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What caused this damage #1336129
11/16/12 03:26 PM
11/16/12 03:26 PM
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Sweden
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Petri. Offline OP
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Hi you all,i am a from sweden but i read here alot and at all the other mopar sites,i have no a-body but i thought this forum can be the place to get some good answers,i have a 300 -67 and a charger -68 and both i have bought from mopar sites from the states,back to the questions.
I just bought a damaged blown 440,i dont have all the data yet but i will get them,this is what i know for now and i opened the engine today.
Bds 8-71 kit for 440
2 holley 750
440 block
stock 440 crank forged
stock 440 rods
pistons speed pro trw L2266F coated on the sides
edelbrock rpm 84cc heads
cam i dont know now but it is a blower cam
The engine is built by one serious firm that drive and build race cars,they also dynoed it and it did only hold for 900miles

The damage is that the first rod att the right side (passenger) is broked and it did hit holes about 1" at bouth sides of the block,that piston is also damaged and the piston at the other side,all the bearings looks like new and there is no major damage to the crank so that i can use again, so the only damage is
1 rod broke
2 pistons
1 intake valve bent
the block

the rods had arp bolts and it did not broke there,it broke just about 1" upp from the rod journal and as i said there is no damage to that journal and the bearings are nice.

the engine was dynoed at 6psi and it was about 580-600hp,torque i dont know yet before i get the papers and it was sitting in a -31 hot rod

So what can have caused this damage at only 6psi,dont the stock rods hold upp for more,i have been reading some about these pistons and people write that it is a old type heavy piston,true?
Can the piston weight with stock rods and the cylinder pressure caused this?
I think these pistons turns way under the deck?
Good piston for roots engine?
The head gaskets did look nice so i dont think that they failed and enabled water to get in to that cylinder and make the rod to smash of but it is hard for me to say but the gaskets looks nice to me,i dont know why they did go with ly rods and just stock bolts to the caps when they did buy the most parts real performance parts.
Pictures are coming soon.

/Petri

Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336130
11/16/12 03:58 PM
11/16/12 03:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Sweden
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Petri. Offline OP
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Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336131
11/16/12 04:45 PM
11/16/12 04:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Minnesota
Hemi_Joel Offline
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Those heavey old TRW's with stock rods under a blower...

Yes, that is a catastrophy looking for a chance to happen. Even at only 6 PSI. I could blow that motor up without a blower, I'm good at that.

Think about it, those rods are probably over 40 years old. What punishment did they suffer in a past life?

If the builder used those rods and those pistons, this was obviously a budget build, so they probably didn't mag the rods for cracks either. There is no sign of oil starvation or bearing seizure, it's not a stroker so there is no chance of clearance issues, I think the rod was just fatigued and/or overloaded.

Blower motors need the best parts. That way, when you blow it up, you know you really acomplished something!

Re: What caused this damage [Re: Hemi_Joel] #1336132
11/16/12 05:51 PM
11/16/12 05:51 PM
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communist bloc of new jersey
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jamesc Offline
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first make it strong, then make it powerful
reverse that order and the results are shown in your pics

so the budget allowed for forced induction but not the parts to sustain that level of performance

that is false economy and rarely works out for the best

if you don't have the money to do it right how can you have the money to do it over?

too many people learn this lesson the hard way which is one of the main reasons i have refused to build engines for people. EVEN when you spend the money to properly build a high performance engine there's no way be certain it won't experience a failure, nor is there any way to control what that person does with the engine once it has left your possession

Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336133
11/16/12 06:32 PM
11/16/12 06:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
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Delray beach, Florida
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Performance Only Offline
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That rod bearing looks to be well into the copper. Connecting rods break in the beam area for a number of reasons. the most obvious would be a weak rod, but over reving the engine will cause it, (breaks pulling away from TDC exhaust stroke) a seized wrist pin, not enough ring gap, spun or stuck connecting rod bearing. there are other reasons but those are the most common.


machine shop owner and engine builder
Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336134
11/16/12 06:55 PM
11/16/12 06:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
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Sweden
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Petri. Offline OP
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That damage was good for me because i got it very cheap and i will try to build it right,i am pretty new to mopar engines but have buildt serveras bmw turbos, last one was a m5 s38 wIth pt88 that pushed 1160hp, i bought another 440 so i have a block.,my gole for this engine will be 700hp and it will only be driven on the streets but the more i read about the stock 440 blocks the more scared i get, will it hold together if i go with aluminium main caps and girdle and if i want to go stroker 4.25 or will the torque kill it,i am also thinking of buying a koleno block but that would be pretty expensive to get it to Sweden.

