Moparts

What caused this damage

Posted By: Petri.

What caused this damage - 11/16/12 08:26 PM

Hi you all,i am a from sweden but i read here alot and at all the other mopar sites,i have no a-body but i thought this forum can be the place to get some good answers,i have a 300 -67 and a charger -68 and both i have bought from mopar sites from the states,back to the questions.
I just bought a damaged blown 440,i dont have all the data yet but i will get them,this is what i know for now and i opened the engine today.
Bds 8-71 kit for 440
2 holley 750
440 block
stock 440 crank forged
stock 440 rods
pistons speed pro trw L2266F coated on the sides
edelbrock rpm 84cc heads
cam i dont know now but it is a blower cam
The engine is built by one serious firm that drive and build race cars,they also dynoed it and it did only hold for 900miles

The damage is that the first rod att the right side (passenger) is broked and it did hit holes about 1" at bouth sides of the block,that piston is also damaged and the piston at the other side,all the bearings looks like new and there is no major damage to the crank so that i can use again, so the only damage is
1 rod broke
2 pistons
1 intake valve bent
the block

the rods had arp bolts and it did not broke there,it broke just about 1" upp from the rod journal and as i said there is no damage to that journal and the bearings are nice.

the engine was dynoed at 6psi and it was about 580-600hp,torque i dont know yet before i get the papers and it was sitting in a -31 hot rod

So what can have caused this damage at only 6psi,dont the stock rods hold upp for more,i have been reading some about these pistons and people write that it is a old type heavy piston,true?
Can the piston weight with stock rods and the cylinder pressure caused this?
I think these pistons turns way under the deck?
Good piston for roots engine?
The head gaskets did look nice so i dont think that they failed and enabled water to get in to that cylinder and make the rod to smash of but it is hard for me to say but the gaskets looks nice to me,i dont know why they did go with ly rods and just stock bolts to the caps when they did buy the most parts real performance parts.
Pictures are coming soon.

/Petri
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/16/12 08:58 PM











Posted By: Hemi_Joel

Re: What caused this damage - 11/16/12 09:45 PM

Those heavey old TRW's with stock rods under a blower...

Yes, that is a catastrophy looking for a chance to happen. Even at only 6 PSI. I could blow that motor up without a blower, I'm good at that.

Think about it, those rods are probably over 40 years old. What punishment did they suffer in a past life?

If the builder used those rods and those pistons, this was obviously a budget build, so they probably didn't mag the rods for cracks either. There is no sign of oil starvation or bearing seizure, it's not a stroker so there is no chance of clearance issues, I think the rod was just fatigued and/or overloaded.

Blower motors need the best parts. That way, when you blow it up, you know you really acomplished something!
Posted By: jamesc

Re: What caused this damage - 11/16/12 10:51 PM

first make it strong, then make it powerful
reverse that order and the results are shown in your pics

so the budget allowed for forced induction but not the parts to sustain that level of performance

that is false economy and rarely works out for the best

if you don't have the money to do it right how can you have the money to do it over?

too many people learn this lesson the hard way which is one of the main reasons i have refused to build engines for people. EVEN when you spend the money to properly build a high performance engine there's no way be certain it won't experience a failure, nor is there any way to control what that person does with the engine once it has left your possession
Posted By: Performance Only

Re: What caused this damage - 11/16/12 11:32 PM

That rod bearing looks to be well into the copper. Connecting rods break in the beam area for a number of reasons. the most obvious would be a weak rod, but over reving the engine will cause it, (breaks pulling away from TDC exhaust stroke) a seized wrist pin, not enough ring gap, spun or stuck connecting rod bearing. there are other reasons but those are the most common.
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/16/12 11:55 PM

That damage was good for me because i got it very cheap and i will try to build it right,i am pretty new to mopar engines but have buildt serveras bmw turbos, last one was a m5 s38 wIth pt88 that pushed 1160hp, i bought another 440 so i have a block.,my gole for this engine will be 700hp and it will only be driven on the streets but the more i read about the stock 440 blocks the more scared i get, will it hold together if i go with aluminium main caps and girdle and if i want to go stroker 4.25 or will the torque kill it,i am also thinking of buying a koleno block but that would be pretty expensive to get it to Sweden.

