help me build a engine!
#1371009
01/17/13 10:13 AM
01/17/13 10:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491 Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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My intentions are for daily driving and autox. So looking for strong bottom end and mid range torque. I want to be around 500hp/500torque since its mostly for street, looking for realiablity. The Pump gas around here is 91octane so I would like to stick around a compression ratio that can run this.
Things I have: its a 4 speed car with 3:55 gears with manual brakes headers I have have 1 3/4" primaries I have 383 and 400 block I have a performer rpm intake, mp performance water pump and housing milodon road race pan milodon oil pump 750 holly DP 650 edelebrock carb march pullys mallory uniite distributor firecore plug wires Rev-N-nator electronic box I'll be sticking with the low deck for reduced weight and works with my air grabber setup, and I have some of the parts already
1)I have seen the 470 and 451 kits available is there a difference in price to build if the kits are the same price? or should i go with a different combo/setup to get around the hp/torque i need? the more money saved the better!
2)looking at heads as well, looking at bare units and just buying the components I need to mactch the cam. Would you reccomend the eddy rpms or the stealths?
3)cam choices - new to this dept but have an idea of what i want. Would like to get a hydraulic flat tappet for price and less constant adjusting needed. Would like to get something with a rough idle (I have manual brakes so I don't care about vaccum)with a rpm range from 1800/2000-6000. 4)Looking at ductile iron rockers (heard they are more dependable on the street than aluminum) isky no longer makes them who do you reccomend?
Sorry for the long questions - just trying to get this build done right the first time!
Last edited by dangina; 01/17/13 10:15 AM.
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: dangina]
#1371012
01/17/13 10:52 AM
01/17/13 10:52 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 716 Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 716
Central TEXAS!!!!
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If it was me, for the same money and the same amount of work I would build a 512. 4.25 stroke, 6.53 rods and 1.32 compression height pistons in a 400 block. All of this is off the shelf parts and makes for a sweet engine.
Joe
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: dangina]
#1371014
01/17/13 11:13 AM
01/17/13 11:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167 maryland
74yellowduster
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
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Quote:
My intentions are for daily driving and autox. So looking for strong bottom end and mid range torque. I want to be around 500hp/500torque since its mostly for street, looking for realiablity. The Pump gas around here is 91octane so I would like to stick around a compression ratio that can run this.
Things I have: its a 4 speed car with 3:55 gears with manual brakes - --- OK but maybe 3.73's for autox? headers I have have 1 3/4" primaries --- OK I have 383 and 400 block 400 block is stronger, depending on the casting numbers even than a 440 block. use the FORGED 383 crank if you have one or get one. internally balanced + forged crank is better in the long run. then your flywheel and damper will be neutral balanced as well.
I have a performer rpm intake, - OK mp performance water pump and housing - OK milodon road race pan - OK milodon oil pump - OK 750 holly DP OK great choick if clean / rebuilt 650 edelebrock carb march pullys
--- ditch these below ----- sell and replace mallory uniite distributor firecore plug wires Rev-N-nator electronic box --- get rid of above ---
get an MSD 8386 - has ign built in, very dependable unit. easy to wire, requires no e-box at all
I'll be sticking with the low deck for reduced weight and works with my air grabber setup, and I have some of the parts already GOOD
1)I have seen the 470 and 451 kits available is there a difference in price to build if the kits are the same price? or should i go with a different combo/setup to get around the hp/torque i need? the more money saved the better! beware! if you get an eagle/scat crank kit make sure to have the crank blueprinted before you even install it. some of them are machined improperly from the factory with the ends of the journals rounded because of factory tooling... edges not cut sharply at the edges of the journals. dont just bolt in one of these cranks and try to run it. it has to be checked thoroughly. after that they will work fine.
2)looking at heads as well, looking at bare units and just buying the components I need to mactch the cam. Would you reccomend the eddy rpms or the stealths? my 400 is almost done gettting dyno'ed this week or next... here is what i went with. eddy rpms have the block zero decked first with KB240 pistons (if you dont do a stroker) then have the heads milled slightly to give you 10:1 comp ratio. should be about 500hp with my cam on street gas
3)cam choices - new to this dept but have an idea of what i want. Would like to get a hydraulic flat tappet for price and less constant adjusting needed. Would like to get something with a rough idle (I have manual brakes so I don't care about vaccum)with a rpm range from 1800/2000-6000. i'm just using an eddy rpm, however, if you have a forged crank and good oiling / rockers (i got harland sharp - use HV oil pump with these rockers by the way) ... you can go with a solid lifter setup which will go higher rpm's than hydraulics without valve float problems. hydraulic lifters if you go over about 6500 rpms they will float, especially since most are chinese now. if you plan on 7k rpms + you want solid lifters minimum or better yet a roller setup 4)Looking at ductile iron rockers (heard they are more dependable on the street than aluminum) isky no longer makes them who do you reccomend? get the good harland sharp set (not the new cheapy sets either) - just my opinion
Sorry for the long questions - just trying to get this build done right the first time!
