440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? Update

Posted By: challenger70

440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? Update - 05/15/13 05:41 AM

So I have been getting exhaust out the breather at high rpm and did a compression check. Engine is an iron headed 440 in my '70 Challenger with about 10,000 miles on it. Test was done hot, at first anyway.

#1=170, 2=40(yes 40), 3=174, 4=15(yes 15), 5=169, 6=171, 7=185, 8=170.

Other than the exhaust out the breather, the car runs fine, no coolant in the oil, doesn't seem to be going through unusual amount of oil or coolant, but clearly something is up. The pamphlet with my tester says 2 adjacent cylinders down more than 20 psi from the others (2&4) is probably a head gasket.

Any advice is appreciated

Posted By: sthemi

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 05:53 AM

There is a leak down test, that can better determine if it is a valve or gasket.
Might as well pull the heads and take to the machine shop.
If the gasket is blown, it may be warped heads, they will need to be checked

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 01:44 PM

Quote:

probably a head gasket.

Yes classic symptom of blown head gasket between those 2 cyls. No more diagnosing needed, unfortunately it's time to pull the head.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 02:56 PM

Thanks for the help, having never pulled a head before, how do I determine what replacement gasket I need? I am pretty sure my engine is .030 over but do not know what thickness I need to maintain my current compression. Can I measure the existing gasket once I pull the head or

Do I need new head bolts or can I reuse the existing ones assuming they are in good shape? Any tricks to it or is it just pull, remove old gasket replace w/ a new one and retorque? I don't mind venturing into new territory as long as I see a road home

Thanks for the help

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 03:00 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the help, having never pulled a head before, how do I determine what replacement gasket I need? I am pretty sure my engine is .030 over but do not know what thickness I need to maintain my current compression. Can I measure the existing gasket once I pull the head or Do I need new head bolts or can I reuse the existing ones assuming they are in good shape? Any tricks to it or is it just pull, remove old gasket replace w/ a new one and retorque? I don't mind venturing into new territory as long as I see a road home Thanks for the help

The gasket will have a part number on it , if it's a Fel Pro composite it's probably the 8519 , if it's a steel shim it's probably a mr. gasket or the MP gasket.

Pull the head and go from there.

How long has it been like this ? Hopefully you didn't torch the block or head surface between the cylinders.

also you aren't seeing exh out the breather , it's blowby gas past the rings

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 03:11 PM

Quote:

How long has it been like this ? Hopefully you didn't torch the block or head surface between the cylinders.

I was concerned about that too. If a visual shows an obvious problem you'd have to dissassemble & take it in but even if there's no damage that you can see I'd still have your machinist check the block/head decks for flatness/warpage. Reuse your head bolts

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 03:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How long has it been like this ? Hopefully you didn't torch the block or head surface between the cylinders.

I was concerned about that too. If a visual shows an obvious problem you'd have to dissassemble & take it in but even if there's no damage that you can see I'd still have your machinist check the block/head decks for flatness/warpage. Reuse your head bolts

Honestly, it's been a while, few hundred miles or so at least since I noticed it, who knows how long before... Hopefully it's ok

Should I do both head gaskets while I am at it? Engine build is about 10 years old now. I guess I will pull the head and see where I am at. Thanks for the help, I am sure I will need more!

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 05:38 PM

Quote:

Should I do both head gaskets while I am at it?

No unless milling is required on the block on that side of the deck then of course it'll all have to be stripped/eng pulled & redone with both new head gaskets etc & might be a good idea to have both decks milled at that time or even both square decked depending on what you want & they will for sure check the other deck when they get it in the shop

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 06:13 PM

You need to look at the block and heads closely and find out what happened and more importantly WHY , or it will keep happeneing.

Most rebuilds do not get the block milled and after thousands of heat cycles these blocks are anything but true and parallel.

Posted By: Silver70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 06:23 PM

By the time you pull the intake and such off, I would do both sides and be done with it.

Posted By: stumpy

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/15/13 07:17 PM

You should go ahead and do both sides while your at it. Not that much more work or money and you'd be sure not to have to do it all over again.