Thanks
/Petri
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 12:06 AM

"The engine is built by one serious firm that drive and build race cars"

No offense, but I doubt it.....
Anyone that piles an 8:71 blower atop stock rods and crank is only waiting for exactly what you see to happen. "Build the bottom end with the TOP END in mind" is what I always say.
Posted By: VincentVega

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 12:16 AM

Stunning.

A lot of the comments already posted seem to cover the bases. I would also humbly suggest that perhaps the tuning was bad. The limited knowledge I have of big block blower motors is that a lean condition is death. You need lots of fuel and unrestricted exhaust. Perhaps the damage was started by overheated pistons. Can you see any burning or uniform cylinder wall scuffing? Just guesses

As far as stock mopar forged stuff, it's very good. I hope this doesn't reduce your opinion of factory parts. This is obviously extreme duty though and not a time to use stock components. You have to wonder how well it was tuned and what kind of fuel delivery it had if they put parts like that in it.

I agree with seeing the bearing copper. unlikely it got that pattern from starvation, you'd expect to see galling or tearing or even spinning on just 900 miles with a condition like that. Hard to believe they'd take a worn engine and throw a blower on it.

Someone could have even put a real low grade fuel in it and knocked it to death. The pistons could have been fitted too close. It could even have had a tapered bore job if it was machined incorrectly. There are so many places it can go wrong

I think there's an important backstory here we don't know about
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 12:24 AM

Looks like the rod bearings are showing copper like Dan said, How was the tune, I would wonder if it ever detonated under boost?

I wouldnt be scared of a stock 440 block, build it correctly and it will be fine for daily fun blasts.

PM Dan and get on the phone with him, he is the man, and very helpfull as are many other engine guys on here.

Kasey
Posted By: Hot 340

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 02:36 AM

I have BENT 340 rods hanging in my basement with half that many miles on them due to detonation. A few more miles and they would have looked like yours. All the best parts in the world are no match for the internal beating detonation gives.
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 02:39 PM

I will get all the data and on the carbs timing and more from the previous owner and bmaby we can see something there.
Pistons look nice on the top here is a pick of the blower.


I
Posted By: RAMM

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 06:02 PM

Looks like a classic rod failure in "yank". J.Rob
Posted By: HYPER8oSoNic

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 06:55 PM

Quote:

Stunning.

A lot of the comments already posted seem to cover the bases. I would also humbly suggest that perhaps the tuning was bad. The limited knowledge I have of big block blower motors is that a lean condition is death. You need lots of fuel and unrestricted exhaust. Perhaps the damage was started by overheated pistons. Can you see any burning or uniform cylinder wall scuffing? Just guesses

As far as stock mopar forged stuff, it's very good. I hope this doesn't reduce your opinion of factory parts. This is obviously extreme duty though and not a time to use stock components. You have to wonder how well it was tuned and what kind of fuel delivery it had if they put parts like that in it.

I agree with seeing the bearing copper. unlikely it got that pattern from starvation, you'd expect to see galling or tearing or even spinning on just 900 miles with a condition like that. Hard to believe they'd take a worn engine and throw a blower on it.

Someone could have even put a real low grade fuel in it and knocked it to death. The pistons could have been fitted too close. It could even have had a tapered bore job if it was machined incorrectly. There are so many places it can go wrong

I think there's an important backstory here we don't know about





Vincent "hit" home with his post, since there could have been some other factors that may have caused this end result. Ignition timing and fuel mixture/fuel grade are paramount in a "boosted" engine, but so are the factors of a EXCELLENT cooling system and a WELL THOUGHT OUT oiling system also. Horsepower makes heat and heat has to be CONTROLLED to create maximum HORSEPOWER/TORQUE. But, you must first start with a ROCK SOLID foundation to build the HORSEPOWER on!!

