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Re: Small port w8???
[Re: stevet340]
#1349263
12/13/12 07:56 PM
12/13/12 07:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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Quote:
More than likely it was used on a small displacement, high RPM, extremely efficient engine. 360 cubic inches or less. Bigger is not always better... Not to bash the OP, but I would take the top port over the bottom one any day of the week, chances are it is a very highly efficient, high velocity port with every aspect of it set up for a max effort combination. The short side radius is a lot bigger than the bottom port for sure. The bore size wouldn't be as critical with that port it as long as it was 4" or more. 
The short turn starts at about the same distance from the deck and without looking at the chamber side of the head it would be fairly safe to assume they end in roughly the same place as well, the differance is in port height and width. The only time the samller port head will make more power than the bigger port head is if everything else is too small for the engine like cam, intake, exhaust...
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Small port w8???
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1349264
12/15/12 09:33 AM
12/15/12 09:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 339
western PA
stevet340
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 339
western PA
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I still stand by my original statement, I would much rather start with the small port head and finesse it, than take the hogged out one and hope it works. And I will try to answer Brett's questions (weather or not anyone on here can comprehend them is not my problem). "I am sorry but you just don't get it that top port has min cross section of 2.5 sq in this thing would not "RPM" on anything. High velocity port ?are we building dump trucks or race engines?" 1. Cross section is VERY important, but it isn't the end all be all to a good, efficient head. I have a smallblock (less than 360 cubic inches) race engine, it runs well into the 8's N/A, what does your car run??? A PST 358. With w8 heads (CFE). Had min cross section of 3.2sq in. A good NASCAR cup engine right now has min cross section of 3.8". I guess all the top engine builders have it wrong we need them darn high velocity ports. 2. a PST is a very dif. entity in itself, are you making 1000+ hp, shifting at 10,500+ rpm and running 7.30's @ 175 mph in your car??? "I guess when I reworked Brian's small HVPs and took 20. Dur of duration out of the cam car picked up 1/2 sec and 8 mph......." 3. Brians car picked up a lot but it is safe to say that some of that was from finally getting good machine work done and getting away from the last smallblock "guru" who came on this site spouting big flow and HP numbers all the while peddling his wares and trying to make a "name" for himself. After more than a few shady deals fell through, he dissappeared...  BTW, I have roughly 30* more duration in my cam than you do in yours, I am 60+ cubic inches smaller, roughly the same weight,(I may be 50 lbs heavier) and my heads flow roughly 60 CFM LESS than yours but I am 3 TENTHS quicker than you???  "Oh and I am so glad that looking at port opening you can pick the "good port"" 3.Yes, I can. I have been doing this for a very long time and have seen enough of them to know what will work and what won't... BTW, you posted on here asking what the top head was for, just because you didn't like the answer isn't my problem... "One of the reasons people that KNOW anything stopped posting here....." 4. EXACTLY! There are some extremely smart people that come on this site but when they try to let people in on what works FOR THEM, FOR THEIR COMBINATION, they are belittled by people afraid of being questioned, afraid of thinking outside of the box, afraid that their good "name" and their BUSINESS of "helping" (for a fee of course), less informed people by selling them their parts, products, service, whatever, will suffer. For the record, I did inquire about having a set of W-9 heads ported by you, but when you answered a couple of my questions with " IT'S NOT WORTH THE EFFORT", I realized that what you are selling is not what I am trying to do with my combination and not worth me buying. ANYTHING that will make more power, quicker ET's, more consistancy is ALWAYS worth the effort! I realize that 99% of the guys on here believe that bigger is better and with that bigger engine, airflow demand goes up, but at what price??? Eficiency? YES! I would rather have a small efficient engine than a big inefficient/lazy engine. I wish you and your business the best of luck and I will give you 2 clues to help you in your quest to make a a good head even better. 1. Swirl,tuble and stall. Learn how they affect power output. Harold Bettes of Superflow fame is a great teacher of this and other variables that are as much if not more important than overall flow. Darin Morgan is also very knowledgable on this as well as Carl Foltze of CFE fame. 2. ANYTIME you lower the port floor AND shorten the short side raduis YOU LOSE POWER! Even if you won't admit it, you and the last head "guru" on here lower the port flow and shorten the short side raduis, killing other power producing aspects of pretty much any modern cylinder head. The flow numbers may go up, but power does not go up proportionately for a number of reasons. (See number 1 above). Unless you are building a max effort PST, Australian pro-stock, or comp eliminator type engine with over 1" of valve lift and 10,000 RPM's you are hurting power output! And no, I haven't written any books or been published in any magazine to help promote my business or sell anything in the name of "helping" people, I am not trying to make a name for myself either. My car and et slips do all the talking... Again, I wish you the very best of luck, we race some of the same tracks from time to time so maybe we will meet up and compare notes... 