Posted By: sthemi

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/16/13 06:47 AM

Do both sides,
drain the radiator, pull the valve covers, intake, spark plugs, rocker arms and exhaust. Dont disassemble the rocker arms, pull them as a unit and lay inside a valve cover with the bolts still in it.
unbolt the head bolts and lift off.
I personally prefer the steel shim gaskets, but everyone will like something different..
If you run into trouble, I am pretty close by and can swing by.
One of the posters mentioned torching, that is when the lit gases travel from one cylinder to another and erode a portion of the block.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/16/13 04:00 PM

Quote:

Do both sides,
drain the radiator, pull the valve covers, intake, spark plugs, rocker arms and exhaust. Dont disassemble the rocker arms, pull them as a unit and lay inside a valve cover with the bolts still in it.
unbolt the head bolts and lift off.
I personally prefer the steel shim gaskets, but everyone will like something different..
If you run into trouble, I am pretty close by and can swing by.
One of the posters mentioned torching, that is when the lit gases travel from one cylinder to another and erode a portion of the block.

Thanks, out of curiousity these steps all make sense except pulling the shaft rocker system off the heads. Is that neccasary to remove the heads? Just curious what this step accomplishes, thanks for the advice, explanation and help

Posted By: dogdays

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/16/13 04:03 PM

It's a lot easier to take off the heads if the pushrods aren't in the way. Taking off the rocker shaft assembly allows the pushrods to be removed easily. It's a 5-minute job.

Keeping all the parts together and in order helps the reassembly, too.

R.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/16/13 04:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Do both sides,
drain the radiator, pull the valve covers, intake, spark plugs, rocker arms and exhaust. Dont disassemble the rocker arms, pull them as a unit and lay inside a valve cover with the bolts still in it.
unbolt the head bolts and lift off.
I personally prefer the steel shim gaskets, but everyone will like something different..
If you run into trouble, I am pretty close by and can swing by.
One of the posters mentioned torching, that is when the lit gases travel from one cylinder to another and erode a portion of the block.

Thanks, out of curiousity these steps all make sense except pulling the shaft rocker system off the heads. Is that neccasary to remove the heads? Just curious what this step accomplishes, thanks for the advice, explanation and help

How would you get the pushrods out if you didn't pull the rockers ? How would you hold the pushrods upright so you could get the head back on if you left the rockers in place ?

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/16/13 04:25 PM

Quote:

It's a lot easier to take off the heads if the pushrods aren't in the way. Taking off the rocker shaft assembly allows the pushrods to be removed easily. It's a 5-minute job.

Keeping all the parts together and in order helps the reassembly, too.

R.

Thanks, it made more sense on aligning the pushrods for re-assembly to me, minds well do it when you take them off to make that easier too, thanks for all the help.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/16/13 04:41 PM

Dont forget to FIRST pull the block drain plugs (1) on each side of the block/roughly in the middle/down at the pan rail

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 02:52 AM

Quote:

Dont forget to FIRST pull the block drain plugs (1) on each side of the block/roughly in the middle/down at the pan rail

Do I need to do this if I drain the radiator?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 03:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Dont forget to FIRST pull the block drain plugs (1) on each side of the block/roughly in the middle/down at the pan rail

Do I need to do this if I drain the radiator?

Yes

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 02:34 PM

can you even pull a head w/o removing the rockers? Never tried it. It takes like 3 minutes... and a re-install trick I use is a straighten coat hanger to hold all the push rods in place as you tighten down the rocker shaft.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 02:37 PM

Yes you could pull the head with rockers in place , but it would be a pain plus the head is going to lift off the block when the headbolts are loosened because some valves are open.

I use a coat hanger or the dipstick to hold the pushrods up on reinstall.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 02:57 PM

Quote:

Yes you could pull the head with rockers in place , but it would be a pain plus the head is going to lift off the block when the headbolts are loosened because some valves are open.

I use a coat hanger or the dipstick to hold the pushrods up on reinstall.

