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B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
#1350161
12/12/12 01:02 PM
12/12/12 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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I'm wondering with the Advent of all the 520" plus cube strokers why B1's are not more popular?
By it's design, the B1 corrects the biggest inherent "flaw" of the late 50's big block Mopar architecture...it moves the valve centerline (and I believe also improves the wedge angles) to the bore centers which gives both valves a much better flow margin around the outside of the bores. In many ways the B1 is essentially a "Race W'" small block scaled up to a big block head; And when they first arrived they were never really popular on the street, mainly becuase it meant custom piston notches and the ports were really too big and required too much RPM for a 440-470" street motor. But now with everyone building 511-572" inch motors the B1 seems like a natural. Of course you need the billet block rocker supports and custom offset rockers...but you need offset rockers on any of the big flow heads now anyway?
I'm hoping Scott Koffel might get wind of this,,,to me it just seems like the marketing opportunity/cost to do a B1 really isn't THAT much more if someone is considering a roller cammed 511+ inch big block. the only other "drawback" to the B1 for the street is the race oriented flow window which relies on high lifts but I'm sure there are port window that could be developed to maximize the cfm in more streetable (sub .750" lift) ranges and milder spring rates.
I'm thinking about a B1 572 with a streetable 2500-6800 rpm powerband, 800 horse with enough torque at any RPM to rotate the earth.
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 01:05 PM.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350162
12/12/12 01:10 PM
12/12/12 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto
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The problem i see here is the rockrer arms and the cost to completion of the heads.
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Biginchmopar]
#1350165
12/12/12 01:20 PM
12/12/12 01:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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I certainly understand the cost point, but my thought is now all the other 'Big port' alternatives also cost more (compared to stock or 'staock-ish, i.e, non-offset valvetrain) in terms of CNC porting and custom rocker gear as well. there's still a price gap...it's just probably not as much as in years past. if you consider a B1 like a scaled-up W8 for a big block it's much closer to modern race technology becuse it's not limited to the conventional valve layout.
To someone who just wants to run a set of Eddies or 440 source "stealths", of course the price difference is monumental...but by the time you consider/compare to CNC victors or -1's, (they also need custom offset valvetrain) well there's still a cost premium...it's just nowhere near as much as in years past, or as compared to other 'Max flow/hp' heads that weren't even in the game when the B1 came out.
And if you're building/considering a stroker, you'll need custom pistons anyway...so at that point if you opt for B1 specific valve notches it doesn't really cost considerably more from that shortblock perspective.
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 01:28 PM.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350167
12/12/12 01:28 PM
12/12/12 01:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto
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Quote:
I certainly understand the cost point, but my thought is now all the other 'Big port' alternatives also cost more (compared to stock or 'staock-ish, i.e, non-offset valvetrain) in terms of CNC porting and custom rocker gear as well. there's still a price gap...it's just probably not as much as in years past. if you consider a B1 like a scaled-up W8 for a big block it's much closer to modern race technology becuse it's not limited to the conventional valve layout.
To someone who just wants to run a set of Eddies or 440 source "stealths" the price difference is monumental...but by the time you CNC victors or -1's, they also need custom offset valvetrain as well. there's still a cost premium...just nowhere near as much as in years past as compared to other 'Max flow/hp' heads that weren't in the game when the B1 came out.
If you're building a stroker, you need custom pistons anyway...so at that point if you opt for B1 notches it doesn't really cost considerably more from the shortblock perspective.
At that point a set of indy 440-1's will get you there and if you want a little more work the 572-13 will cover it and its all figured out.
BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: bigtimeauto]
#1350169
12/12/12 02:04 PM
12/12/12 02:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,334
Heaven
EvilB1Dart
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Quote:
Quote:
I certainly understand the cost point, but my thought is now all the other 'Big port' alternatives also cost more (compared to stock or 'staock-ish, i.e, non-offset valvetrain) in terms of CNC porting and custom rocker gear as well. there's still a price gap...it's just probably not as much as in years past. if you consider a B1 like a scaled-up W8 for a big block it's much closer to modern race technology becuse it's not limited to the conventional valve layout.
To someone who just wants to run a set of Eddies or 440 source "stealths" the price difference is monumental...but by the time you CNC victors or -1's, they also need custom offset valvetrain as well. there's still a cost premium...just nowhere near as much as in years past as compared to other 'Max flow/hp' heads that weren't in the game when the B1 came out.
If you're building a stroker, you need custom pistons anyway...so at that point if you opt for B1 notches it doesn't really cost considerably more from the shortblock perspective.
At that point a set of indy 440-1's will get you there and if you want a little more work the 572-13 will cover it and its all figured out.
True.
But here's something to think about. What do you think the Mopar community would do IF Koffel's ran a "SPECIAL" selling complete B1 Original (no MC's) top-half on sale for 2-weeks one time per year? They already do it, but the price is still out of reach for most I suspect. I have purchased two sets from them on their yearly sale. How many sets do you think they would sell if the price was lower? Complete advertisement on the internet, and in Mopar rags. Limit one complete set per customer and no dealer/vendor purchases. I'd be interested to see how many folks would jump at that offer. Lets say $2500 for their standard B1-O kit. Do you think such an event would promote more sales, or do you think it would not be a hit and followed by excuses, etc?
