What caused this damage
#1336129
11/16/12 03:26 PM
11/16/12 03:26 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33 Sweden
Petri.
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Sweden
|
Hi you all,i am a from sweden but i read here alot and at all the other mopar sites,i have no a-body but i thought this forum can be the place to get some good answers,i have a 300 -67 and a charger -68 and both i have bought from mopar sites from the states,back to the questions. I just bought a damaged blown 440,i dont have all the data yet but i will get them,this is what i know for now and i opened the engine today. Bds 8-71 kit for 440 2 holley 750 440 block stock 440 crank forged stock 440 rods pistons speed pro trw L2266F coated on the sides edelbrock rpm 84cc heads cam i dont know now but it is a blower cam The engine is built by one serious firm that drive and build race cars,they also dynoed it and it did only hold for 900miles
The damage is that the first rod att the right side (passenger) is broked and it did hit holes about 1" at bouth sides of the block,that piston is also damaged and the piston at the other side,all the bearings looks like new and there is no major damage to the crank so that i can use again, so the only damage is 1 rod broke 2 pistons 1 intake valve bent the block
the rods had arp bolts and it did not broke there,it broke just about 1" upp from the rod journal and as i said there is no damage to that journal and the bearings are nice.
the engine was dynoed at 6psi and it was about 580-600hp,torque i dont know yet before i get the papers and it was sitting in a -31 hot rod
So what can have caused this damage at only 6psi,dont the stock rods hold upp for more,i have been reading some about these pistons and people write that it is a old type heavy piston,true? Can the piston weight with stock rods and the cylinder pressure caused this? I think these pistons turns way under the deck? Good piston for roots engine? The head gaskets did look nice so i dont think that they failed and enabled water to get in to that cylinder and make the rod to smash of but it is hard for me to say but the gaskets looks nice to me,i dont know why they did go with ly rods and just stock bolts to the caps when they did buy the most parts real performance parts. Pictures are coming soon.
/Petri
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336131
11/16/12 04:45 PM
11/16/12 04:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,545 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,545
Minnesota
|
Those heavey old TRW's with stock rods under a blower... Yes, that is a catastrophy looking for a chance to happen. Even at only 6 PSI. I could blow that motor up without a blower, I'm good at that. Think about it, those rods are probably over 40 years old. What punishment did they suffer in a past life? If the builder used those rods and those pistons, this was obviously a budget build, so they probably didn't mag the rods for cracks either. There is no sign of oil starvation or bearing seizure, it's not a stroker so there is no chance of clearance issues, I think the rod was just fatigued and/or overloaded. Blower motors need the best parts. That way, when you blow it up, you know you really acomplished something!
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336133
11/16/12 06:32 PM
11/16/12 06:32 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091 Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
|
That rod bearing looks to be well into the copper. Connecting rods break in the beam area for a number of reasons. the most obvious would be a weak rod, but over reving the engine will cause it, (breaks pulling away from TDC exhaust stroke) a seized wrist pin, not enough ring gap, spun or stuck connecting rod bearing. there are other reasons but those are the most common.
machine shop owner and engine builder
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336135
11/16/12 07:06 PM
11/16/12 07:06 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
|
"The engine is built by one serious firm that drive and build race cars"
No offense, but I doubt it..... Anyone that piles an 8:71 blower atop stock rods and crank is only waiting for exactly what you see to happen. "Build the bottom end with the TOP END in mind" is what I always say.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336136
11/16/12 07:16 PM
11/16/12 07:16 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106 Northeast
VincentVega
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
|
Stunning.
A lot of the comments already posted seem to cover the bases. I would also humbly suggest that perhaps the tuning was bad. The limited knowledge I have of big block blower motors is that a lean condition is death. You need lots of fuel and unrestricted exhaust. Perhaps the damage was started by overheated pistons. Can you see any burning or uniform cylinder wall scuffing? Just guesses
As far as stock mopar forged stuff, it's very good. I hope this doesn't reduce your opinion of factory parts. This is obviously extreme duty though and not a time to use stock components. You have to wonder how well it was tuned and what kind of fuel delivery it had if they put parts like that in it.
I agree with seeing the bearing copper. unlikely it got that pattern from starvation, you'd expect to see galling or tearing or even spinning on just 900 miles with a condition like that. Hard to believe they'd take a worn engine and throw a blower on it.
Someone could have even put a real low grade fuel in it and knocked it to death. The pistons could have been fitted too close. It could even have had a tapered bore job if it was machined incorrectly. There are so many places it can go wrong
I think there's an important backstory here we don't know about
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: VincentVega]
#1336137
11/16/12 07:24 PM
11/16/12 07:24 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,041 Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,041
Finally a HUSKER again
|
Looks like the rod bearings are showing copper like Dan said, How was the tune, I would wonder if it ever detonated under boost? I wouldnt be scared of a stock 440 block, build it correctly and it will be fine for daily fun blasts. PM Dan and get on the phone with him, he is the man, and very helpfull as are many other engine guys on here. Kasey
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336139
11/17/12 09:39 AM
11/17/12 09:39 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33 Sweden
Petri.