Posted By: dvw

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 07:39 PM

Having run a blown small block street/strip since 1985 I'll put in my 2 cents. Mine is a 340 so not everything applies. Stock block was used over 20 years, no failure. Upgraded to a R-3 block a few years ago. The result is less blow by,the breathers never drip a drip now. Original stock crank, rods were from the Chrysler Trans Am program. Venolia forged piston( 5/64 moly rings). I have beat on this thing to 7000 rpm a long time. Carb's were very rich a one time,not now. Stock jetted Carter Comp 750's, A?F is still 11.8-1 at wot. Timing is the key. Destroyed 2 sets of pistons before I figured that out. Only30 degress total lead. Same pistons since 1991. I run 12 PSI. Car runs 11.0@123 3875lbs in street trim.
Doug

Attached picture 7465576-IMG_7816.JPG
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 07:51 PM

Several of the mentioned things copuld have caused this but you mentioned that the crankshaft being reusable in your first post. Not without a thorough check out including magnafluxing for cracks and regrinding. The damage that is visable can cause alot of 'invisable' damage.
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/17/12 10:12 PM

The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle
Posted By: HYPER8oSoNic

Re: What caused this damage - 11/18/12 02:10 AM

Quote:

Having run a blown small block street/strip since 1985 I'll put in my 2 cents. Mine is a 340 so not everything applies. Stock block was used over 20 years, no failure. Upgraded to a R-3 block a few years ago. The result is less blow by,the breathers never drip a drip now. Original stock crank, rods were from the Chrysler Trans Am program. Venolia forged piston( 5/64 moly rings). I have beat on this thing to 7000 rpm a long time. Carb's were very rich a one time,not now. Stock jetted Carter Comp 750's, A?F is still 11.8-1 at wot. Timing is the key. Destroyed 2 sets of pistons before I figured that out. Only30 degress total lead. Same pistons since 1991. I run 12 PSI. Car runs [Email]11.0@123[/Email] 3875lbs in street trim.
Doug




Classic example of what works and what doesn't. Just remember thought RB bottom ends ARE sturdy for most forms of competition, but emmense loads of torque/hp can play havoc with them. RB crank rod assemblies being both larger in stroke and rod length, exhibit more stress loading than it's B engine counterpart. B engine bottom ends are blessed (like the 340) with smaller circumferenced
cranks (less stress and rod loading). The 340 main webs are a bit thicker than the B/RB's main webs (even though the mains are nearly encased inside the B/RB motor). Bobweight and balancing, plays a big role too. The more mass to spin, the more power it soaks up. RB assemblies are heavy (in standard form) to begin with. Although VERY strong, they are high-torque, moderate hp/rpm pieces, with a some exceptions due to engine options.
Again it boils back to building a SOLID foundation
(a properly machined, clearanced and balanced block assembly), with a proper selection of power-producing parts/equipment, up top. By the way, Trans-Am engine pieces are kinda rare these days and were of the "improved" versions of the 340 hi-po production pieces. A much different forging than 340 Magnum pieces, they were made to take high stress loading at 8K, maybe higher in rpm. 3875lbs, not bad! Shed 300-500lbs and do some tuning, 10-teens are easy!

Posted By: HYPER8oSoNic

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 01:24 AM

Quote:

The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle




Suggestions to your questions (BUT DO research BEFORE you DECIDE!):

Q#1 - OK, but have it inspected and machined , if needed.

Q#2 - Aftermarket, yes, maybe better deal with a COMPLETE rotating assembly. Your choice of manufacturer.

Q#3 and #4 OK, but again your choice after reseach.

Q#5 - Steel, you'll want strength. If you are looking for "crossbolted caps", a new "crossbolted
type" block would be better alternative than converting your existing block to the "crossbolted cap" design.