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Re: Small port w8???
[Re: stevet340]
#1349267
12/15/12 01:20 PM
12/15/12 01:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
WHITEDART
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
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Quote:
I still stand by my original statement, I would much rather start with the small port head and finesse it, than take the hogged out one and hope it works. And I will try to answer Brett's questions (weather or not anyone on here can comprehend them is not my problem).
"I am sorry but you just don't get it that top port has min cross section of 2.5 sq in this thing would not "RPM" on anything. High velocity port ?are we building dump trucks or race engines?"
1. Cross section is VERY important, but it isn't the end all be all to a good, efficient head. I have a smallblock (less than 360 cubic inches) race engine, it runs well into the 8's N/A, what does your car run???
A PST 358. With w8 heads (CFE). Had min cross section of 3.2sq in.
A good NASCAR cup engine right now has min cross section of 3.8". I guess all the top engine builders have it wrong we need them darn high velocity ports.
2. a PST is a very dif. entity in itself, are you making 1000+ hp, shifting at 10,500+ rpm and running 7.30's @ 175 mph in your car???
"I guess when I reworked Brian's small HVPs and took 20. Dur of duration out of the cam car picked up 1/2 sec and 8 mph......."
3. Brians car picked up a lot but it is safe to say that some of that was from finally getting good machine work done and getting away from the last smallblock "guru" who came on this site spouting big flow and HP numbers all the while peddling his wares and trying to make a "name" for himself. After more than a few shady deals fell through, he dissappeared... BTW, I have roughly 30* more duration in my cam than you do in yours, I am 60+ cubic inches smaller, roughly the same weight,(I may be 50 lbs heavier) and my heads flow roughly 60 CFM LESS than yours but I am 3 TENTHS quicker than you???
"Oh and I am so glad that looking at port opening you can pick the "good port""
3.Yes, I can. I have been doing this for a very long time and have seen enough of them to know what will work and what won't... BTW, you posted on here asking what the top head was for, just because you didn't like the answer isn't my problem...
"One of the reasons people that KNOW anything stopped posting here....."
4. EXACTLY! There are some extremely smart people that come on this site but when they try to let people in on what works FOR THEM, FOR THEIR COMBINATION, they are belittled by people afraid of being questioned, afraid of thinking outside of the box, afraid that their good "name" and their BUSINESS of "helping" (for a fee of course), less informed people by selling them their parts, products, service, whatever, will suffer. For the record, I did inquire about having a set of W-9 heads ported by you, but when you answered a couple of my questions with " IT'S NOT WORTH THE EFFORT", I realized that what you are selling is not what I am trying to do with my combination and not worth me buying. ANYTHING that will make more power, quicker ET's, more consistancy is ALWAYS worth the effort! I realize that 99% of the guys on here believe that bigger is better and with that bigger engine, airflow demand goes up, but at what price??? Eficiency? YES! I would rather have a small efficient engine than a big inefficient/lazy engine. I wish you and your business the best of luck and I will give you 2 clues to help you in your quest to make a a good head even better.
1. Swirl,tuble and stall. Learn how they affect power output. Harold Bettes of Superflow fame is a great teacher of this and other variables that are as much if not more important than overall flow. Darin Morgan is also very knowledgable on this as well as Carl Foltze of CFE fame.
2. ANYTIME you lower the port floor AND shorten the short side raduis YOU LOSE POWER! Even if you won't admit it, you and the last head "guru" on here lower the port flow and shorten the short side raduis, killing other power producing aspects of pretty much any modern cylinder head. The flow numbers may go up, but power does not go up proportionately for a number of reasons. (See number 1 above). Unless you are building a max effort PST, Australian pro-stock, or comp eliminator type engine with over 1" of valve lift and 10,000 RPM's you are hurting power output! And no, I haven't written any books or been published in any magazine to help promote my business or sell anything in the name of "helping" people, I am not trying to make a name for myself either. My car and et slips do all the talking... Again, I wish you the very best of luck, we race some of the same tracks from time to time so maybe we will meet up and compare notes...
this sounds like you are really good at porting heads.. why would you talk to some one else about porting a set of w9s.. im a roofer and would never ask some to do my roof . but im not a head porter so I ask you what do you charge to superman port a set of w9s thanks steve please let me no asap
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
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Re: Small port w8???
[Re: WHITEDART]
#1349268
12/15/12 01:42 PM
12/15/12 01:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,484
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,484
SoCal
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This is why I quit posting porting pics and flow #'s a long time ago...it just stirs the terd filled punch bowl!
I wait to run the engine on the dyno before I post anymore...
