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strange problem #1233574
05/15/12 03:00 AM
05/15/12 03:00 AM
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pjc360 Offline OP
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I can not wrap my mind around whats going on with my engine, let me give you all the information first. Engine is 360 magnum carburetor is edelbrock 600cfm manual choke performer intake is the dual plane edelbrock rpm air gap. Distributer is a brand new mopar performance (adjustable mechanical advance) My initial timing is set at 16 degrees with total timing set at 34 degrees i'm running the pink and brown spring from the Mopar spring kit for the mopar distributer so all my timing is in by 2800 rpm.
I'm running a brand new ignition module wich is a standard as well as the 2 pin ballast resistor my wiring is all brand new as well (ignition wiring) My coil is brand new its a borg warner select and my plugs are relatively new ngk -powers and the plug wires are borg warner select 7mm's.
Here is my problem, with the engine at operating temp nd the transmission in park i can slighly start giving it throttle and once i hit 2000 to 2500 rpm it strats cutting out or surging or whatever you wanna call it. And i can hear a slight popping in the exhuast but once i get up over 2500 rpm its fine and runs strong all the way up to 6000 rpm. Even more strange is this problem is only present while in park or nuetral, i took it out the highway several times today and at a steady cruise at between 2000 to 2500 rpm it does not cut out or surge or whatever you wanna call it.
So what's going on here? why doesnt it do this while driving? Everything is new ignition wise and set properly so i am having a hard time believing thats what it is but i could be wrong. Float level being off or wrong or not enough or too much fuel pressure is what i am thinkin. I am trying to figure out if i can change the amount of pressure on my mechanical fuel pump or not? I have read the edelbrock carbs like 4 to 6 lbs of fuel pressure and no more.
I dont know what this is or whats causing it but it sure is annoying.... Any suggestions?

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233575
05/15/12 09:36 AM
05/15/12 09:36 AM
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zrxkawboy Offline
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This is just a guess, but it could be the timing curve. Just be happy that it runs well while driving it!


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Re: strange problem [Re: zrxkawboy] #1233576
05/15/12 10:42 AM
05/15/12 10:42 AM
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MoparforLife Offline
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Do the accelleration test with by hand and at the same time you open the throttle put your hand over the carb in effect giving it choke and see if it gets better with your hand covering part of the carb opeing, Could be that your accellerator pump is not giving enough shot on the transition.

Re: strange problem [Re: MoparforLife] #1233577
05/15/12 01:06 PM
05/15/12 01:06 PM
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California City, CA
dart440 Offline
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I agree with MoparForLife, sounds like it is slightly lean off idle. Could be weak or late accelerator pump shot, or maybe you need to change metering rods or jet size slightly to eliminate the condition. His method to check will work to tell you if it's lean or not...


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Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233578
05/15/12 01:46 PM
05/15/12 01:46 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
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You never spoke about your cam but it may need all the timing in by 2000 or sooner. the 600 eddy's are know to be way lean at tip in!

Re: strange problem [Re: Dodgem] #1233579
05/15/12 02:30 PM
05/15/12 02:30 PM
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Western Washington
Sixgun Offline
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Yup.First thing came to mind was slight lean out.
I read somewhere years ago that basically ALL aftermarket carbs OOTB are jetted and cal'd for SB chevy
Acc pump setting may crutch it, but you probably need to do what the others say and mess with the metering rods.Timing may be OK the way it is, but if you read the threads lately, it all comes back to one thing at a time or you end up chasing your tail, and when you DO get it right, you may not know which of your adjustments actually fixed which problem.
Case