Q#6 - Wouldn't hurt, especially at the hp level you're shooting for. Good alternative to the "crossbolt" caps/block scenario. Just have a good increased-capacity (8qt at least!) baffled oilpan, 1/2" pickup tube (modify block mount for tube) and hi-volume oil pump.

Food for Thought!!

Posted By: dvw

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 02:56 AM

Quote:

The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle




I don't run a harmonic balancer, hub only. Same crank since I built it in 1985.
Doug
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 03:47 AM

Quote:

The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle


Do not drill the block for cross bolts Your weakening it by doing that I would choose aluminum main caps with good main studs and aluminum rods for your driving desires As far as the static(mechanical) compressionratio you might want to start with 9.0 to 9.5 to one and then limit the boost as well as use a intercooler or water and meth.alcholol injection
Posted By: VincentVega

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 03:51 AM

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but how often has anyone seen a 440 with a turbo? Blowers are nice, but a mild big block with a mild turbo would be a sleeper unlike anything. I've never even seen one on youtube, seems like no one even considers it.
Posted By: jyrki

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 08:16 AM

We have two of them in our garage. This is the engine bay of a 1970 Chrysler New Yorker 4 D sedan


Iseriously doubpt that the reason for the breakage is the pistons or rods themselves. Shouldn't be at that power level. We have a 440 with a 6-71 that makes about the same power and it has been together for almost 30 years, but will be gone through this winter. We also broke a 400 with H-profile rods and a supercharger last summer, a rod broke. But that was because a cylinder wall cracked, water got on the piston and since it doesn't compress too well something has to give up... Although propably not the reason in this case, I would check the cylinder walls of that cylinder carefully just to be sure. Detonation might be one reason, but I would assume you should rather see it as gap walk first. And of course the pistons you have are tanks, but unless you wind it very high, I think it shouldn't be a major problem.
Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 03:20 PM

Quote:

We have two of them in our garage. This is the engine bay of a 1970 Chrysler New Yorker 4 D sedan


Iseriously doubpt that the reason for the breakage is the pistons or rods themselves. Shouldn't be at that power level. We have a 440 with a 6-71 that makes about the same power and it has been together for almost 30 years, but will be gone through this winter. We also broke a 400 with H-profile rods and a supercharger last summer, a rod broke. But that was because a cylinder wall cracked, water got on the piston and since it doesn't compress too well something has to give up... Although propably not the reason in this case, I would check the cylinder walls of that cylinder carefully just to be sure. Detonation might be one reason, but I would assume you should rather see it as gap walk first. And of course the pistons you have are tanks, but unless you wind it very high, I think it shouldn't be a major problem.




Yeah I'm thinking he may have spun the engine too high coupled with too much timing.
I see folks with prochargers that have basically stock bottom ends pushing more boost than that and living.
Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 03:27 PM

Quote:

The crank was checked and grinded 0.010 , they did not use any balancer on the crank, why i dont know but i will get one, what do you think about these parts

1. 440 -73 motorhome block that i have
2. Crank , will any of these brands do the job, eagle scat or k1
3. Rods same brand with 0.99 pins
4. Pistons 8.5:1 ross je venolia or wiseco
5. Aluminium or steel main caps and does they need to be cross bolted, will aluminium caps make the block last longer and what is best for street driving.
6. Does it need a girdle




1. Use Hardblock halfway up the cylinder walls to strengthen it.

2. A stock forged steel crank will be fine, just check it first.

3. Good aftermarket rods

4. Yes

5. Aluminum main caps with stud girdle.

6. Yes
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 04:03 PM

Since you still have the broken piston at hand, remove the piston rings and check their gap-width by putting them in the cylinder they came out off.
Maybe the engine-builder just forgot to gap the rings on this cylinder.


But then again, an engine with dyno-time only shouldn't eat a bearing like that already.
I think there has been an oil problem or perhaps dirt in the oil system during the mishap.
How do the other bearings look like?