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1371015
01/17/13 12:16 PM
01/17/13 12:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491 Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
fwiw a roller camshaft has alot wider rpm range, and isn't nearly as lazy off the bottom, which would help you out of corners. I would think more cubes would be better too, as the extra torque will help out of corners also. There is a low deck 470 crank I seen in the for sale section for 500 bucks I think.
I saw that crank its says its a 3.75 crank offset to 3.90, what does that mean? why would't the guy just get the 3.90 crank? I looked at roller cams and with lifters your close to the 1grand mark. Are they worth the extra money? They're more than double of all the other types of cams/lifters.
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A rough idle is over-rated. Never understood the fascination with that. Get a cam that will work. Nothing better than a stock idle and balls out performance. I'd call and have a custom cam ground for your application. If you want an off the shelf cam the VooDoo 533 is probably your best option. The 472 is a good way to go. They seem to run strong and are reliable. The 750DP would be best, intake is a good one as well.
I like the rough idle sound? i dunno. just grew up with it i guess. I was thinking of a custom grind, who would you reccomend? racer brown? hughes? comp?
Quote:
If it was me, for the same money and the same amount of work I would build a 512. 4.25 stroke, 6.53 rods and 1.32 compression height pistons in a 400 block. All of this is off the shelf parts and makes for a sweet engine.
Joe
Wouldn't the 512 be overkill for what I'm doing with the car?
thanks again guys for the advice!
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: dangina]
#1371016
01/17/13 12:35 PM
01/17/13 12:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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The rough idle has a purpose ... thats a tight LSA cam... which has more over lap.. the over lap is what you hear and it makes more low end cyl pressure which makes torque... for the HP and TQ you want to make, your headers are too small, most likely you would need 2" but maybe a 1 7/8 would work is the revs are low enough... I'll let the other tell you what you need for your goals.. but weed out some of the stuff you read
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1371018
01/17/13 12:52 PM
01/17/13 12:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646 Ontario,Canada
firefighter3931
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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Hey Dan Your goals are easily achievable -470 rotating assembly with 10:1 compression -MP 452 aluminum heads or RPM's (The 452's will work with your existing headers which are fine at that power level) -Comp XS282S solid flat tappet cam (nitrided) -EDM oiling lifters -Crane or Isky Ductile iron rockers/Chromemoly pushrods *the rest looks fine This combo should make 525hp/550tq all day long with a big fat torque curve, run on pump gas and have a nice lopey idle Ron Ps. Here is a dyno sheet on one I helped with : 448ci RB build with RPM heads (unported) using the XS282S Comp solid. Runs fine on pump gas, idles at 850rpm with a nice rumpity idle and will boil the tires at will !
Last edited by firefighter3931; 01/17/13 01:04 PM.
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: dangina]
#1371019
01/17/13 01:34 PM
01/17/13 01:34 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Also... being its a street car and a stick, build torque forget about the HP... build all the torque you can.. a bigger ci engine normally makes torque at a lower rpm so you dont have to spin it hard and if you have the torque you have plenty of gear for the street... the stick helps also since you can take off at any rpm you wish
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: dangina]
#1371020
01/17/13 04:07 PM
01/17/13 04:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,315 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,315
Bend,OR USA
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The limiting factor on making power is usually the traction, if it spins the tires your going no where fast That being said with a decent to good set of tires I would put the biggest C,I, motor I could afford, it is a lot easier to drive a car with your right foot to control the pwer that it is to stick your arm out the window to help make power by pedaling your arm in the wind when you don't make enough power If it was me I would build a 511 or 512 out of the 400 block, I have several of those size motors and they flat rock Another option is a 505 C.I. 435 bore with a 4.250 stroke with BB Chevy rod journals, I like and use long rods, 6.8 and 6.7 long No matter what C.I. you decide to build make sure and use the BB Chevy rod journal sizes, 2.200 and a long rod The Edelbrock heads flow more air out of the box so comapre costs and decide. On the cam and headers I wouuld go big on the headers and exhaust, 2.0 inch primarys, 3.5 inch collectors and three inch exhaust to three inch in and out muffs I like the Magnaflow 14x7 x3 inch ovals, basically straight through and fairly quiet at idle and part thtrottle driving, not so at WOT On the cam I would, and have use the Comp Cams XL-HL cams, either the XE-285-HL or the bigger XE-295-HL, installed them 4 degrees advance or a liitle more On the rockers a lot of the ductile iron rockers won't be the advertised ratio, usually less when checked at the retainers I would, if you can afford it, buy the good Harland Sharp full roller aluminum rocker arms, not the cheaper extruded aluminum non roller shaft ones they now offer Make the compression ratio between 10.0 to 1 and 10.75 to 1 depending on the elevation you run the car in, in higher elevation run more compression Good luck
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: dangina]
#1371022
01/17/13 07:05 PM
01/17/13 07:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,098 A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,098
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
There is a low deck 470 crank I seen in the for sale section for 500 bucks I think.
