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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 500ciDuster]
#1388072
03/12/13 09:46 PM
03/12/13 09:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
My have a connection with an oil compmany that may be able to blend an off road oil, let me know what specs would be best and I'll see what I can do.
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one !! 
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 500ciDuster]
#1388073
03/12/13 10:04 PM
03/12/13 10:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
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Quote:
My have a connection with an oil compmany that may be able to blend an off road oil, let me know what specs would be best and I'll see what I can do.
There's a bunch of that stuff already on the market.
At least one of the local bulk oil companies offers "oil for vintage vehicles". I think even in bulk quantities too.
There's tons of private label stuff that blended for wholesalers and retailers.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: YO7_A66]
#1388074
03/13/13 01:16 AM
03/13/13 01:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 610
White Creek, NY
408cuda
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 610
White Creek, NY
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Again, perhaps this is worth a look CENPECO I buy it from a local distributor who delivers it to my shop for about what any good average qt of oil goes for. Have a few engines with it in them but nothing pulled down yet. I will say it has a cling to it like no other I have used, even hot with miles on it. Said it before, VR1 in my 408 with pretty quick ramp solid FT since it's start a few years ago but only time will tell how good it is.
Stuff I own
Self promotion
Things someone else said I claim as my own
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 67Satty]
#1388077
03/13/13 08:01 PM
03/13/13 08:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Quote:
I'm kinda scratching my head here and wondering why there is still so much hand-wringing and so many people adding potions and buying the expensive Joe Gibbs and Brad Penn stuff when it has now been shown by the independent analysis (for those who didn't believe all the racers posting here or the Valvoline website) that you can just use the inexpensive, over-the-counter Valvoline VR1 and have more than enough ZDDP. As far as engine break-in, just use the Comp Cams or similar break-in oil or additive. Am I missing something?
The tests show that VR-1 is a fine oil to use if you're concerned about ZDDP. But where I live, the Brad Penn oil costs the same as the VR-1 oil ($5.99/quart).
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: Junky]
#1388078
03/13/13 08:07 PM
03/13/13 08:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Just got off the phone with Chevron tech about "diesel" oils and the detergents in their diesel oil. The detergents are not like Tide or Ajax laundry soap or whatever which wash the surface of something solid. Their detergent is formulated to suspend soot so there is no build-up. The tech guy assured me that there is no harm done running diesel oil in a gas, flat tappet cam engine concerning zinc or anything else. It is formulated to run in both diesel and gas engines. All Fleet Oil
Besides, it makes no sense to me for an oil company to put out an oil with relatively high levels of zinc, then add a detergent to basically wash it away from metal surfaces, now does it. That wouldn't bode well for their product, and Chevron Oils are high quality as well as others.
So again, show me hard data that shows diesel oil "washing" away the effectiveness of zinc in a gas engine.
Notice that in my post, I said that SOME detergents can lower the effectiveness of ZDDP. There a few articles in tribological journals that I've read about the subject. However, the guys who make Rotella probably are well-aware of which types of detergents will or won't alter the effectiveness of the ZDDP and I'm sure they stay away from ones that'll result in adverse effects. I wouldn't hesitate to use the Rotella T5 that we analyzed in my car.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: Junky]
#1388080
03/13/13 10:20 PM
03/13/13 10:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
My posts were at no one in particular. Yes, and you did say "some". What my comments are pointed at are statements like this:
"It's been mentioned that the high detergent washes off the ZPPD stuff."
And this:
Detergents affect the surface tension of the oil. When the engine is shut off a high detergent oil will run off surfaces quicker than a low detergent. Picture rain water running off freshly waxed paint compared to clinging like a sheet to unwashed paint."
And this:
"Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP."
With no test data or source (web link) to back up their statements.
Junky, you raise good points, but keep in mind...DELO oils were not engineered for our flat tapped gasoline V8s. Ive spoken directly with several Chevron engineers (I've purchased over a million gallons of DELO 15w40 over the years) who tell me the zinc in their oil is for the punishment that the small end of the rod endures during the uber high compression of a diesel. The detergent is there to keep soot in suspension.
Gasoline engines have different requirements. Yes, DELO oils ARE good, but for our use, I believe there are better answers.
BTW, did you know Chevron DELO is a synthetic blend (at least technically--thank you Castrol)? It just hasn't been marketed that way. It's about to though---DELO XLE ( as opposed to LE) is just about to hit the streets.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1388081
03/14/13 01:27 AM
03/14/13 01:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
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Quote:
Quote:
My posts were at no one in particular. Yes, and you did say "some". What my comments are pointed at are statements like this:
"It's been mentioned that the high detergent washes off the ZPPD stuff."
And this:
Detergents affect the surface tension of the oil. When the engine is shut off a high detergent oil will run off surfaces quicker than a low detergent. Picture rain water running off freshly waxed paint compared to clinging like a sheet to unwashed paint."
