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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Diablo]
#1350262
12/13/12 11:35 PM
12/13/12 11:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
B1-O vs the 600-13x are truly apple to oranges.
Apples to a closer Apple would be the the 600-13 VS the B1-TS heads both on a 4.840 bore spacing both can have the 2.45 Int valve.... The TS will be on the upper hand for sure in that case.
Really what everyone wants in a head for nothing. A heads that flowed 450+cfm that you can put your 906 rocker gear and valves in.....
We might be at a disadvantage in many ways but when it comes down to it, you say a Horsepower range you want your engine in and there is a head that will do it. Cost is another thing but the heads are there. Even if some are dinosaurs. (Even if most are dinosaurs)
I forgot who made the list of heads here on the post but he missed a few (PSO, Brewer, TS) with even more overlapping hp possibilities and then he didn't mention any of the Hemi heads out there.
True, but the ones he mentioned were pretty close to the horsepower levels' he mentioned...maybe a bit low but not by much. Diablo, you're just more advanced than most if us. Or at least more willing to spend money to meet your goals, and know what it costs. Oh well, maybe some day.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Chris'sBarracuda]
#1350264
12/14/12 12:49 AM
12/14/12 12:49 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 614
new jersey
gillman34
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 614
new jersey
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Quote:
Quote:
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Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes.
I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some fairly serious reliability issues with them. As in engine killing reliability issues. three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I don't have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal.
As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install.
As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there.
Just my
Can you elaborate on the engine killing reliability issues with the Predator heads?
This is the first time I'm hearing about this.
Thanks
As far as reliability, not sure, but I also know who Al is speaking of.. 
However, didn't Elvis have serious issues with these at Dragweek??
Has his car ever gone any faster than it did with the 572-13 set up??
If so, by how much?? A tenth?? Seems like a lot of money for that little bit..
Also, how old are the Predator heads?? First version was NRC, and they have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years old too. 
I would bet that if Elvis had put a set of B1MC's on his ride he would have gone the fastest.. IMO.. 
That would be interesting to see since he has used both the 572-13's and the Predators.. 
Maybe just take what we have and put them in the hands of guys with different ideas and see what they come up with.. 
Chris... 
To answer the OP's original question, they dont move enough air without serious work,that's why there is the B1 PSO.
Eddie's issues were never directly related to the Predator head.
He had a lifter come apart and broke a valve,perhaps Sixpackgut can relive his Dragweek experience with Eddie as he was there thru the whole trip.His thread on that was hilarious!!!!
For what it's worth Eddie has been in the 7's with that engine,on pump gas with spray and many street miles.The 572-13 engine got him low 8's, He really does drive that car all over,I can personally attest to that.
As far as age goes,the current moved exhaust valve/improved valve train geometry design has been out since 2006.They are the only canted/splayed valve head for BB Mopar and move more air than all the others except the Stage V Millennium Hemi and the Hemi 99.
I have owned and raced them all,from chapman/bulldogs to b1mc's and each one has it's place in the progression of engine size.You would'nt put a set of 906's on a 655" engine and expect it to make power would you? The heads are just one piece of the puzzle,just like cam or converter or gear or tire size etc, you guy's get my point.
Before I get dismissed as the "Predator Guy" I have and do sell and install other heads besides Predators,If your combo will benefit from 440-1's than that is what I will recommend.If PSO's are what you need,I'm sending you to Chuck and Pete,and so on.
Each head out there has it's place in the equation,that's why it's important to talk to an experienced engine builder before you make any decisions to buy a particular head,bigger is not always better.Rant off,you may now go back to your regulary scheduled programming.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: gillman34]
#1350265
12/14/12 01:08 AM
12/14/12 01:08 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
B1Fish540
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
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thats a cool car pittsburgracer (and fast!) unfortunately, i dont think we will see Scott comment on this thread(about the idea they bring down the cost/produce more.)Koffel's have all the business they want, IMHO. They dont want to expand. i.e., you wont see them becoming another Indy with zillions of head options. I love the koffels and what they have done for mopar, that's enough for me.  but i would like to see someone make Brewer heads again..
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: gillman34]
#1350266
12/14/12 01:18 AM
12/14/12 01:18 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 698
Alberta Canada
Edge
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 698
Alberta Canada
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Was not trying to list every wedge head in my earlier post, but I will throw in a few more
wedge heads.
450-575 906 516 and countless others
550-650 Edelbrocks
600-700 Stage VI
650-750 SR's or B1BS
700-800 440-1
800-900 572-13
850-950 B1 original
850-1000 Zeeker
850-1000 B1-MC
900-1150 B1-PSO
950-1200 Predator
950-1200 Indy 600-13X
950-1250 B1-TS
Some may consider the estimates on the low side but I prefer the term conservative.
76 Duster
work in progress
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1350269
12/14/12 11:27 AM
12/14/12 11:27 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
7 second Indy headed NA (no adder) engine.
