have never taken one out, for any reason..put a drain pan under the car and leave them in.
Thanks guys, I guess I need to decide if I want to go the drain plug route or the jack the back of the car up and drain route...
jacking up the back of the car is less messy, when you pull the plugs they are going to spray all over the steering and K frame .Jacking up just remove the lower hose and direct it into your drain pan after you've drained the radiator.
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ???
[Re: challenger70]
#1436717
05/25/13 08:02 PM
05/25/13 08:02 PM
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RapidRobert
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I'd bout be tempted to get a new bolt & torque it in & try it but with it bleeding compression between the 2 cyls as you originally stated I think it will have to come apart but I think I'd try it for a day just to see ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif) . Wait & see what others say. Dont forget to pull the hex block drain plug on that side as draining the rad only lowers the coolant to the level of the lower block front 1&1/8" main coolant hole on that side & it will spill coolant out of the outer deck holes which are below that level into the cyls when you pull the head
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update
[Re: dogdays]
#1436720
06/09/13 07:58 PM
06/09/13 07:58 PM
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ok, I finally got around to pulling the head, everything looks ok head/block wise, anyway to tell for sure without the machine shop route? I do not feel any ridges/depressions with my finger nail. There was a piece of head gasket missing between cylinder 2&4. Now for the litany of questions;
1) Head gasket was part number 8519PTI(8519PT1?), I believe it's a fel-pro, is there a better alternative? I believe my engine is .030 over.
2) Should I get new headbolts? If so which ones, ARP? If not, I have a set from an early 70's RV440 I tore down, can I just swap out one of those for the knicked/marred up one? Is there somewhere I can find a matching bolt to the set I have.
3) I have a one piece valley intake gasket (one giant gasket for both sides and valley), better alternatives? Existing one has the heat crossover I'd like to block that off, any reason not too? (car just gets warmed up every now and then in Winter, rarely driven). Car has Performer RPM intake and iron heads. Is there any setups to separate the valley tray from the intake gasket?
4) I'd like to order all the parts at once to redo both sides, my mental parts list is new header collector gaskets, header gaskets, head gaskets, intake gasket, carb gasket, possibly new headbolts (if necessary). Am I missing anything? Do I need any locktite or gasket sealer? (I know the header bolts need sealant since they go through into the coolant passages).
Pics to follow...
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Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update
[Re: dogdays]
#1436728
06/14/13 02:08 PM
06/14/13 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Check other posts, head bolt retorquing is not done very much at all. The location of the bolt is a problem to me, as it is in the middle which should be torqued first or second in the usual pattern.
R.
Is the "usual pattern" specified in the Factory Service Manual, or is there a better/different pattern to use?
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