Thanks for the tips

what is the best/easiest way to pop out the freeze plug in the block? Can I reuse them? Just mentally preparing my parts order. So far assuming no head/block damage I am thinking 1)head gaskets, 2)intake gasket, 3)set of freeze plugs(if I can't re-use), anything else I am overlooking? I am hoping to start teardown this weekend after the Chicagoland Mopar Connection Show.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 03:02 PM

Why are you removing freeze plugs ? and no they are not reusable.

There is an NPT plug in the side of the block , in the middle and about half way up between 2 freeze plugs , this is what you remove to drain down the block , draining the radiator usually only drains it down to the bottom water pump hole.

You can take off the lower radiator hose and jack up the rear of the car as high as possible, this will drain more of the block ....

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 03:06 PM

Quote:

Why are you removing freeze plugs ? and no they are not reusable.

there is an NPT plug in the side of the block , in the middle and about half way up between 2 freeze plugs , this is what you remove to drain down the block , draining the radiator uaully only dranins it down to the bottom water pump hole.

You ca take off the lower radiator hose and jack up the rear of the car as high as possible, this will drain more of the block ....

what he said... you can also jack the side of the car up you are working on, but then you will need a stool or something to stand on.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 03:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Why are you removing freeze plugs ? and no they are not reusable.

there is an NPT plug in the side of the block , in the middle and about half way up between 2 freeze plugs , this is what you remove to drain down the block , draining the radiator uaully only dranins it down to the bottom water pump hole.

You ca take off the lower radiator hose and jack up the rear of the car as high as possible, this will drain more of the block ....

what he said... you can also jack the side of the car up you are working on, but then you will need a stool or something to stand on.

Doh! I did not know there was a regular plug, I assumed it was a freeze plug, and we know what happens when you assume... thanks!

Posted By: buildanother

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 03:33 PM

If those plugs have never been out, they might be a b%@*&$# to get out, especially with engine in chassis.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/17/13 03:38 PM

If they're stuck break em loose with a BFH hammer rap on a breaker bar/socket rather than a steady pull

Posted By: sthemi

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/18/13 04:22 AM

Do not take the freeze plugs out, they are not reuseable and nearly impossible to replace in the car.
the threaded plugs may or may not come out, I have never taken one out, for any reason..put a drain pan under the car and leave them in.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/20/13 03:06 PM

Quote:

Do not take the freeze plugs out, they are not reuseable and nearly impossible to replace in the car.
the threaded plugs may or may not come out, I have never taken one out, for any reason..put a drain pan under the car and leave them in.

Thanks guys, I guess I need to decide if I want to go the drain plug route or the jack the back of the car up and drain route...

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/20/13 04:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Do not take the freeze plugs out, they are not reuseable and nearly impossible to replace in the car.
the threaded plugs may or may not come out, I have never taken one out, for any reason..put a drain pan under the car and leave them in.

Thanks guys, I guess I need to decide if I want to go the drain plug route or the jack the back of the car up and drain route...

jacking up the back of the car is less messy, when you pull the plugs they are going to spray all over the steering and K frame .Jacking up just remove the lower hose and direct it into your drain pan after you've drained the radiator.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/25/13 11:27 PM

Well I made a little progress today before I had to call it quits and when I pulled the valve cover off I heard a clunk on the ground(that can't be good) and saw the headbolt between 2 and 4 was MIA

and the clunk I heard on the ground. The valvetrain looks ok, the threads were a bit chewed up on the bolt but it doesn't look like it did any visable damage to anything.

Attached picture 7718829-P5250080.JPG

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/25/13 11:29 PM

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/25/13 11:33 PM

Posted By: sthemi

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/26/13 12:01 AM

Now you know why the gasket blew out... probably want new bolts to attach the heads..
you will probably need to at least disconnect the header from the exaust pipe, you may have to remove it entirely..