I'd never run their supplied rockers in a race motor, but I suspect they'd be okay in a street motor that didn't have a real aggressive cam or have to really RPM.
Wes
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: camastomcat]
#1350170
12/12/12 02:05 PM
12/12/12 02:05 PM
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EvilB1Dart
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Quote:
The B1's are "all figured out" as well. I know people that run them on the street and the T&D or Jessel stuff, works great if oiled through the pushrods.
Very true. Thats the only way to run them........ 
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: EvilB1Dart]
#1350171
12/12/12 02:13 PM
12/12/12 02:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,876
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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I remember the very first set of B1's I ever held in my hands....on the bench was an old set of iron 67' 915 heads that had Lord-knows how many hours of hand porting done to them. I looked from one head and back to the other....It was hard to fathom how many years we raced the Iron heads...and then this masterpiece that absolutely DWARFED the stock head not only in flow but in sheer SIZE. Now we're talking! I've built an wrenched on several B1's over the years but never had my own set....a 572" B1 megablock has a nice ring to it, tuned for the street though....basically take a 470" 7800 rpm race powerband and compress it into an "all in by 6500" street motor. another 'one step beyond my 517. I'd like to find a black 70 Road Runner (personal fave) to drop it into, dog dishes...bench seat. 
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350172
12/12/12 02:17 PM
12/12/12 02:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,334
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EvilB1Dart
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Quote:
I'd like to find a black 70 Road Runner (personal fave) to drop it into, dog dishes...bench seat.
WIZE,
Would that be an AUTO or a 'fo-speed? 
Wes
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: EvilB1Dart]
#1350174
12/12/12 02:38 PM
12/12/12 02:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,876
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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3 on the tree, baby!!  Love to run my old school V-Gate set up, set back in the E body position. But then I'd have to swap to buckets. That was a pretty popular mod ( called 'butching' these days) to early B bodies back in my day....no wonder so many restorations need new center humps welded in 
Last edited by Streetwize; 12/12/12 02:45 PM.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1350175
12/12/12 02:57 PM
12/12/12 02:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,166
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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Quote:
well, if your going to buy B1s then you should probably buy aftermarket block, and if your going to buy an aftermarket block then you should probably buy a callies crank and if your going to buy a callies crank then you should probably buy manley rods and if your going to buy manley ro............. 
Exactly!
As an aside, discounting the cost of the shortblock, what is the cost differential between 572-13, B1 original, Predator, and a Stage V Hemi head combo? Is "upgrading" to a Hemi the same cost differential as going from Indys to B1's?
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350176
12/12/12 03:01 PM
12/12/12 03:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,373
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I have never figured out why they are not more popular period. I think there are way to many myths out there about them. However I am sure the biggest issue with most people is pistons. No one stocks a shelf piston for a B1, so you have an additional cost there. Or could be guys are happy with Indy and their stuff. As I have said a hundred times if you cannot make at least 800 hp with a set of B1 originals you are doing something seriously wrong.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: dannysbee]
#1350177
12/12/12 03:03 PM
12/12/12 03:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,166
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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Musce motors was building such an animal a few years ago it was a street set up and made 900 or so hp and a torque curve to die for. 
http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/engines/king-krate.html
I wonder how much you'd lose with their hydraulic roller swap in there. 850+ horse on pump gas and you'd never even have to open the hood all season to check valve lash.
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Streetwize]
#1350178
12/12/12 03:10 PM
12/12/12 03:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
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Figure out the cost difference from a 440-1 top end to a B-1 top end. IMO any 572 street combo should have more than a stealth/ edelbrock cylinder head on it, but i guess it all depends on what the end user can afford to spend and how much power they can afford to give up.
The B-1 head as cast is not what i would consider huge by any stretch, but even in unported form they will work very well on a street brawler with good overall power and torque without having to rev it to the moon. B-1's are a good cylinder head, but in the world of cylinder heads they are antiques compared to what other brands have available. There's only just so much you can do with a 4.8 bore space though.
finally, I would agree that the marketing of the B-1 heads is lacking. ported Edelbrocks or stealths are too small for even a 500" combo to make any real power with, but they will make okay torque with the smallish runners/ cross section.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: B1's - Why not more popular for Big strokers??
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1350179
12/12/12 03:12 PM
12/12/12 03:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,379
MD
Kevins493
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Quote:
I have never figured out why they are not more popular period. I think there are way to many myths out there about them. However I am sure the biggest issue with most people is pistons. No one stocks a shelf piston for a B1, so you have an additional cost there. Or could be guys are happy with Indy and their stuff. As I have said a hundred times if you cannot make at least 800 hp with a set of B1 originals you are doing something seriously wrong.
Problem with that thinking is (as I'm sure you've already figured out), when you do a new build you have to order pistons anyways. Many 440-1 combos out there already run a custom piston for various reasons, so that cost is negated in a lot of builds. Yes the heads themselves are more expensive, but at this level the valvetrain is about the same cost (T&D or Jesel) for everyone and you don't have to get as aggressive with the cam to make the power you want...so you end up with a more reliable engine. Koffel should really be promoting this little detail. I think the other problem is that you can't simply throw a set of B-1's on an engine built around another head as an upgrade, without getting into the short block.
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COST is the only hold up. 
