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Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? #1296993
09/04/12 02:13 AM
09/04/12 02:13 AM
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Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
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I have been using the Pressure modeling equation:
P2 = P1(V1/V2)^y
Where P1 is 14.7 psi @ sea level,
(V1/V2) is the engines calculated dynamic compression,
and y = 1.2 - The 1.2 value is from the article in
http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm, so I am not sure how they arrived at that value? In an idea system with no heat losses y should be close to 1.4 for air.
Anyhow for Temperature, if I use this equation:
T2=T1(V1/V2)^(y-1)
with T1 being the initial air temperature (in Kelven),
what value of y would best model the air temperature increase from compression in a real engine?
When I did some modeling with an 8:1 dynamic compression ratio, using y=1.4 resulted in temperature increases about 8:1 also.
using y=1.2, the increase was closer to 4:1.
So if intake air is about 100 degrees should the compressed air be closer to 400 degrees or 800 degrees or maybe somewhere in between?

Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: 451Mopar] #1296994
09/04/12 09:19 AM
09/04/12 09:19 AM
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Mountains of NM
65superstock Offline
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I am no help here, but just as a sanity check, IF you are using Kelvin in that equation, I seriously doubt your intake temp is 100 Kelvin, which is -179 degrees Fahrenheit...

Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: 65superstock] #1296995
09/04/12 09:41 AM
09/04/12 09:41 AM
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bonefish Offline
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there is noway you will reach between 400-700 using that system for your calculations,NO WAY!!!.

Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: bonefish] #1296996
09/04/12 10:09 AM
09/04/12 10:09 AM
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What you are concerned about is the isentropic expansion factor or the ratio of specific heats. I'd recommend going to Wikipedia and looking at "Heat Capacity Ratio" for more info. I would guess that the deviation from the theoretical 1.4 for air is due to compressing a mixture of air and gasoline, and not pure air. Obviously if this is the reason it would only apply to a spark ignited engine.



"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: 6PakBee] #1296997
09/04/12 12:34 PM
09/04/12 12:34 PM
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I seem to recall my professor from my Internal Combustion Engines class in college said to use k=1.3 for the ratio of specific heats (what you are calling, y). I've usually seen it listed as k in texts on IC engines, like Richardo and Obert, etc.

Room temp in Kelvin is around 300K (27 C). I'd start with that as a starting point. I never thought I'd see a post on such things on here.


Floyd Lippencott IV
Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: mr_340] #1296998
09/04/12 01:20 PM
09/04/12 01:20 PM
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Quote:

I never thought I'd see a post on such things on here.




So what exactly do you mean by that comment?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: jcc] #1296999
09/04/12 06:25 PM
09/04/12 06:25 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

I never thought I'd see a post on such things on here.




So what exactly do you mean by that comment?


he means someone is working on optimum volumetric efficiency!! i knew i could use that somewhere!!

Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: mikemee1331] #1297000
09/05/12 01:27 AM
09/05/12 01:27 AM
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Is it adiabatic or isentropic? I'll have to think about it. Everytime I start throwing out engineering terms I get bashed or ignored, so I was kind of surprised someone else was daring enough to bring up such things. I caught hell for my rich/lean comments relative to stoichiometric ratios. I can show you where it is in Sir Harry Ricardo's book, The Internal Combustion Engine defining it, but couldn't convince anyone on here that I was right. The first issue of that book that I read was from 1953. I consider books like that to be the authority on such issues. I have the 1967 reprint, but it's only half as thick as I remember the 1953 printing.


Floyd Lippencott IV
Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: mr_340] #1297001
09/05/12 03:00 AM
09/05/12 03:00 AM
Joined: May 2008
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Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline OP
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I was using some info I found on this wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process

I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical engineer or physicist, so my knowledge of thermodynamics is limited.

I was just trying to get an idea of how changes in air and engine temp affect the compressed air/fuel temps prior to ignition, or pre-ignition if the temps are too high? I know the diesel engines rely on the heated air under compression to ignite the diesel when it is injected.

When I worked the Thermal equation using a 1.2 factor for y (or K?) I converted 100 degrees F = 310.93 Kelvin, with the V1/V2 (estimated dynamic compression) of 8:1, I got T2 = 471.28 Kelvin which converts back to 388.63 degrees F?
With a y factor of 1.3, T2 = 584.71 F,
and with a y factor of 1.4, T2 = 826.11 F.

I would the fuel and losses to the chamber would reduce the factor below the ideal 1.4 factor?
My guess is the 1.2 factor may be a closer estimate.

I think if I took the time, I might be able to model a "real gas" model, and chamber, piston, etc to get a more accurate model, but I thought one of the mechanical engineer, or automotive books may have an estimate or formula already worked out?

One of the technical books I have is "Internal Combustion Engines" by V. Ganesan. It is very technical, but does not always have values defined for variables.

Dang, when I grabbed the book to get the authors name, I flipped through it and found an estimate used in one of the examples (page 152, example 4.3.) In the example it says to assume the "index of compression" = 1.3?

Re: Modeling equation for adiabatic thermal increase? [Re: 451Mopar] #1297002
09/05/12 10:39 AM
09/05/12 10:39 AM
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You guys must be getting bored..







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