I sure would like to hear more about this ride.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: go green]
#1350270
12/14/12 01:26 PM
12/14/12 01:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 395
campbell river B.C
mopartoby
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 395
campbell river B.C
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Quote:
20 plus year old heads . If you have to ask then you are stuck in a time warp feeding the dated zombie Mopar hoard. I find it way more offencive that we don't have any more heads to chose from in the past 10 years . The B1 heads should be parked right next to the MC hammer pants.
Like the canted valve head design is something new?
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: mopartoby]
#1350271
12/14/12 01:46 PM
12/14/12 01:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,813
Blue Ridge, VA
Plumb Wired
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,813
Blue Ridge, VA
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Some good info here for me the BB newbie.
By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo?
RIP Monte Smith
aka: OutlawFish
'98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: gillman34]
#1350273
12/14/12 02:13 PM
12/14/12 02:13 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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Quote:
Quote:
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Quote:
Well I am sure I will get beat over the head with this one but here goes.
I am still very much on the fence about the Predator deal. They show great potential for sure as the best available head other than the 99 stuff. However everyone I know personally that has one has had some fairly serious reliability issues with them. As in engine killing reliability issues. three of those came from big name Mopar shops. I have a set on the shelf and we have not built anything with them yet. Not so much due to others reliability issues, although that is certainly a concern but more I don't have a car to put one in yet. I also understand there are a number of them out there running really hard. For me my current B1MC runs fine and is plenty for the car I have. we certainly have some left on the table with my current car as far as all out racing is concerned. If I ever get a light car we will look much harder at the Predator deal.
As for th B1 points. Do yo uguys really think a shelf piston and headers will help?? I agree with the marketing plan that has not been the strongest and dont see that changing. These heads have been around OVER 20 years and they still are not very plentiful. So what does one think a set of B1 shelf headers will run ya?? My guess is TTI prices or better due to lack of sales. So why bother for a set of headers that will at best be a compromise. For a few hundred more you can get a much better performing piece that actually fits whatever chassis it is in. Not something you have to dent, move, curse or disassemble most of the car to install.
As for the need for bigger strokers. I will provide a little bit different perspective. Being a .90/super class raer there is a definite need for them here. As much as you all HATE throttle stop racing in this world MPH is king pretty much. Thus the need for these types of RELIABLE decent power strokers. Reliability and repeatability are the keys here. I have a 1050+hp BB Mopar that we rarely have to do anything to. I have not even set the lash this year, just checked it. Chenge the oil occasionally and throw in a set of plugs each year along with a set of valvesprings for good measure. One of my BIG hesitations with the Predator deal is this concern. While slower MPH can and do win here if you look hard you will see the big MPH cars seem to have an advantage, whether perceived or real it is there.
Just my
Can you elaborate on the engine killing reliability issues with the Predator heads?
This is the first time I'm hearing about this.
Thanks
As far as reliability, not sure, but I also know who Al is speaking of..
However, didn't Elvis have serious issues with these at Dragweek??
Has his car ever gone any faster than it did with the 572-13 set up??
If so, by how much?? A tenth?? Seems like a lot of money for that little bit..
Also, how old are the Predator heads?? First version was NRC, and they have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years old too.
I would bet that if Elvis had put a set of B1MC's on his ride he would have gone the fastest.. IMO..
That would be interesting to see since he has used both the 572-13's and the Predators..
Maybe just take what we have and put them in the hands of guys with different ideas and see what they come up with..
Chris...
To answer the OP's original question, they dont move enough air without serious work,that's why there is the B1 PSO.
Eddie's issues were never directly related to the Predator head.
He had a lifter come apart and broke a valve,perhaps Sixpackgut can relive his Dragweek experience with Eddie as he was there thru the whole trip.His thread on that was hilarious!!!!
For what it's worth Eddie has been in the 7's with that engine,on pump gas with spray and many street miles.The 572-13 engine got him low 8's, He really does drive that car all over,I can personally attest to that.
As far as age goes,the current moved exhaust valve/improved valve train geometry design has been out since 2006.They are the only canted/splayed valve head for BB Mopar and move more air than all the others except the Stage V Millennium Hemi and the Hemi 99.
I have owned and raced them all,from chapman/bulldogs to b1mc's and each one has it's place in the progression of engine size.You would'nt put a set of 906's on a 655" engine and expect it to make power would you? The heads are just one piece of the puzzle,just like cam or converter or gear or tire size etc, you guy's get my point.
Before I get dismissed as the "Predator Guy" I have and do sell and install other heads besides Predators,If your combo will benefit from 440-1's than that is what I will recommend.If PSO's are what you need,I'm sending you to Chuck and Pete,and so on.
Each head out there has it's place in the equation,that's why it's important to talk to an experienced engine builder before you make any decisions to buy a particular head,bigger is not always better.Rant off,you may now go back to your regulary scheduled programming.
the problem we had in 08 stemmed from overheating issues. as the engine got hotter and hotter the lash kept growing and then would start eating lifters. what we found out at the end of the week was that for some reason, whether it was the head gasket or the head, the coolant holes at the ends of the heads were badly misalighned.