And this:
"Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP."
With no test data or source (web link) to back up their statements.
Junky, you raise good points, but keep in mind...DELO oils were not engineered for our flat tapped gasoline V8s. Ive spoken directly with several Chevron engineers (I've purchased over a million gallons of DELO 15w40 over the years) who tell me the zinc in their oil is for the punishment that the small end of the rod endures during the uber high compression of a diesel. The detergent is there to keep soot in suspension.
Gasoline engines have different requirements. Yes, DELO oils ARE good, but for our use, I believe there are better answers.
BTW, did you know Chevron DELO is a synthetic blend (at least technically--thank you Castrol)? It just hasn't been marketed that way. It's about to though---DELO XLE ( as opposed to LE) is just about to hit the streets.
You said: "The detergent is there to keep soot in suspension.".
Exactly, it doesn't wash away the zinc. It has no effect on zinc according to the engineer I spoke with today at Chevron. Yes, there is better motor oils to use and worse. Saying that does not mean that Heavy Duty Motor Oil aka Diesel Oil is bad to run. It's an option. Just like some will only run Shell, or Valvoline, or Chevron and so forth.
It rubs me the wrong way when people come in here and start making statements that are assumptions, or hearsay, or opinion or whatever but state it as fact. Who knows what Joe Gibbs industry really has to say about the subject? No one seems to really know but are ready to tell everyone.
Still no supported test data or sources submitted.
Carry on.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1388082
03/14/13 09:10 AM
03/14/13 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
Quote:
So I hate to hijack this thread but has anyone here ever tested the STP oil treatment for its ZDDP content? It says on the bottle that it contains it and somebody online had emailed them about it and they simply said that "adding 16oz of the STP to 4-5qts modern oil will restore to the ZDDP content to what is was in years past" (paraphrasing).
Has anyone tested this or had any long term experience with this? I am running this as my ZDDP additive in my Charger (street car) and so far, so good. Cam still looks fine after couple hundred miles + break-in.
I would be interested if this is a viable alternative as STP is like $2 a bottle as opposed to $10-15 for the pricier stuff or $10+/qt for the already made quarts. I have no problem shelling out the money for these pricier options if they are needed for a street car. I am not winding my engine past 5000 RPM for any amount of time or really laying on it like a race motor.
Just curious... 
Yes there is a Blackstone or Staveley test floating around somewhere. STP RED came in at JUST under 3000PPM (it was 29xx) and BLUE was about 2000. That means its only good for a SLIGHT bump (about 100PPM) in a crankcase. Do the math. ZDDPlus tested at 71,200ppm (keep in mind its only a 4oz bottle)
I am currently using "Rislone engine oil suppliment with zinc" which supposedly has 15,600ppm and comes in a 11 ounce bottle, available at Oreilly's for $8.50.
Thanks for the information! I was looking for something a bit more reasonable and that I don't have to order and wait for. I went to my local Advace Auto and picked up a container yesterday!
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Re: Calling Junky
[Re: dogdays]
#1388084
03/14/13 04:02 PM
03/14/13 04:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
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Quote:
Junky, follow the link to the Joe Gibbs webpage and see what you think they mean.
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/zinc-vs-detergent
R.
Doesn't say much of anything except for a nice ad for Joe Gibbs products. Lots of broad-brushing. Never comes out and says anything specific.
Only thing they state clearly is:
"Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oils utilize the correct balance of anti-wear additives and detergents, so you don’t need to buy expensive additives to try to “fix” a low zinc (ZDDP) oil."
So, Joe Gibbs' oil is the only motor oil with the correct balance of anti-wear additives and detergents? 
That can be said of any oil company's product if they so want to say it in an ad. Like my oil is better than yours. 
The ad proves absolutely nothing. It's just an ad.
How people can get out of this ad that diesel oils "wash" away zinc is beyond me. 
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Re: Calling Junky
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#1388086
03/14/13 05:24 PM
03/14/13 05:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Detergents don't wash away ZDDP and anyone who says otherwise either doesn't know what they're talking about or is doing a really poor job of trying to explain a chemical process in laymen's terms. Some detergents (and they may not be the ones used in diesel oils like Rotella) can decrease the effectiveness of ZDDP. For example, there's been a study (see link at end of this post) that has shown "conclusively that in the presence of [...] calcium sulfonate [(a detergent)] under sliding conditions, ZDDPs do not form long-chain polyphosphates that have been associated with antiwear action." So detergents can make a difference, but who's to say what detergents are being used in what oils (mostly proprietary information). For the record, I agree with what you're saying Junky, I'm just trying to explain where people might get this whole notion that detergents "wash" away ZDDP. Article abstract: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10402000308982660
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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