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498 cid 440 stroker build formula #1258621 06/27/12 11:09 PM 06/27/12 11:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca T torqueaddict OP member
torqueaddict OP member T Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca	Hey guys, heres my build I wanna see what you guys think. I am building a 498 stroker from a 440 made by hughes engines. The kit is 4.15 stroke with I beam rods. Flat top pistons. I am using the 440 source stealth heads in theyre standard form, they have an 80cc. The cam I have is the Lunati 60303 cam. Here is the specs:Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276 Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 226/234 Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .494/.513 LSA/ICL: 110/106 Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd RPM Range: 1800-6200 I am running a 727 trans with a 2400 stall and 323 gears. I am really concerned that my compression will be far to high. I am trying to run on pumped gas without detonation. The guy from Hughes said I can run pumped gas with this really huge cam. I want a steady idle and dont want to sound like my car is dying out. What do you guys think? I have the option of sending the flat tops back along with the crank to get dish pistons and have it all balanced. I am a little upset because I told him I want a pump gas motor and he sent me flat top pistons anyway. Maybe you guys have some ideas on how to lower my compression and make this thing work without sending it back. Thanks in advance for the help guys.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: torqueaddict] #1258622 06/27/12 11:25 PM 06/27/12 11:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN A ahy master
ahy master A Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN	There are lots of variables in figuring compression and more in estimating detonation potential... but in your case I'd say no way on pump gas. With 80'ish cc heads and 4.15+ stroke you will just about always need a decent size dish piston for pump gas. As a guess, you are around 11.5 CR with the flat top. With a smaller performance cam, you should be at 10 or maybe less depending on quench for pump gas. I'd send it back and get the dish piston. If you have measurements on your engine - deck height, rod length - and know the piston specs - compression height and dish or valve relief volume - CR can be calculated more accuratly. Bottom line, flat top on a stroker is normally a race gas only setup.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: ahy] #1258623 06/27/12 11:30 PM 06/27/12 11:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 4,944 WI Dcuda69 master
Dcuda69 master Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 4,944 WI	Quote: There are lots of variables in figuring compression and more in estimating detonation potential... but in your case I'd say no way on pump gas. With 80'ish cc heads and 4.15+ stroke you will just about always need a decent size dish piston for pump gas. As a guess, you are around 11.5 CR with the flat top. With a smaller performance cam, you should be at 10 or maybe less depending on quench for pump gas. I'd send it back and get the dish piston. If you have measurements on your engine - deck height, rod length - and know the piston specs - compression height and dish or valve relief volume - CR can be calculated more accuratly. Bottom line, flat top on a stroker is normally a race gas only setup. I have a dish in my Diamonds in a 470"(low deck) with Eddy heads at 84cc...puts me at 10.2:1 which works great on pump swill.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: ahy] #1258624 06/27/12 11:31 PM 06/27/12 11:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,587 missouri, USA moparmojo master
moparmojo master Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,587 missouri, USA	Is 11:1 too high with aluminium heads?

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: moparmojo] #1258625 06/27/12 11:37 PM 06/27/12 11:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada	I ran the 60303, it's not an aggressive cam for a 440. Tiny for a 493. I'd be looking more at the 60305.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: moparmojo] #1258626 06/27/12 11:38 PM 06/27/12 11:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 4,944 WI Dcuda69 master
Dcuda69 master Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 4,944 WI	"Is 11:1 too high with aluminium heads?" I think that depends on what your plans are. I wanted to make sure I can ALWAYS be able to buy fuel so I went pretty conservative(mine runs fine on 89, found that out by an oops )If your plans are always being able to run race gas or premium fuel(or any type of combo)you can be more aggressive. I have no idea what pump swill will be in the years to come, so I stayed conservative. Last edited by Dcuda69; 06/27/12 11:39 PM.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: Dcuda69] #1258627 06/28/12 12:13 AM 06/28/12 12:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,886 Bowling Green KY / Nashville, ... 300by500 master
300by500 master Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,886 Bowling Green KY / Nashville, ...	My 4.15 crank / .040 over 498 RB has relieved pistons at zero deck, and it will be about 11:1 with 84cc Edelbrocks. It has a Hughes 246/250 duration hydraulic cam (.614 / .610 lift with the 1.6 Harland Sharps) If you have 80cc heads and your pistons are near the top of the bore, I'd guess you'll be over 11:1 compression, which is about as high as you want to go with 93 octane. 7268382-HPIM0347.JPG (192 downloads) https://i.imgur.com/tmuGzov.jpg

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: 300by500] #1258628 06/28/12 12:19 AM 06/28/12 12:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca T torqueaddict OP member
torqueaddict OP member T Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca	Quote: My 4.15 crank / .040 over 498 RB has relieved pistons at zero deck, and it will be about 11:1 with 84cc Edelbrocks. It has a Hughes 246/250 duration hydraulic cam (.614 / .610 lift with the 1.6 Harland Sharps) If you have 80cc heads and your pistons are near the top of the bore, I'd guess you'll be over 11:1 compression, which is about as high as you want to go with 93 octane. The 440source stealth heads claim to have 80cc heads, I hope not. If they dont that will help my issue.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1258629 06/28/12 12:23 AM 06/28/12 12:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca T torqueaddict OP member
torqueaddict OP member T Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca	Quote: I ran the 60303, it's not an aggressive cam for a 440. Tiny for a 493. I'd be looking more at the 60305. Will that 60305 cam give me a smooth idle with lots of low end torque?

