Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: mopardamo]
#1333907
11/11/12 04:10 PM
11/11/12 04:10 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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What will be the basic purpose of the car? What else do you plan on using the car for?
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: mopardamo]
#1333910
11/11/12 06:18 PM
11/11/12 06:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
cudazappa
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
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Quote:
Intend to have a multipurpose car. Already plan on welding the critical seams, add inner fender braces, radiator lower brace, sub frame connector and torque boxes. Want as stiff a system as I can get before potentially adding the hoop and drivers side brace. My thinking is the stiffer the better for anything. I'm the kind of person that put custom valved Fox 2.0 shocks on a basically stock Ram for added control. Well not exactly stock. Asking to try and get an handle on who's individual bracing components are best and am if I am missing something I should be doing while the care is getting the welding done.
Damon
Stitch welding is a great starting point. I've seen where stress cracks form in rear quarters by the rear glass (well on a Camaro raced hard, but not too far from an E-body... LOL)
Start with the subframe connectors. Two ways to go on this. Use the hotchkis ones (that tie to the rear spring mounts) or the fabricate your own (2x2 or 2 wide x 3 tall, I like 1/8 wall) from the rear frame rails (both will weld to the t-bar x-member). The hotchkis ones will essentially nullify a rear torque box. If you go the fab your own route, you could get your rear torque boxes from auto rust technicians.
Front torque boxes are good for tieing your front frame rails to your t-bar x-member. The front of your e-body is really flexible.
So now I'll concentrate on the front. The under radiator brace is a great idea, as well as the shock tower supports. Some people love the monte-carlo bar above the engine. XV has all this stuff, but if you have fab skills, nothing too bad I would say.
Finally the roll bar. Equalize the stiffness and put a passenger door bar in. The real stiffening portion of the roll bar will be the rear down tubes. This will stiffen up your frame where the leafs reside. Also gives you a great place for your safety harness 
Eagerly waiting for my house to be built so I can do all this to my 71 Challenger! SOON!!! (well, the roll bar is on next off-season's list) I have added the 2x2 frame connectors (auto rust technicians) already and that was a tremendous improvement.
1971 Challenger
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: AndyF]
#1333912
11/11/12 10:52 PM
11/11/12 10:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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i didn't want a cage in the car but i did everything else:
stich weld the car,
subframe connectors,
torque boxes,
inner fender braces,
lower rad brace,
welded up the shock towers,
will be building a engine brace as well...
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: mopardamo]
#1333915
11/13/12 01:17 AM
11/13/12 01:17 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Quote:
Hello jcc,
Guess I did not realize that torque boxes aren't needed once I put in the subframe connectors.
Damon
Well that is my take on the matter, torque boxes were an OEM bandaid, and subframe connectors are the correct solution, having both does not cause any significant issues and they still add additional stiffness, but again IMO not much for what it is, and a well designed robust subframe connector is best, in lieu of a full cage. 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: mopardamo]
#1333916
11/13/12 02:39 AM
11/13/12 02:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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I'll agree with the XV and US-Tool-Works products as they've done some interesting studies... shown in their videos. I like the SFC that become welded across the floor pan, but with certain club "rules", that type is not allowed (too bad!).
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1333917
11/13/12 07:50 PM
11/13/12 07:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
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Quote:
I'll agree with the XV and US-Tool-Works products as they've done some interesting studies... shown in their videos. I like the SFC that become welded across the floor pan, but with certain club "rules", that type is not allowed (too bad!).
Any reasons that you know of why that is disallowed? It's not that expensive, and our old uni bodies weren't stitched together all that tightly to begin with.
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: Skeptic]
#1333918
11/13/12 10:35 PM
11/13/12 10:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
cudazappa
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
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Quote:
Quote:
I'll agree with the XV and US-Tool-Works products as they've done some interesting studies... shown in their videos. I like the SFC that become welded across the floor pan, but with certain club "rules", that type is not allowed (too bad!).
Any reasons that you know of why that is disallowed? It's not that expensive, and our old uni bodies weren't stitched together all that tightly to begin with.
Mitch is talking about the SCCA (and all the clubs that use their rule-set). They have to make a broad set of rules to define their classes that can satisfy everything from a mini-cooper to a Lamborgini.
Its a rather recent addition to the street prepared rules (one level up from stock) to allow frame connectors that's been modified from bolt in, to weld in, to now 2+1 points of attachment (straight, the +1 allowment is because, I believe, of Fox Body Mustangs having their seat mounts being into the connectors). Its an evolution of rules. If you want to change the rules, get a group of guys together and present a convincing argument to the rules committee to get a change.
In defense of the current rules, 2x2 tubing underneath the floor is still stronger torsionally than the contour of the floor style (thicker wall, and larger overall cross-sectional area). I tucked mine up to the floor (I'm now beyond 2 pts of attachment) so I moved up 2 classes.
Glad to see US Car Tool stepped up to the plate with the kit.
1971 Challenger
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: Skeptic]
#1333919
11/14/12 11:41 AM
11/14/12 11:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
Hello jcc,
Guess I did not realize that torque boxes aren't needed once I put in the subframe connectors.
Damon
The role of the torque boxes is to better tie in the subframe structure to the rocker sill. Rockers provide a similar beaming resistance as a subframe connector, but they are not as stout as a dedicated subframe tie. The Mopar Chassis book actually recommends beefing up the sill plate in dedicated track cars.
Quote:
Quote:
I'll agree with the XV and US-Tool-Works products as they've done some interesting studies... shown in their videos. I like the SFC that become welded across the floor pan, but with certain club "rules", that type is not allowed (too bad!).
Any reasons that you know of why that is disallowed? It's not that expensive, and our old uni bodies weren't stitched together all that tightly to begin with.
Its disallowed because it provides a significant competitive advantage. Stitch welding seams is similarly disallowed because of the advantage it provides. FWIW, welding up all the seams in a unibody can improve rigidity up to 75% or better.
Here is a really good read about chassis stiffening. While performed on a 1st gen Mustang, the results would be typical for most unitized construction car bodies.
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.ph...;highlight=sn65
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: mopardamo]
#1333921
11/14/12 08:08 PM
11/14/12 08:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 11
younggun2.0
member
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member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 11
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: younggun2.0]
#1333923
11/15/12 03:33 AM
11/15/12 03:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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Younggun... the pics look very good... that's how I'd like ot eventually make mine with good stiff metal... but the SCCa rules don't allow cutting through the floor pan (in class E/Street Prepared where I've kept the car setup to compete).
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Torque Boxes and other stiffeners
[Re: jcc]
#1333924
11/15/12 01:39 PM
11/15/12 01:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
Quote:
The Mopar Chassis book actually recommends beefing up the sill plate in dedicated track cars.
Not clear to me, describe/define "sill plate" please.
Sorry, the rocker panels. I'll see if I can find it and scan.
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