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Re: strange problem [Re: Sixgun] #1233580
05/15/12 04:58 PM
05/15/12 04:58 PM
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pjc360 Offline OP
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Well instead of trying it with my hand over the carb couldnt i just leave my air filter on it? I have tried it with and without my air filter on it and it is the same.
I have changed the metering rods and jets in this carb. It came with .100 in primary and .095 in the secondary. I am currently running .092's in the primary side and in the secondary side , my metering rods are 7047's with the orange step up springs. I switched to the silver step up spring and nothing... it still did it.
Thats why i'm thinking it is ether too much fuel pressure or not enough fuel pressure or incorrect float hieght. The timing curve could be it as well when i disconnected my vaccume advance it did get better but was still there. I have what they call a two stage advance curve.
I have the mopar performance distributer the newer one with adjustable mechanical advance. I bought the mopar spring advance kit for it and i ended up running the big purple and orange spring. this makes all the timing in by 2800 rpm and it begins to start coming in at around 1200 rpm i believe. Could it be that a two stage advance curve is doing this? Should i have my timing in a little earlier? I live in high altitude and this engine is in my four wheel drive truck so i thought having the timing in a little later was better.
I am going to check my float level today, Is there a way to check the fuel pressure? I have a mechanical fuel pump its old i'm guessing its probly a replacement pump from napa ether that or its a mopar one.
Any more suggestions?

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233581
05/15/12 09:28 PM
05/15/12 09:28 PM
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I do not see where the float level would/could do what you say your engine is doing.
Using the air filter to do as I said to do with the hand over the carb creating a 'choke' will not create the same scenario.

Re: strange problem [Re: MoparforLife] #1233582
05/16/12 01:12 AM
05/16/12 01:12 AM
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pjc360 Offline OP
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What will causing a choke with my hand do? And i was thinking that if the float level was not correct it could cause the carb to load up at the certain rpm. Whatever it is only happens while the truck is sitting at a stand still between 2000 to 2500 rpm but while driving it does not do this. And below 2000 to 2500 rpm its good and 2600 rpm all the way up to 6000 rpm is fine. Just dont undersyand what this could be. The carburetor is less then a year old i bought it brand new and it dont even have 1000 miles on it yet.
I always run good fuel filters i run the clear ones so i know when its time for a new one. I did shorten the mechanical advance in the distributer to 18 degrees so i could run 16 degrees of initial timing and 34 total timing. I ordered the spring kit for the distributer thru mopar and i used the purple spring and the orange spring for a stage 2 advance curve timing all in by around 2800 rpm. Could this be the problem? Do i need to have the timing all in by 2000 or 2500 rpm instead of 2800 rpm? And should i run a stage 1 advance curve?

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233583
05/16/12 01:21 AM
05/16/12 01:21 AM
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pjc360 Offline OP
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According to mopar there are 3 advance curves a two stage advance curve wich is what i am running right now, a single stage matched spring advance curves and a single stage paired springs advanced curves. If it is unlikely that incorrect float level or fuel pressure could cause this problem maybe it is the advance curve i have chosen.
Ball park figure what would be the best advance curve to go with in a four wheel drive truck with relativel high gears and in high altitude? Should i change it to a single stage matched advance curve or a single stage paired advance curve? and what rpm should i have it all in by? 2000 rpm 2200 rpm 2500 rpm?
I will put my hand over the carburetor after it has warmed up and i will run it up to 2000 to 2500 rpm with my hand over the carb and if it still does it i'll let you guys know. That wont be untill tommarrow tho.

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233584
05/16/12 01:43 AM
05/16/12 01:43 AM
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Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT Offline
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Have you tried disconnecting the vacuum advance? Yes I run vacuum advance but I've seen MP distributors with rotor phasing errors bad enough that when the vacuum advance is adding timing the spark winds up intermittently hitting the wrong tower.... If disconnecting the vacuum cures the stutter check rotor phasing....


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Re: strange problem [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #1233585
05/16/12 02:20 AM
05/16/12 02:20 AM
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pjc360 Offline OP
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I disconnected the vaccume advance and it did seem to help it just a tiny little bit but it was still doing it. Ever since i shortend the mechanical advance in my distributer to 18 degrees so i could run 16 degrees initial and 34 total i have not been able to tune my vaccume advance with any luck. I am thinking i need to get an aftermarket vaccume advance canister like an Echlin that lets in less vaccume. My current one says 12 and i have seen ones tht say 8 on em by echlin.
But yes one of the first things i tried was disconnecting my vaccume advance and it didnt take it away but it did change slighly.... Does that mean its most likey the 2 stage advance curve i am running? I looked on my advance curve paper from mopar and if i run 2 brown springs all my timing will be in by 2500 rpm and it will be a single stage. Should i give that try?
I'm just tired of all the guessing work that takes too much time wish i could just figure out if its ignition or carburetor....