Thanks
/Petri

Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336135
11/16/12 07:06 PM
11/16/12 07:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
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Puyallup, WA
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StealthWedge67 Offline
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"The engine is built by one serious firm that drive and build race cars"

No offense, but I doubt it.....
Anyone that piles an 8:71 blower atop stock rods and crank is only waiting for exactly what you see to happen. "Build the bottom end with the TOP END in mind" is what I always say.


LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336136
11/16/12 07:16 PM
11/16/12 07:16 PM
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Northeast
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VincentVega Offline
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Stunning.

A lot of the comments already posted seem to cover the bases. I would also humbly suggest that perhaps the tuning was bad. The limited knowledge I have of big block blower motors is that a lean condition is death. You need lots of fuel and unrestricted exhaust. Perhaps the damage was started by overheated pistons. Can you see any burning or uniform cylinder wall scuffing? Just guesses

As far as stock mopar forged stuff, it's very good. I hope this doesn't reduce your opinion of factory parts. This is obviously extreme duty though and not a time to use stock components. You have to wonder how well it was tuned and what kind of fuel delivery it had if they put parts like that in it.

I agree with seeing the bearing copper. unlikely it got that pattern from starvation, you'd expect to see galling or tearing or even spinning on just 900 miles with a condition like that. Hard to believe they'd take a worn engine and throw a blower on it.

Someone could have even put a real low grade fuel in it and knocked it to death. The pistons could have been fitted too close. It could even have had a tapered bore job if it was machined incorrectly. There are so many places it can go wrong

I think there's an important backstory here we don't know about


Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
Re: What caused this damage [Re: VincentVega] #1336137
11/16/12 07:24 PM
11/16/12 07:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,041
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426 Offline
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Looks like the rod bearings are showing copper like Dan said, How was the tune, I would wonder if it ever detonated under boost?

I wouldnt be scared of a stock 440 block, build it correctly and it will be fine for daily fun blasts.

PM Dan and get on the phone with him, he is the man, and very helpfull as are many other engine guys on here.

Kasey

Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336138
11/16/12 09:36 PM
11/16/12 09:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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Hot 340 Offline
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I have BENT 340 rods hanging in my basement with half that many miles on them due to detonation. A few more miles and they would have looked like yours. All the best parts in the world are no match for the internal beating detonation gives.

Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336139
11/17/12 09:39 AM
11/17/12 09:39 AM
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Sweden
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Petri. Offline OP
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I will get all the data and on the carbs timing and more from the previous owner and bmaby we can see something there.
Pistons look nice on the top here is a pick of the blower.


I

Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336140
11/17/12 01:02 PM
11/17/12 01:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,057
The Great White North
RAMM Offline
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Looks like a classic rod failure in "yank". J.Rob


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Re: What caused this damage [Re: VincentVega] #1336141
11/17/12 01:55 PM
11/17/12 01:55 PM
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Posts: 2,275
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HYPER8oSoNic Offline
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Quote:

Stunning.

A lot of the comments already posted seem to cover the bases. I would also humbly suggest that perhaps the tuning was bad. The limited knowledge I have of big block blower motors is that a lean condition is death. You need lots of fuel and unrestricted exhaust. Perhaps the damage was started by overheated pistons. Can you see any burning or uniform cylinder wall scuffing? Just guesses

As far as stock mopar forged stuff, it's very good. I hope this doesn't reduce your opinion of factory parts. This is obviously extreme duty though and not a time to use stock components. You have to wonder how well it was tuned and what kind of fuel delivery it had if they put parts like that in it.

I agree with seeing the bearing copper. unlikely it got that pattern from starvation, you'd expect to see galling or tearing or even spinning on just 900 miles with a condition like that. Hard to believe they'd take a worn engine and throw a blower on it.

Someone could have even put a real low grade fuel in it and knocked it to death. The pistons could have been fitted too close. It could even have had a tapered bore job if it was machined incorrectly. There are so many places it can go wrong

I think there's an important backstory here we don't know about





Vincent "hit" home with his post, since there could have been some other factors that may have caused this end result. Ignition timing and fuel mixture/fuel grade are paramount in a "boosted" engine, but so are the factors of a EXCELLENT cooling system and a WELL THOUGHT OUT oiling system also. Horsepower makes heat and heat has to be CONTROLLED to create maximum HORSEPOWER/TORQUE. But, you must first start with a ROCK SOLID foundation to build the HORSEPOWER on!!


Last edited by HYPER8oSoNic; 11/17/12 02:07 PM.

