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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: kdcarman]
#1388047
03/10/13 03:22 PM
03/10/13 03:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,610
Not2farfromNashville, TN
Rug_Trucker
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,610
Not2farfromNashville, TN
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Does anyone use diesel oil in their classic?
Yep. 15-40 in the Duster, and in the 79 van. I even run the 10-30 semi syn in my 93 Corolla.
10-30 should be fine for most applications. I had run the 15-40 in the others because I got a killer buy on it for the Cummins which takes 3 gallons.
Thanks for this - when you read the ZDDPlus literature they warn against using diesel oil because of the detergents in the oil. 
I would hate to have a clean engine! I can't see buying all these expensive oils and additives for the street. At 150K regular car 10-30 Valvoline had kept my van engine really clean. Mostly highway miles.
Maybe the ZDDP in the Rotella will clog the converters on our '06 Caravan, and on my Corolla? I doubt it. I put 500 miles a week on the Corolla. Oil changes every 5-6K. Been doing that since November 2011. Next oil change is due at 193K. Engine is clean. Oil looks great when I change it.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: kdcarman]
#1388048
03/10/13 04:28 PM
03/10/13 04:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
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Quote:
Does anyone use diesel oil in their classic?
Sure do. Shell Rotella T 15w40 for years, but I've switched to Delo 400 LE 15w40 with 1350 ppm zinc. I add about a half bottle of Red Line zinc additive per oil change for good measure. Last time I had the engine open, about 2 years ago, it looked like new.
Delo 400 LE is an "all fleet motor oil". Meaning gas engines too.
PS, I also mix avgas with pump gas for the lead to lube the valves. 2.5 gals of avgas to 8 gals of pump gas. I also run "clear" premium gas when I can.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#1388052
03/10/13 05:38 PM
03/10/13 05:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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I knew about the Brad Penn four years ago ! 
Yes, but results obtained using inductively coupled plasma atomic emission spectroscopy aren't nearly as accurate as NAA. 
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1388054
03/10/13 06:34 PM
03/10/13 06:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.
R.
So there is the first comment I've heard about the effectiveness of the ZDDP. And indication that a high number on a chemical test may night correlate with the effectiveness (actual use).
Here's a novel thought...How about get tests on the actual Extreme Pressure (EP) wear? If you are worrying about cam lifter wear, test for that wear. Who cares what chemicals are in it, see if it works!
There have been literally thousands of tests done that have shown that ZDDP is an effective anti-wear oil additive. While there are certainly many different factors other than ZDDP-content that will effect wear, the zinc content was something that we could easily determine with ~1% uncertainties using NAA. EP tests are notorious for high uncertainties.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 1968RR]
#1388055
03/10/13 06:54 PM
03/10/13 06:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
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Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.
R.
So there is the first comment I've heard about the effectiveness of the ZDDP. And indication that a high number on a chemical test may night correlate with the effectiveness (actual use).
Here's a novel thought...How about get tests on the actual Extreme Pressure (EP) wear? If you are worrying about cam lifter wear, test for that wear. Who cares what chemicals are in it, see if it works!
There have been literally thousands of tests done that have shown that ZDDP is an effective anti-wear oil additive. While there are certainly many different factors other than ZDDP-content that will effect wear, the zinc content was something that we could easily determine with ~1% uncertainties using NAA. EP tests are notorious for high uncertainties.
ZDDP content is easy to determine, but what about measuring the different factors other than ZDDP contant that will effect wear.
I sounds like ZDDP is not 100% resistant to other things in the oil? Gibbs says detergents effect ZDDP anti wear capability. So can we measure how much effect this has on the ZDDP in a certain oil?
Is ZDDP the only known anti wear additive?
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: dogdays]
#1388056
03/10/13 07:08 PM
03/10/13 07:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
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Quote:
Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.
R.
Then why is it that so many users of diesel oils have no problems. Guys, many guys over on the race forum use 15W40 "diesel" HD engine oils and have no problems. Is it only Joe Gibbs that says this? If so, maybe to help their sales? Don't you think if this was a fact that it would be well known? But, yet it isn't. Just saying.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: Junky]
#1388058
03/10/13 07:25 PM
03/10/13 07:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Some detergents can have effects on the ability of ZDDP to act as an anti-wear agent. The problem is that the types of detergents used in specific brands is usually proprietary. Most race oils (Brad Penn, some Valvoline, others) are careful not to use high levels of detergents that will off-set the benefits of ZDDP.
ZDDP certainly isn't the only anti-wear compound in motor oils, but it is one of the few with an element with a nice NAA signature (zinc). It's hard to tell ones with hydrogen, carbon, etc. from the oil itself.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: Junky]
#1388059
03/10/13 08:08 PM
03/10/13 08:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
Joe Gibbs is another company that says the ultra-high detergent levels in Diesel oils harm the effectiveness of the ZDDP.
R.