I saw that crank its says its a 3.75 crank offset to 3.90, what does that mean? why would't the guy just get the 3.90 crank?
The person probably got a good deal on the 3.75 stroke crank and/or changed their mind. the eagle 3.895 stroke crank I have started life as a .010/.010 3.75 stroke 440 crank that was cut down to 2.200 rod sized and stroked out and the mains cut down to fit a low deck. I did that because it was done for free , otherwise I would have bought one that was already made that way.
You need to watch out for air cleaner clearance wit hyour air grabber setup using anything other than a stock intake with a stock unmodified air cleaner assembly , you WILL have to modify it using the RPM intake.
Build a 470 , use 1 7/8 headers if possible
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: firefighter3931]
#1371023
01/17/13 07:45 PM
01/17/13 07:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491 Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Hey Dan
Your goals are easily achievable
-470 rotating assembly with 10:1 compression -MP 452 aluminum heads or RPM's (The 452's will work with your existing headers which are fine at that power level) -Comp XS282S solid flat tappet cam (nitrided) -EDM oiling lifters -Crane or Isky Ductile iron rockers/Chromemoly pushrods
*the rest looks fine
This combo should make 525hp/550tq all day long with a big fat torque curve, run on pump gas and have a nice lopey idle
Ron
Ps. Here is a dyno sheet on one I helped with : 448ci RB build with RPM heads (unported) using the XS282S Comp solid. Runs fine on pump gas, idles at 850rpm with a nice rumpity idle and will boil the tires at will !
Your the third person I have read that have used this cam - the other two were for 451 builds. Theye swear by them. Its in my possible category list! Thanks for posting the numbers!
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Also... being its a street car and a stick, build torque forget about the HP... build all the torque you can.. a bigger ci engine normally makes torque at a lower rpm so you dont have to spin it hard and if you have the torque you have plenty of gear for the street... the stick helps also since you can take off at any rpm you wish
I'm addicted to torque the more the better!
Quote:
The limiting factor on making power is usually the traction, if it spins the tires your going no where fast That being said with a decent to good set of tires I would put the biggest C,I, motor I could afford, it is a lot easier to drive a car with your right foot to control the pwer that it is to stick your arm out the window to help make power by pedaling your arm in the wind when you don't make enough power If it was me I would build a 511 or 512 out of the 400 block, I have several of those size motors and they flat rock Another option is a 505 C.I. 435 bore with a 4.250 stroke with BB Chevy rod journals, I like and use long rods, 6.8 and 6.7 long No matter what C.I. you decide to build make sure and use the BB Chevy rod journal sizes, 2.200 and a long rod The Edelbrock heads flow more air out of the box so comapre costs and decide. On the cam and headers I wouuld go big on the headers and exhaust, 2.0 inch primarys, 3.5 inch collectors and three inch exhaust to three inch in and out muffs I like the Magnaflow 14x7 x3 inch ovals, basically straight through and fairly quiet at idle and part thtrottle driving, not so at WOT On the cam I would, and have use the Comp Cams XL-HL cams, either the XE-285-HL or the bigger XE-295-HL, installed them 4 degrees advance or a liitle more On the rockers a lot of the ductile iron rockers won't be the advertised ratio, usually less when checked at the retainers I would, if you can afford it, buy the good Harland Sharp full roller aluminum rocker arms, not the cheaper extruded aluminum non roller shaft ones they now offer Make the compression ratio between 10.0 to 1 and 10.75 to 1 depending on the elevation you run the car in, in higher elevation run more compression Good luck
according to google the elevation here in lethbridge is 3048 ft. or 900m
Quote:
If it was me, for the same money and the same amount of work I would build a 512. 4.25 stroke, 6.53 rods and 1.32 compression height pistons in a 400 block. All of this is off the shelf parts and makes for a sweet engine.