"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: What caused this damage [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #1336142
11/17/12 02:39 PM
11/17/12 02:39 PM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Having run a blown small block street/strip since 1985 I'll put in my 2 cents. Mine is a 340 so not everything applies. Stock block was used over 20 years, no failure. Upgraded to a R-3 block a few years ago. The result is less blow by,the breathers never drip a drip now. Original stock crank, rods were from the Chrysler Trans Am program. Venolia forged piston( 5/64 moly rings). I have beat on this thing to 7000 rpm a long time. Carb's were very rich a one time,not now. Stock jetted Carter Comp 750's, A?F is still 11.8-1 at wot. Timing is the key. Destroyed 2 sets of pistons before I figured that out. Only30 degress total lead. Same pistons since 1991. I run 12 PSI. Car runs 11.0@123 3875lbs in street trim.
Doug

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Re: What caused this damage [Re: dvw] #1336143
11/17/12 02:51 PM
11/17/12 02:51 PM
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Upper Midwest
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MoparforLife Offline
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Several of the mentioned things copuld have caused this but you mentioned that the crankshaft being reusable in your first post. Not without a thorough check out including magnafluxing for cracks and regrinding. The damage that is visable can cause alot of 'invisable' damage.

Re: What caused this damage [Re: MoparforLife] #1336144
11/17/12 05:12 PM
11/17/12 05:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Sweden
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Petri. Offline OP
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The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle

Re: What caused this damage [Re: dvw] #1336145
11/17/12 09:10 PM
11/17/12 09:10 PM
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HYPER8oSoNic Offline
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Quote:

Having run a blown small block street/strip since 1985 I'll put in my 2 cents. Mine is a 340 so not everything applies. Stock block was used over 20 years, no failure. Upgraded to a R-3 block a few years ago. The result is less blow by,the breathers never drip a drip now. Original stock crank, rods were from the Chrysler Trans Am program. Venolia forged piston( 5/64 moly rings). I have beat on this thing to 7000 rpm a long time. Carb's were very rich a one time,not now. Stock jetted Carter Comp 750's, A?F is still 11.8-1 at wot. Timing is the key. Destroyed 2 sets of pistons before I figured that out. Only30 degress total lead. Same pistons since 1991. I run 12 PSI. Car runs [Email]11.0@123[/Email] 3875lbs in street trim.
Doug




Classic example of what works and what doesn't. Just remember thought RB bottom ends ARE sturdy for most forms of competition, but emmense loads of torque/hp can play havoc with them. RB crank rod assemblies being both larger in stroke and rod length, exhibit more stress loading than it's B engine counterpart. B engine bottom ends are blessed (like the 340) with smaller circumferenced
cranks (less stress and rod loading). The 340 main webs are a bit thicker than the B/RB's main webs (even though the mains are nearly encased inside the B/RB motor). Bobweight and balancing, plays a big role too. The more mass to spin, the more power it soaks up. RB assemblies are heavy (in standard form) to begin with. Although VERY strong, they are high-torque, moderate hp/rpm pieces, with a some exceptions due to engine options.
Again it boils back to building a SOLID foundation
(a properly machined, clearanced and balanced block assembly), with a proper selection of power-producing parts/equipment, up top. By the way, Trans-Am engine pieces are kinda rare these days and were of the "improved" versions of the 340 hi-po production pieces. A much different forging than 340 Magnum pieces, they were made to take high stress loading at 8K, maybe higher in rpm. 3875lbs, not bad! Shed 300-500lbs and do some tuning, 10-teens are easy!



"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336146
11/18/12 08:24 PM
11/18/12 08:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
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HYPER8oSoNic Offline
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Quote:

The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle




Suggestions to your questions (BUT DO research BEFORE you DECIDE!):

Q#1 - OK, but have it inspected and machined , if needed.

Q#2 - Aftermarket, yes, maybe better deal with a COMPLETE rotating assembly. Your choice of manufacturer.

Q#3 and #4 OK, but again your choice after reseach.

Q#5 - Steel, you'll want strength. If you are looking for "crossbolted caps", a new "crossbolted
type" block would be better alternative than converting your existing block to the "crossbolted cap" design.

Q#6 - Wouldn't hurt, especially at the hp level you're shooting for. Good alternative to the "crossbolt" caps/block scenario. Just have a good increased-capacity (8qt at least!) baffled oilpan, 1/2" pickup tube (modify block mount for tube) and hi-volume oil pump.

Food for Thought!!



"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336147
11/18/12 09:56 PM
11/18/12 09:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,047
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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MI, usa
Quote:

The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle




I don't run a harmonic balancer, hub only. Same crank since I built it in 1985.
Doug

Re: What caused this damage [Re: Petri.] #1336148
11/18/12 10:47 PM
11/18/12 10:47 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Bend,OR USA
Quote:

The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle


Do not drill the block for cross bolts Your weakening it by doing that I would choose aluminum main caps with good main studs and aluminum rods for your driving desires As far as the static(mechanical) compressionratio you might want to start with 9.0 to 9.5 to one and then limit the boost as well as use a intercooler or water and meth.alcholol injection


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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