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: ahy] #1258630 06/28/12 12:30 AM 06/28/12 12:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca T torqueaddict OP member
torqueaddict OP member T Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca	Quote: There are lots of variables in figuring compression and more in estimating detonation potential... but in your case I'd say no way on pump gas. With 80'ish cc heads and 4.15+ stroke you will just about always need a decent size dish piston for pump gas. As a guess, you are around 11.5 CR with the flat top. With a smaller performance cam, you should be at 10 or maybe less depending on quench for pump gas. I'd send it back and get the dish piston. If you have measurements on your engine - deck height, rod length - and know the piston specs - compression height and dish or valve relief volume - CR can be calculated more accuratly. Bottom line, flat top on a stroker is normally a race gas only setup. The machine shop is going to measure out everything and see where we are at. After that I will make a decision. I am upset about the extra cost because he sent me the wrong stuff. This really sucks.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: torqueaddict] #1258631 06/28/12 12:54 AM 06/28/12 12:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,085 NotRussia 2 2fast4yourBrain Whack top Dodger
2fast4yourBrain Whack top Dodger 2 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,085 NotRussia	Stupid question, but can you install a super thick head gasket to lower compression ratio? Or will that screw up quench? 70 318 Chally vert FC7/XW (sold) 06 300c SRT8 04 2500 QCLB 4x4 HO 1971 BMW 2800CS 1955 Nomad 1970 280SL

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: 2fast4yourBrain] #1258632 06/28/12 01:35 AM 06/28/12 01:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca T torqueaddict OP member
torqueaddict OP member T Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca	Quote: Stupid question, but can you install a super thick head gasket to lower compression ratio? Or will that screw up quench? Im not sure but I think your correct. Thats what my buddy told me.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: torqueaddict] #1258633 06/28/12 04:23 AM 06/28/12 04:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 42 Nelson-New Zealand BIG-MIKE-500 ci member
BIG-MIKE-500 ci member Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 42 Nelson-New Zealand	Hi Anthony. That cam is far too small for those cubes. I have a 493ci Stroker. I use "Diamond Piston" part#52415 which has an effective dish of -12:5cc. I have a deck clearence of 2 thou; & using Comp Cams 294S which is 248@050" & with the cam installed straight-up, has a cranking pressure of 185 lbs. On pump gas this is close to as much pressure that you want to go. I use Stealth Heads(standard)it idles at 800rpm & with 2:75 gears in an Aussie Charger with myself & fuel weighs in at near 4000lbs, with 4-speed New-Process does 12:00-12:30@ 117-118mph in the 1/4 & 92mph at the 1/8 mile mark. I also get 17mpg Imperial(approx 15US). 2260 revs @ 62mph. I believe you will have regrets with a cam that small. It is even small in a 440 so it will just starve a 493ci. Mike in New Zealand

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: BIG-MIKE-500 ci] #1258634 06/28/12 07:35 AM 06/28/12 07:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,886 Bowling Green KY / Nashville, ... 300by500 master
300by500 master Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,886 Bowling Green KY / Nashville, ...	Quote: Hi Anthony. That cam is far too small for those cubes. I have a 493ci Stroker. I use "Diamond Piston" part#52415 which has an effective dish of -12:5cc. I have a deck clearence of 2 thou; & using Comp Cams 294S which is [Email]248@050"[/Email] & with the cam installed straight-up, has a cranking pressure of 185 lbs. On pump gas this is close to as much pressure that you want to go. I use Stealth Heads(standard)it idles at 800rpm & with 2:75 gears in an Aussie Charger with myself & fuel weighs in at near 4000lbs, with 4-speed New-Process does 12:00-12:30@ 117-118mph in the 1/4 & 92mph at the 1/8 mile mark. I also get 17mpg Imperial(approx 15US). 2260 revs @ 62mph. I believe you will have regrets with a cam that small. It is even small in a 440 so it will just starve a 493ci. Mike in New Zealand 12 flat quarters in a 4000 lb car with 2.75 gears! THAT is why I love strokers! You're right about the cam... https://i.imgur.com/tmuGzov.jpg