I know that after Eddie fixed the coolant hole problems there were no more problems.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1350275
12/14/12 03:05 PM
12/14/12 03:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 577
Arkansas
Adrielp
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 577
Arkansas
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Quote:
Quote:
Some good info here for me the BB newbie.
By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo?
Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking
And thats how innovation happens. In designing a new cylinder head, I attempted to keep things conventional with the standard Wedge port configuration but I could never get the intake volume I wanted or the port size. When I changed the configuration all together to a EIEIEIEI, it removed a lot of those restrictions. If anyone ever sits down and for a second and considers how could I improve this design, you will find out all the wrong things that were initially done that need to be solved. I can tell you now, the one thing I would like to change is the intake lifter spacing in the BBM, it sucks! Anyway, when you design this stuff, you really have to be a free thinker and put what works into a new design that doesn't really on whats been done in the past. There is no reason for the mopar faithful to be waiting on the 2013 version of a 906, it limits what can be done with the cylinder head all together.
Also, I saw that some people were talking about valve length and keeping the same rocker. Keep in mind that if you are trying to put the valve axes in the center of the cylinder bore, that longer valves shorten the rocker arm. It makes it really hard to keep the same rocker but with the performance gains your getting, a newer rocker arm would be added security in my opinion.
PS: I also hate the fact that no one has done a 5, 5.2, or 5.3 version of anything mopar besides a KAASE one off and a new blown AJPE/BAE type hemi head. This thinking in terms of innovation is frustrating. I'm 25 and I have no market of heads to look forward to if this type of thinking remains. I'm just glad I was dumb enough to attempt a design of my own.
Check out the photo below and flame away (Its pretty conventional right!).
Last edited by Adrielp; 12/14/12 03:06 PM.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Plumb Wired]
#1350277
12/14/12 04:38 PM
12/14/12 04:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Some good info here for me the BB newbie.
By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo?
Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking
If I ever decide to try and rotate the earth I will have a Sonny's Hemi. Plus Sonny's is only about 30 minutes from me! But for now I guess I'll just have to use this B1-MC junk. 
If you have the cash to buy it and maintain it, that's the way to go. You'll only need a wheel barrow full of $100 bills, a big one.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Plumb Wired]
#1350278
12/14/12 04:46 PM
12/14/12 04:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 490
IL
EchoSixMike
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 490
IL
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Quote:
Some good info here for me the BB newbie.
By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo?
The same reason that stops everybody: money. S/F....Ken M
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: camastomcat]
#1350279
12/14/12 04:47 PM
12/14/12 04:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,366
Las Vegas
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We were out at dinner during SCSN last year and ran into one of the pro street teams. We started talking over adult beverages and the subject of engines and cost came up. They told us that a sonny's motor was basically $100 per cube for a complete motor. Oh yeah they had two in the trailer 904, 864 and one in the car 904  Have a freind and fellow Mopar guys , the Vettel's who now run ADRL TS and Pro Mod stuff that runs the big wedge stuff, 900+ cubes and they said basically the same thing. That is indeed a lot of $100 bills To think Craig Olsen had a 762 a 935 and the 1005 incher in his TD and TS cars
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Adrielp]
#1350280
12/14/12 05:35 PM
12/14/12 05:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Some good info here for me the BB newbie.
By the comments of some why stop at the Predator head, why not a Goodwin 5" BS Semi-Hemi or a Sonny's Hemi combo?
Oh no he didn't..Now you are going to upset the Mopar gods and 90% of the posters here with that comment They already gripe about the Predator stuff not being Mopar This majority opinion is why we dont have more options, closed minded thnking
And thats how innovation happens. In designing a new cylinder head, I attempted to keep things conventional with the standard Wedge port configuration but I could never get the intake volume I wanted or the port size. When I changed the configuration all together to a EIEIEIEI, it removed a lot of those restrictions. If anyone ever sits down and for a second and considers how could I improve this design, you will find out all the wrong things that were initially done that need to be solved. I can tell you now, the one thing I would like to change is the intake lifter spacing in the BBM, it sucks! Anyway, when you design this stuff, you really have to be a free thinker and put what works into a new design that doesn't really on whats been done in the past. There is no reason for the mopar faithful to be waiting on the 2013 version of a 906, it limits what can be done with the cylinder head all together.
Also, I saw that some people were talking about valve length and keeping the same rocker. Keep in mind that if you are trying to put the valve axes in the center of the cylinder bore, that longer valves shorten the rocker arm. It makes it really hard to keep the same rocker but with the performance gains your getting, a newer rocker arm would be added security in my opinion.
PS: I also hate the fact that no one has done a 5, 5.2, or 5.3 version of anything mopar besides a KAASE one off and a new blown AJPE/BAE type hemi head. This thinking in terms of innovation is frustrating. I'm 25 and I have no market of heads to look forward to if this type of thinking remains. I'm just glad I was dumb enough to attempt a design of my own.
Check out the photo below and flame away (Its pretty conventional right!).
maybe some more pictures are in order because I can't tell what i'm looking at. that can be for anything. doesnt look like a BB mopar bolt pattern
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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