Joe
Can I ask you what you mean by “daily driver”? Are you going to drive this in bad weather or is it just going to hit the streets on nice weekends? If it’s a weekend driver then, no it’s not overkill, you will have way too much fun. Plus, when/if you decide to go faster just change the top end, because the short block is already good to go. Like I said earlier, it’s the exact same money to build a 512 if you are starting from scratch. In fact it’s even the SAME pistons used in both of the kits you mention.
Joe
PS I think everyone should own a 500+ CI engine at least once in their life.
When I say daily driver I mean from spring-fall weather permitting. Going to work and having fun on weekends. Some years our seasons are cut short. I want to drive this runner as much as possible. Why buy a new car and get todays garbage when you can drive an old mopar that brings on a grin from ear to ear?!
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You need to watch out for air cleaner clearance wit hyour air grabber setup using anything other than a stock intake with a stock unmodified air cleaner assembly , you WILL have to modify it using the RPM intake.
Build a 470 , use 1 7/8 headers if possible
i know i will have to mod the air cleaner about an 1" I was wondering if you are using the rpm heads, does it raise the deck height even more? I'm already gonna have to modify the airgrabber about a 1" and thats pushing the limit, I don't know if I'll be able to modify it if its more than that,
I'm gonna stick with the headers and exhaust for now, they are brand new in the box - bought them when I was gonna build a mild engine, and if i don't like the power i can always go to a bigger exhaust down the road.
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1371025
01/17/13 09:52 PM
01/17/13 09:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,021 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,021
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Quote:
Also... being its a street car and a stick, build torque forget about the HP... build all the torque you can.. a bigger ci engine normally makes torque at a lower rpm so you dont have to spin it hard and if you have the torque you have plenty of gear for the street... the stick helps also since you can take off at any rpm you wish
Spot on in my opinion. You can't put too many cubes in a 400 block for me, so the 512 cube package, 4.25 stroke 4.375 bore is the best choice due to the extra torque you will have to work with. Easy 500 hp with those cubes and a set of Eddy RPM heads, a performer rpm intake and a 750 or 850 carb, which ever will build the best torque curve from 2,000 rpm to 5500 rpm. I am betting a set of 42 inch, 1 7/8headers will work about the best.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: Twostick]
#1371026
01/17/13 10:55 PM
01/17/13 10:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491 Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Build a 9:1 400 base aluminum head 496 and you can make your goals on 87 regular. Not sure if this will be the hot set up for an autoX but if compared to an all iron SB maybe not so bad.
My 440 based 493 came in at 8.97:1 and it makes 500hp/600ft/lbs all done by 5500 and it does fine on regular. Over 500 ft/lbs from 2000 to the end.
Kevin
do you have the build specs for this? I know its a loaded question but what all determines compression? i know your piston and heads help but I would love to get the numbers I want with low compression and running on 87 or 89 octane:)
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: dangina]
#1371027
01/18/13 12:57 AM
01/18/13 12:57 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,570 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,570
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Quote:
Quote:
Build a 9:1 400 base aluminum head 496 and you can make your goals on 87 regular. Not sure if this will be the hot set up for an autoX but if compared to an all iron SB maybe not so bad.
My 440 based 493 came in at 8.97:1 and it makes 500hp/600ft/lbs all done by 5500 and it does fine on regular. Over 500 ft/lbs from 2000 to the end.
Kevin
do you have the build specs for this? I know its a loaded question but what all determines compression? i know your piston and heads help but I would love to get the numbers I want with low compression and running on 87 or 89 octane:)
.030 over 440 with a 440Source 4.15 stroke kit. Zero deck Ross pistons with IIRC a 34cc dish. OOTB RPM heads with the valve job fixed. MP509 cam with 1.7 rockers. M1 single plane Holley 950 Commander Pro TBI EFI. 36 deg timing all in by 2000ish.
Kevin
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Re: help me build a engine!
[Re: dangina]
#1371028
01/18/13 05:07 AM
01/18/13 05:07 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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The stroker kits are pretty much all the same cost, and stronger than stock cranks and rods.
For what your doing, the 511 (4.25" stroke) stroker kit with 24cc dished pistons and Edelbrock RPM (84cc) heads, with zero deck and 0.040" head gasket results in 9.88:1 compression. The dish on the pistons still leaves a good quench area, and the compression is good for pump gas with the cams you will be looking at (likely in the 240 @ 0.050" range.) Maybe Comp XE285HL? for good low/midrange power, good for a daily driver, but should have a noticable idle, but not choppy like a race cam.
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