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: 300by500] #1258635 06/28/12 10:01 AM 06/28/12 10:01 AM
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,188 aZLiViN J J_BODY I Live Here
J_BODY I Live Here J Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,188 aZLiViN	If you have a set of stock LY rods laying around I wouldn't be the least worried about using them at the power level you are shooting for. The stock rods are still alive and well in my old car and it's running low 10's.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: BIG-MIKE-500 ci] #1258636 06/28/12 11:09 AM 06/28/12 11:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca T torqueaddict OP member
torqueaddict OP member T Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca	Quote: Hi Anthony. That cam is far too small for those cubes. I have a 493ci Stroker. I use "Diamond Piston" part#52415 which has an effective dish of -12:5cc. I have a deck clearence of 2 thou; & using Comp Cams 294S which is [Email]248@050"[/Email] & with the cam installed straight-up, has a cranking pressure of 185 lbs. On pump gas this is close to as much pressure that you want to go. I use Stealth Heads(standard)it idles at 800rpm & with 2:75 gears in an Aussie Charger with myself & fuel weighs in at near 4000lbs, with 4-speed New-Process does 12:00-12:30@ 117-118mph in the 1/4 & 92mph at the 1/8 mile mark. I also get 17mpg Imperial(approx 15US). 2260 revs @ 62mph. I believe you will have regrets with a cam that small. It is even small in a 440 so it will just starve a 493ci. Mike in New Zealand One of the members from cuda challenger uses that cam. He says he really likes the cam. I changed it and went a step up just to be safe. He said my compression would be too high even if I bring it below 11:1. So I went with the next one up. I am not sure where the piston sits in the hole however I think I am just going to send them back and get the dished pistons.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: torqueaddict] #1258637 06/28/12 02:01 PM 06/28/12 02:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 18,582 Rust Belt, SW PA Silver70 I Live Here
Silver70 I Live Here Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 18,582 Rust Belt, SW PA	I had a 499, edelbrock heads, mp 590 cam, 11 to 1 compression and it ran fine on 93 octance. 68 Road Runner, 69 Belvedere, 71 Challenger Vert 340 barracuda, 01 Ram CTD, 95 Ram, 04 Ram, 85 Daytona turbo Z 66 GTO, 06 Magnum RT AWD. 07 Ram CTD, 07 Ram

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: Silver70] #1258638 06/28/12 03:01 PM 06/28/12 03:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca T torqueaddict OP member
torqueaddict OP member T Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 185 east bay ca	I live in California, we dont have 93 octane. And I think the stealth heads have smaller cc so I would actually be closer to 11 1/2 to one. I already shipped back the crank and the pistons in favor of dish pistons.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: torqueaddict] #1258639 06/28/12 04:11 PM 06/28/12 04:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 42 Nelson-New Zealand BIG-MIKE-500 ci member
BIG-MIKE-500 ci member Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 42 Nelson-New Zealand	Mike in New Zealand here. Anthony, here is a run-down of my set-up. I run a Comp Cams solid,248@050"; 76 overlap on 110 centers. RB Stroker 496;10:8-1 with 187 lbs cranking pressure. I've champhered the top of the bore beside the inlet valve down to top of top ring.(I believe it helps Cylinder filling) Stock 440 Source Stealth Heads; 1-7/8" Headers; Weiand Xcelerator with 850 Holley(4781). It idles at 800rpm. My car is an Australian Charger weighing with myself & fuel a nudge over 4000lbs. I have New-Process 4-Speed with 2:75 geared 9inch out back. It runs 12:00-12:25@117-118:50mph 1/4 mile & 91-92mph 1/8th mile with 2:0sec 60ft every run. I use a 650(4777)Holley on the street & get 17 mpg Imperial. Thats probably about 15 mpg to a US Gallon. Also; on a chassis dyno the 650 was only 13 HP down on the 850. I suspect this is because the cam reads quite small in the stroker versus the 440. Another thing also; the Cam! A 110 Lobe Seperation is probably better for you as well. Better drivability & I have 12 inches vacumn at idle & 18 inches @ 75mph. I shift at 6000 as it's laying down by 5800 due to the cam being small for the engine size. Also, all parts except the short block, including the cam, I use to run in a 440 prior to this build. It went 13:00 @ 113mph. It also did 160mph measured in a Car Club Flying 1/4 Mile. Incidentily; one day I arrived late for one of these flying 1/4's so did my first run with the 650 & it run through at 160 MPH & next run with the 850 did exactly the same speed. The jets in the 850 are 77's as I had to lean it down from standard 80's to up the exhaust temps in the header probes. I have sensor plugs on each header about 4 inches from exhaust ports. Probably because the rod ratio is more like a Big-Block Chev & creates more draw as the piston goes away from TDC faster I suspect why it needed leaning out. I took a guess on what I could get away with on this combo so as to just run ordinary pump gas & because my "quench" is damn good,it is close to the limits of cylinder pressure. Slightly big in cam choice would likely give more power, but being to small,& you might lose the engine because of detonation. In the near future I'm going to get a set of Stealth CNC'ed Heads & up the cam to mid 250's@ 050 with over 0:600 lift as they seem to really up the Torque & Power. Because it's mainly a street car is why I'm chasing Torque & good fuel consumption & not "all out 1/4 times. My 2:75 gears only slow the first 60 to 80ft on launch & then it's long gears & great fun. Hope this is of help & interest.

Re: 498 cid 440 stroker build formula [Re: torqueaddict] #1258640 06/28/12 04:16 PM 06/28/12 04:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,046 Minnesota 72blubird master
72blubird master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,046 Minnesota	Big Mike what kind of vacuum pressure do you have? Also does anyone know what the stealth head CCs really are? Tried to measure them but the syringe used was not the best and am not sure. You can definitely use different thickness of head gaskets for compression change. What was I thinking....

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