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Sweden
|
I will get all the data and on the carbs timing and more from the previous owner and bmaby we can see something there. Pistons look nice on the top here is a pick of the blower. I
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336140
11/17/12 01:02 PM
11/17/12 01:02 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
|
Looks like a classic rod failure in "yank". J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#1336142
11/17/12 02:39 PM
11/17/12 02:39 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,047 MI, usa
dvw
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,047
MI, usa
|
Having run a blown small block street/strip since 1985 I'll put in my 2 cents. Mine is a 340 so not everything applies. Stock block was used over 20 years, no failure. Upgraded to a R-3 block a few years ago. The result is less blow by,the breathers never drip a drip now. Original stock crank, rods were from the Chrysler Trans Am program. Venolia forged piston( 5/64 moly rings). I have beat on this thing to 7000 rpm a long time. Carb's were very rich a one time,not now. Stock jetted Carter Comp 750's, A?F is still 11.8-1 at wot. Timing is the key. Destroyed 2 sets of pistons before I figured that out. Only30 degress total lead. Same pistons since 1991. I run 12 PSI. Car runs 11.0@123 3875lbs in street trim. Doug
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: dvw]
#1336145
11/17/12 09:10 PM
11/17/12 09:10 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Quote:
Having run a blown small block street/strip since 1985 I'll put in my 2 cents. Mine is a 340 so not everything applies. Stock block was used over 20 years, no failure. Upgraded to a R-3 block a few years ago. The result is less blow by,the breathers never drip a drip now. Original stock crank, rods were from the Chrysler Trans Am program. Venolia forged piston( 5/64 moly rings). I have beat on this thing to 7000 rpm a long time. Carb's were very rich a one time,not now. Stock jetted Carter Comp 750's, A?F is still 11.8-1 at wot. Timing is the key. Destroyed 2 sets of pistons before I figured that out. Only30 degress total lead. Same pistons since 1991. I run 12 PSI. Car runs [Email]11.0@123[/Email] 3875lbs in street trim. Doug
Classic example of what works and what doesn't. Just remember thought RB bottom ends ARE sturdy for most forms of competition, but emmense loads of torque/hp can play havoc with them. RB crank rod assemblies being both larger in stroke and rod length, exhibit more stress loading than it's B engine counterpart. B engine bottom ends are blessed (like the 340) with smaller circumferenced cranks (less stress and rod loading). The 340 main webs are a bit thicker than the B/RB's main webs (even though the mains are nearly encased inside the B/RB motor). Bobweight and balancing, plays a big role too. The more mass to spin, the more power it soaks up. RB assemblies are heavy (in standard form) to begin with. Although VERY strong, they are high-torque, moderate hp/rpm pieces, with a some exceptions due to engine options. Again it boils back to building a SOLID foundation (a properly machined, clearanced and balanced block assembly), with a proper selection of power-producing parts/equipment, up top. By the way, Trans-Am engine pieces are kinda rare these days and were of the "improved" versions of the 340 hi-po production pieces. A much different forging than 340 Magnum pieces, they were made to take high stress loading at 8K, maybe higher in rpm. 3875lbs, not bad! Shed 300-500lbs and do some tuning, 10-teens are easy!
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336146
11/18/12 08:24 PM
11/18/12 08:24 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Quote:
The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts
1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have 2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1 3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins 4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco 5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving. 6. Does it need a girdle
Suggestions to your questions (BUT DO research BEFORE you DECIDE!):
Q#1 - OK, but have it inspected and machined , if needed.
Q#2 - Aftermarket, yes, maybe better deal with a COMPLETE rotating assembly. Your choice of manufacturer.
Q#3 and #4 OK, but again your choice after reseach.
Q#5 - Steel, you'll want strength. If you are looking for "crossbolted caps", a new "crossbolted type" block would be better alternative than converting your existing block to the "crossbolted cap" design.
Q#6 - Wouldn't hurt, especially at the hp level you're shooting for. Good alternative to the "crossbolt" caps/block scenario. Just have a good increased-capacity (8qt at least!) baffled oilpan, 1/2" pickup tube (modify block mount for tube) and hi-volume oil pump.
Food for Thought!!
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336147
11/18/12 09:56 PM
11/18/12 09:56 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,047 MI, usa
dvw
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,047
MI, usa
|
Quote:
The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts
1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have 2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1 3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins 4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco 5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving. 6. Does it need a girdle
I don't run a harmonic balancer, hub only. Same crank since I built it in 1985. Doug
|
|
|
Re: What caused this damage
[Re: Petri.]
#1336148
11/18/12 10:47 PM
11/18/12 10:47 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,902 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,902
Bend,OR USA
|
Quote:
The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts
1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have 2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1 3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins 4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco 5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving. 6. Does it need a girdle
Do not drill the block for cross bolts Your weakening it by doing that I would choose aluminum main caps with good main studs and aluminum rods for your driving desires As far as the static(mechanical) compressionratio you might want to start with 9.0 to 9.5 to one and then limit the boost as well as use a intercooler or water and meth.alcholol injection
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
|
|