Then why is it that so many users of diesel oils have no problems. Guys, many guys over on the race forum use 15W40 "diesel" HD engine oils and have no problems. Is it only Joe Gibbs that says this? If so, maybe to help their sales? Don't you think if this was a fact that it would be well known? But, yet it isn't. Just saying.
Actually it IS talked about, and has been for years. To me high detergent is a MINOR issue. Low zinc/phosphorus is a MAJOR issue. To answer your main question, DELO oils are better than standard oils, but they are not the best choice. They do work, but if the detergent level was lower they would be even better.
I've used them in the past, but no more. I put a zddp additive into standard valvoline SM rated oil.
Last edited by Pacnorthcuda; 03/10/13 08:23 PM.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1388060
03/10/13 08:29 PM
03/10/13 08:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,073
Benton, IL.
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Over on another forum they are talking about Valvoline VR1 Racing being on sale at O'Reilly's. And they said something about the Racing VR1 being discontinued.
There was a response that the biggest difference between the VR1s was that the Racing did not have the level of detergents that the other had. If I can find it again, I will post Valvoline's answer about the detergent levels.
Master, again and still
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 1968RR]
#1388061
03/11/13 01:16 PM
03/11/13 01:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
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Quote:
Some detergents can have effects on the ability of ZDDP to act as an anti-wear agent. The problem is that the types of detergents used in specific brands is usually proprietary. Most race oils (Brad Penn, some Valvoline, others) are careful not to use high levels of detergents that will off-set the benefits of ZDDP.
ZDDP certainly isn't the only anti-wear compound in motor oils, but it is one of the few with an element with a nice NAA signature (zinc). It's hard to tell ones with hydrogen, carbon, etc. from the oil itself.
I guess I'm the kind of person that would like to see factual data supporting the alleged problem with high detergents breaking down the effect of zinc. I've been running the "diesel" oils now for 13 years without a problem. That's with two new cams which I changed only for performance, not due to failure.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: Rug_Trucker]
#1388063
03/12/13 09:24 AM
03/12/13 09:24 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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So I hate to hijack this thread but has anyone here ever tested the STP oil treatment for its ZDDP content? It says on the bottle that it contains it and somebody online had emailed them about it and they simply said that "adding 16oz of the STP to 4-5qts modern oil will restore to the ZDDP content to what is was in years past" (paraphrasing). Has anyone tested this or had any long term experience with this? I am running this as my ZDDP additive in my Charger (street car) and so far, so good. Cam still looks fine after couple hundred miles + break-in. I would be interested if this is a viable alternative as STP is like $2 a bottle as opposed to $10-15 for the pricier stuff or $10+/qt for the already made quarts. I have no problem shelling out the money for these pricier options if they are needed for a street car. I am not winding my engine past 5000 RPM for any amount of time or really laying on it like a race motor. Just curious... 
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: 1968RR]
#1388065
03/12/13 04:16 PM
03/12/13 04:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,730
541 slobovia
A990
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,730
541 slobovia
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Quote:
Some detergents can have effects on the ability of ZDDP to act as an anti-wear agent. The problem is that the types of detergents used in specific brands is usually proprietary. Most race oils (Brad Penn, some Valvoline, others) are careful not to use high levels of detergents that will off-set the benefits of ZDDP.
ZDDP certainly isn't the only anti-wear compound in motor oils, but it is one of the few with an element with a nice NAA signature (zinc). It's hard to tell ones with hydrogen, carbon, etc. from the oil itself.
Since detergent is not good, could a quart of 30w be used with detergent oil to knock down the detergent, and retain the ZDDP?
This is a great thread.
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Re: ZDDP oil analysis results
[Re: cjskotni]
#1388066
03/12/13 04:20 PM
03/12/13 04:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,822
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
So I hate to hijack this thread but has anyone here ever tested the STP oil treatment for its ZDDP content? It says on the bottle that it contains it and somebody online had emailed them about it and they simply said that "adding 16oz of the STP to 4-5qts modern oil will restore to the ZDDP content to what is was in years past" (paraphrasing).
Has anyone tested this or had any long term experience with this? I am running this as my ZDDP additive in my Charger (street car) and so far, so good. Cam still looks fine after couple hundred miles + break-in.
I would be interested if this is a viable alternative as STP is like $2 a bottle as opposed to $10-15 for the pricier stuff or $10+/qt for the already made quarts. I have no problem shelling out the money for these pricier options if they are needed for a street car. I am not winding my engine past 5000 RPM for any amount of time or really laying on it like a race motor.
Just curious...
Yes there is a Blackstone or Staveley test floating around somewhere. STP RED came in at JUST under 3000PPM (it was 29xx) and BLUE was about 2000. That means its only good for a SLIGHT bump (about 100PPM) in a crankcase. Do the math. ZDDPlus tested at 71,200ppm (keep in mind its only a 4oz bottle)
I am currently using "Rislone engine oil suppliment with zinc" which supposedly has 15,600ppm and comes in a 11 ounce bottle, available at Oreilly's for $8.50.
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