Oh, and as far as the whole "lowering the port/short turn and loosing power" statement...if you slow down a port that's too fast for the combo it will be a part of, and this means lowering the floor and short turn, and this fixes the port speed at the correct lift/rpm peak of the engine, you will see a power GAIN!
I've done this more than once and proved it on the dyno and the track.
Brian
Brian Hafliger
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Re: Small port w8???
[Re: Otherlane]
#1349272
12/15/12 05:13 PM
12/15/12 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,784
PA
W5DART66
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,784
PA
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You should check into the swirl tumble stuff most good cylinder head guys work on getting rid of it not making it. "Swirl and Tumble , may make you Stumble" i have a digital Strain-Gauge type Swirl Meter that reads in Inch/Ounces of Swirl Torque,..the Strain-Gauge is hooked to a limited-rotation C or CC direction Honeycomb. i painted a thin bright yellow "radius" line facing me ontop of the Honeycomb to see "action" of Honeycomb movement or "jitter" thru Plexiglass Bore Fixture , as a means for more info along with the digital readings. There are also commercially available Tumble-Meters and Paddle or Fan Type Swirl Meters...maybe someone has a Hot-wire Grid setup hooked to a Computer ?? Swirl should help you more with a Carburetor, at low RPMs , and with Cylinder Head Chamber design that have combustion problems or Race Engines with too much Dome in the way, bad spark plug placement, not enough Squish/Quench, etc. Its possible to have too much Swirl and "centrifuge" Fuel out of mixture and deposit on Cylinder walls at higher RPMs Back in 1975-1976 running NHRA C/SM & B/SM class Camaro with SBC...it was 1st time i had Gas-ports in Pistons...when you would take off Cylinder Heads, you would notice Clockwise swirl pattern of oil/gas scum trails left from gas port holes in the direction of Swirl...and CounterClockwise pattern on the other "mirrored-image" sister adjacent Cylinder ..that was the 1st Time i noticed or was made aware of "Swirl" in either Clockwise or CounterClockwise motion ...later on, when i purchased a Swirl-Meter i found out why . There's Cylinder Swirl in Clockwise or CounterClockwise motion direction Tumble in both directions Bowl Swirl/ Valve area Flow Conical Swirl in either direction GM made a very High Bowl-Swirl cast-iron head a few years back.....it had high bowl swirl and it killed Flow numbers, just helped lower RPM combustion efficiency, made terrible HP numbers at higher RPM range ....there is a way to create the same Bowl-Swirl GM did but not loose any Flow...but Dyno and DragStrip tests show no real benefits from all that hard work. The NHRA SuperStock SBC heads i port have tremendous Swirl with no Dome in the way....the Swirls just a side-effect of the way you have to port heads to make Power. The Chrysler SBC heads i port have less swirl numbers than Chevy SBC heads, but make the same HP/Torque percentages from the Flow numbers..the higher Swirl numbers in the Chevy SBC heads seem of no advantage in HP/Torque ..so this leads into why someone wrote an article "Swirl and Tumble , may make you Stumble" ....if you have exhausted all means to making more HP/Torque in a Cylinder Head..then i would look at maybe Swirl and Tumble. looks around 20 or less HP gains on a 600 HP SBC theres so much more HP to be gained from correct Porting. http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4767This is one link. Yes I would like to see bore and stoke of your engine and car on scales. My car on foot brake with bad 60' 1.31 has been 5.73 at 123 mph and was 2860lbs with me in the car on that day. With this big lazy port my engine make 500lbs of TQ at 3500 rpm and peek of 630TQ and this was engine masters build not set up for drag car I am sure e could make more HP with different cam. My intake port is 1.460" off the deck the CFE heads are 1.300" off the deck so I don't think I have killed the ST as much as you think I did . This port is far from lazy as you would think. Like I Siaid earlier look at the port from a stand point of a Homogenous air movement I know it can't be perfect in a port but closer you get the more power you will make = Similar old airspeed in the port floor to roof and wall to wall. I would love to see your car run Steve 
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Re: Small port w8???
[Re: W5DART66]
#1349274
12/15/12 06:32 PM
12/15/12 06:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
340B5
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
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"swirl and tumble, may make you stumble"
Swirl; is for fuel mileage on your economy car
Tumble; is for slower bracket cars
Dump; is for all out race cars
Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
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Re: Small port w8???
[Re: W5DART66]
#1349275
12/15/12 08:27 PM
12/15/12 08:27 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454
Glendora Ca.
Just-a-dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454
Glendora Ca.
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Brett thanks for putting the comparision picture up, and taking the time/effort to share some of the tech with us. I find you and Brian's(ou812)Small block tech posts interesting  thanks
"Just a Bracket car dressed up like a streetcar"
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3200lb stock susp/pumpgas on motor runs 5.70ish and when he hits it with the 2kits which is what it was BUILT for converter/gears etc,,its very very fast.
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