Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: Andrewh]
#1250895
06/14/12 01:02 PM
06/14/12 01:02 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
|
I'm no pro, but isn't that basically what the sway bar does? it pushes down on the outside tire ("lift) and pulls up on the inside tire ("drop"), as the body rolls when going through the corner?
**Photobucket sucks**
|
|
|
Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: Andrewh]
#1250896
06/14/12 01:11 PM
06/14/12 01:11 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
|
Shock control a few things. The high frequency small movements of small bumps in the road with high speed dampening. That would be the high speed straights. How fast/slow weight is transfered low speed dampening. That's real basics. It's much much more complicated. I'd google on of the aftermarket shock manufactures and see if they have a 1-2 page brief explanation/primer. Here's a video of the front suspension of my car: http://youtu.be/je5oeamQ_uw
|
|
|
Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1250897
06/14/12 01:28 PM
06/14/12 01:28 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,684
Andrewh
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,684
|
maybe if I explain a little more.
so I have seen active suspensions where the car "adjusts" based on what you set it to for track or whatever, but why not take it a step further.
if you know that the car is accelerating in a straight line, would it not be better if the front shocks unloaded or better yet pushed the front up to load the rear?
if you could tell you were in a turn, and adjust the shock to be stiffer less give for the turn or again better yet, push up on the loaded down side to give better weight distribution(assuming this even matters in a turn,) why not?
or does such a system already exist?
my thoughts were, that there is a lot of compromise and the biggest complaint is how great they are in turns but if you hit a bump, it will break your back cause there is no give. but if the suspension was only super stiff in the turn, would that be helpful or a waste of time?
|
|
|
Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: Andrewh]
#1250900
06/14/12 02:07 PM
06/14/12 02:07 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
|
Quote:
maybe if I explain a little more.
so I have seen active suspensions where the car "adjusts" based on what you set it to for track or whatever, but why not take it a step further.
if you know that the car is accelerating in a straight line, would it not be better if the front shocks unloaded or better yet pushed the front up to load the rear?
if you could tell you were in a turn, and adjust the shock to be stiffer less give for the turn or again better yet, push up on the loaded down side to give better weight distribution(assuming this even matters in a turn,) why not?
or does such a system already exist?
my thoughts were, that there is a lot of compromise and the biggest complaint is how great they are in turns but if you hit a bump, it will break your back cause there is no give. but if the suspension was only super stiff in the turn, would that be helpful or a waste of time?
I'd say what you are describing is an actual active suspension. I believe that was outlawed in F1 years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_suspension
I would not call cars with suspension "settings" like street/track, firm/soft as "active suspension"
|
|
|
Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: Andrewh]
#1250902
06/14/12 02:42 PM
06/14/12 02:42 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
|
Quote:
thanks. I guess I misunderstood the term.
I saw the magnetic fluid shocks and thought, if you could add g load sensors to the system, it would be a cheap way to manipulate when the shockes stiffened up.
then realized, why not use some mechanical means to lift.
I see I am about 25 years behind on my thinking.
What's weird is that wikipedia list of car that use(d) active suspension was not that impressive to me. IF, that is an accurate list.
I think there are more economical ways to get computer inhanced vehicle control?? Since cars allready have ABS, I'm guessing braking manipulation is less costly and pretty effective. Maybe not as effective as shock manipulation, but much less costly. Just guessing on my part.
I know the guys that run the traction control setting on their SRT cars I run out at Willow Springs. IIRC, that traction control is done with braking. I makes a BIG difference. I know one driver that is making the step to turning off the SRT traction control and he said it was "another world" for him.
|
|
|
Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: Andrewh]
#1250904
06/14/12 05:04 PM
06/14/12 05:04 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
|
You will probably really enjoy some of the the suspension reading list. Quote:
so on the corners, do the shocks play a very important part?
that is, if they were stiffer in the corners vs the straights would that be better?
is there any reason for shocks to be stiffer in the straights?
Shocks are dampers, which means that the 'stiffness' is primarily a function of the speed the control arms or axle is moving. Think of the times you have tried to open a door that has a spring and damper on it. If you try to slam it open or speed up it's closing, the resistance increases dramatically.
One way to get a handle on this is imagine of the extremes.
If the shock is really mismatched for the weights and springs, the car will continue to oscillate after a bump (no damping) or act like the wheels are mounted right to the chassis (over damping).
In corners, shocks are most important on entry and exit as that is when the chassis is rolling relative to the axles.
Quote:
if you could alter the ride height in the corners, would it be better for the outside to increase in height or for the inside to decrease in height for ability to corner?
Or is it even possible physics wise to get the inside to lower since it is unloading weight?
or does this angle make no difference?
The physics can be directed different ways through geometry. Different suspension systems offer the possibilty to chassis hieght on a corner. Adams's book covers the major ones in a pretty easy to understand way. Puhn's book also covers these IIRC - including a bit on drag race type launching.
|
|
|
Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: Andrewh]
#1250905
06/14/12 05:05 PM
06/14/12 05:05 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
|
One very important factor in all this is how aero dynamics and overall tire grip play such a huge factor in how modern racing suspension is developed. Unfortunately, for our older chassis, many of the overall packages are not going to work or even be user friendly.
If you look at NASCAR, DTM, etc. the suspension is sealing the cars to the track, taking advantage of every bit of air they can. They do this by using soft front springs, huge sways bars, huge amounts of rebound in the shocks, bumpstops, and multitude of other things.
Not saying we can't take some of this information and run with it, but we must still use mechanical grip as our main focus which in turn limits our options. I will tell you that I do run heavy amounts of rebound in my shocks, a big sway bar, front spoiler, and down as low as I go with out scraping.
|
|
|
Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: Viol8r]
#1250906
06/14/12 05:39 PM
06/14/12 05:39 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
HUSTLESTUFF
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
|
I just returned from a visit to Louisiana and drove my brothers new ZL1 Camaro. What a car. It measures yaw, roll wheel spin and adjusts the shocks 1000 times a second. Rolling start in mode 3-active handling and sport mode and almost no tire spin and very fast. Right foot to the floor shifting which impressed him(scared him too) with no getting out of shape. 1-2-3 shifts very fast 4th a longer gear. Was blowing by the MCG office over 110.
I hope Sergio takes a ride in this car and then builds a cuda to match for the same 55,000. He worked hard and got the 4th zl1 for sticker. Now has all 5 gens of camaro. I'd love to take his car on a track and it would probably be better than most of the optima challenge cars because of the electronics out of the box.
"Were in it to win it. Anything less will end up being..... A whole lot of fun doing!!" UNLAWFL
RIP UN
|
|
|
Re: track/cornering questions on what suspension does.
[Re: HUSTLESTUFF]
#1250907
06/14/12 06:43 PM
06/14/12 06:43 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 186
Middleton, ID
curleysracecars
member
|
member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 186
Middleton, ID
|
If I understood the OP's post, I would think it would definitely be possible. It would benefit the car to have shock settings in corners variable. On our drag cars, we run electric shocks, which can be tightened or loosened as the car goes down the track. We run them off of timers, since we are only going straight. For a road course, one would have to write some sort of program that would know where you were on the track in order to know where the shocks should be set at any given time on the course. Would take some R&D, but would super cool once done. 
Kyle Curley
|
|
|
|
|