Can you show a good picture of the top of the piston?
Posted By: Hemi_Joel

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 04:43 PM

I think we need a better picture of the bearing. On my computer screen, it doesen't really look like copper showing, it looks like the brown cardboard reflecting off a shiney aluminum bearing.
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 09:53 PM

Thanks you all for helping me out.
I will check the ringgap tomorrow after work and ill take some pics for you of the pistons and bearings.
A little oftopic but here is the bmw i buildt 6 years ago.



Posted By: dogdays

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 10:43 PM

In my humble opinion, I'd start with detonation as the cause.

The blower effectively makes the engine much bigger so high rpm are not required.

Now I am on record as saying the stock 440 pistons are stones or clubs and the rods would be MUCH BETTER with 7/16" rod bolts, but this doesn't appear to me to be rpm related. So that leaves detonation which is lurking around every blower setup waiting to bite you.

ANY 440 block needs to have cylinder walls sonic checked before you invest a bunch of Euros in it.

I'd suggest using a BCR main cap/girdle setup to stiffen the bottom end. Also, a half fill of the block will stiffen the cylinder walls.

I'd email Dan at Performance Only to get his take on cranks, off the top of my head I'd use either K1 or Scat over Eagle. If you really want to build strong, Crower is the name I'd drop. But it will cost you twice as much as a K1 or Scat.

Pistons need to be strong forgings designed for blower use, get with a piston manufacturer directly after getting some input on who. Also, wristpins need to be sturdy.

I think you will be able to run 700 - 800 hp with ease using all these good parts. But, if you have already spent $5000 on moving parts, does it make sense to use a stock block? I'd seriously suggest getting an aftermarket block. Then you'll be bulletproof.

R. (really good at spending other people's money)
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 11:23 PM

I want it to be bulletproof and i think the best for me would be a aftermarket block and i am not in a hurry to get this engine done, better to save some money for a block and have it shipped to sweden, would a kp 440 block be a good choice to use on a street car,it has to work as a cruiser, dont want any problems with too high water temperature.
Posted By: 446acuda

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 11:29 PM

I'm not going to say that this has anything to do with what happened to your engine but those coated trw's need a bigger bore to get the specified piston to wall clearance. In otherword, if that block was bored and honed for uncoated 2266's and then coated 2266's were used instead then piston to wall clearance would be way too tight.
Posted By: VincentVega

Re: What caused this damage - 11/19/12 11:56 PM

Quote:

We have two of them in our garage. This is the engine bay of a 1970 Chrysler New Yorker 4 D sedan


Iseriously doubpt that the reason for the breakage is the pistons or rods themselves. Shouldn't be at that power level. We have a 440 with a 6-71 that makes about the same power and it has been together for almost 30 years, but will be gone through this winter. We also broke a 400 with H-profile rods and a supercharger last summer, a rod broke. But that was because a cylinder wall cracked, water got on the piston and since it doesn't compress too well something has to give up... Although propably not the reason in this case, I would check the cylinder walls of that cylinder carefully just to be sure. Detonation might be one reason, but I would assume you should rather see it as gap walk first. And of course the pistons you have are tanks, but unless you wind it very high, I think it shouldn't be a major problem.




That's awesome. Please tell me there is a page on here, or a webpage somewhere about this car?
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/20/12 08:28 PM

I checked the ring gap at the broken piston first and second ring was about 0.028
Here are some more pics











Posted By: CH3NO2

Re: What caused this damage - 11/20/12 08:41 PM

It looks like it beat itself to death. What kind of oil system did you have on this one?
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/20/12 08:46 PM

The only thing i know they had is hv pump and some stock pan.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: What caused this damage - 11/21/12 09:40 AM

My best guess is too tight clearance on the rod-bearings.
Posted By: Petri.

Re: What caused this damage - 11/25/12 09:52 PM

Have some more questions

1. What bearing clearance for the rods

2. What bearing clearance for the mains

3. How big oilpan will be enough big.

4. What more mods do i need to do to the oil system beside my hv pump, does it need a cooler.

/Thanks
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