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/26/13 12:02 AM

I'd bout be tempted to get a new bolt & torque it in & try it but with it bleeding compression between the 2 cyls as you originally stated I think it will have to come apart but I think I'd try it for a day just to see

. Wait & see what others say. Dont forget to pull the hex block drain plug on that side as draining the rad only lowers the coolant to the level of the lower block front 1&1/8" main coolant hole on that side & it will spill coolant out of the outer deck holes which are below that level into the cyls when you pull the head

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/27/13 12:28 PM

The bolt looks like that because it's been bouncing around inside the valve cover with the engine running ?

just pull the head , you've run it like that for too long that there is carbon and who knows what between the 2 cylinders. you probably don't need to pull the other side after seeing the head bolt missing.

Just jack up the rear of the car and that will lower the coolant enough , water finds it's own level , physics is funny that way ...

Posted By: dogdays

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket or ??? - 05/27/13 04:16 PM

You had better hope that the cylinder head did not get torched in the process. I have seen that happen it's not fun.
R.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/09/13 11:58 PM

ok, I finally got around to pulling the head, everything looks ok head/block wise, anyway to tell for sure without the machine shop route? I do not feel any ridges/depressions with my finger nail. There was a piece of head gasket missing between cylinder 2&4. Now for the litany of questions;

1) Head gasket was part number 8519PTI(8519PT1?), I believe it's a fel-pro, is there a better alternative? I believe my engine is .030 over.

2) Should I get new headbolts? If so which ones, ARP? If not, I have a set from an early 70's RV440 I tore down, can I just swap out one of those for the knicked/marred up one? Is there somewhere I can find a matching bolt to the set I have.

3) I have a one piece valley intake gasket (one giant gasket for both sides and valley), better alternatives? Existing one has the heat crossover I'd like to block that off, any reason not too? (car just gets warmed up every now and then in Winter, rarely driven). Car has Performer RPM intake and iron heads. Is there any setups to separate the valley tray from the intake gasket?

4) I'd like to order all the parts at once to redo both sides, my mental parts list is new header collector gaskets, header gaskets, head gaskets, intake gasket, carb gasket, possibly new headbolts (if necessary). Am I missing anything? Do I need any locktite or gasket sealer? (I know the header bolts need sealant since they go through into the coolant passages).

Pics to follow...

Attached picture 7736761-P6090128.JPG

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/10/13 12:00 AM

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/10/13 12:04 AM

Posted By: ireland383

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/10/13 01:30 AM

You could use a bolt from your other motor for the head. The felpro 8519 is a good gasket. As far as the valley use felpro1215. I'm pretty sure it has the crossover blocked.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/10/13 11:03 PM

Thanks I was wondering about that gasket seems awfully cheap (price wise) compared to others...

Posted By: dogdays

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/11/13 01:31 AM

Have you figured out why the head bolt came out?

R.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/11/13 03:02 PM

No, I figure I will chase the threads and clean everything up as much as I can, and make sure everything is ok on that front at least. I am guessing the bolts were never retourqued after a few heat cycles, but who knows

This motor was put together by Jasper racing in IN, I have heard mixed reviews since... If there is a more serious problem then the engine is coming out for a rebuild anyway.

Posted By: dogdays

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/11/13 05:56 PM

Check other posts, head bolt retorquing is not done very much at all. The location of the bolt is a problem to me, as it is in the middle which should be torqued first or second in the usual pattern.

R.

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/14/13 06:08 PM

Quote:

Check other posts, head bolt retorquing is not done very much at all. The location of the bolt is a problem to me, as it is in the middle which should be torqued first or second in the usual pattern.

R.

Is the "usual pattern" specified in the Factory Service Manual, or is there a better/different pattern to use?

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/14/13 07:24 PM

The FSM does have a picture of the tightening pattern they want you to use, start at the center head bolt and then go down to the two lower ones under it and then the two upper bolts between the intake passages and then down to the next further out on the lower row and so on

Posted By: challenger70

Re: 440 Compression Test Results-Head Gasket -Update - 06/28/13 03:13 PM

I ordered the parts from Mancini yesterday, I will update this as it goes back together