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233586
05/16/12 02:22 AM
05/16/12 02:22 AM
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What is confusing me the most is this only happens while at a stand still driving down the road it does not do this. That alone should be able to tell if its ignition or carburetor. ut i just dont know cause i have never seen this kind of situation before.

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233587
05/16/12 02:25 AM
05/16/12 02:25 AM
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how do you check for rotor pahsing? if the rotor was phasing waouldnt i feel the stutter while driving down the road at the same rpm? why do i only hear it while its parked and i apply throttle up to 2000 to 2500 rpm???

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233588
05/16/12 02:42 AM
05/16/12 02:42 AM
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Also how do i check what my fuel pressure is? do i need to get a guage to splice into my ful line or what? i have a mechanical fuel pump and have never checked the fuel pressure in a mechanical fuel pump before so i dont know how to do it or what i need. I think i might have to much fuel pressure or not enough one of the two.
was told that could cause these symptoms too?

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233589
05/16/12 03:23 AM
05/16/12 03:23 AM
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will worn out distributer bushings cause rotor phasing? I tried running the echlin rotors in my distributer and it kept chewing the crap out of the echlin rotors. I was just looking on the napa website and they had a performance echlin rotor and it said warning this rotor is longer then factory rotors by how ever much and if the distributer bushings are worn it will most likely make the rotor hit the cap towers.
I'm wondering if that is why i kept eating echlin rotors? Is there a way to check and see if distributer bushings are good or bad? I noticed when i had my distributer apart it the shaft could move up and down but not by any significant amount.... I thought it was normal for them to move aa little bit. I'm going to change my advance curve tommarrow to a single stage advance curve with the 2 brown springs that will have all the timing in by 2500 rpm and see what happens from there. Also going to check the float level and the fuel pressure once i learn how to do that. I will also put my hand over the carb to see if that changes anything.

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233590
05/16/12 04:13 AM
05/16/12 04:13 AM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

What is confusing me the most is this only happens while at a stand still driving down the road it does not do this. That alone should be able to tell if its ignition or carburetor. ut i just dont know cause i have never seen this kind of situation before.




If it doesn't do it while driving then what is the problem ? Why are you revving the piss out of the engine at a standstill in neutral ?

Re: strange problem [Re: JohnRR] #1233591
05/16/12 05:39 PM
05/16/12 05:39 PM
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LOL i dont rev the piss out of it. I will start it up let it warm up to operating tempature wich is 190 to 195 and i will slowly increase in the rpms with the throttle and once i get up to 2000 to 2500 rpm it starts burbling and surging and i can hear thru the exhaust almost sounds like its ether loading up with too much fuel or not getting enough or perhaps its a timing issue.
I dont rev the crap out of it at all. While its running in park i never really even rev it up, i was just seeing if the engine would slowly climb rpm smoothly and it is not there is a rough spot between 2000 to 2500 rpm but when there is a load on it and i'm driving it there isnt a rough spot. I'm just trying to figure out what is causing this. I am going to pull my distributer and run 2 brown springs wich will change it from 2 stage advance curve to a singl stage advance curve. I'm thinking that maybe that two stage curve is whats causing this to happen. I will post what happens when i change to a single stage advance curve. Also going to check the float level and the fuel pressure. I'm going to check my distributer bushings see if they might worn out wich i dont think are but i can throw on a performance rotor thaat is a tad bit longer then factory and if it its the distributer cap towers that will indicate worn distributer bushings.

Re: strange problem [Re: JohnRR] #1233592
05/16/12 08:16 PM
05/16/12 08:16 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

What is confusing me the most is this only happens while at a stand still driving down the road it does not do this. That alone should be able to tell if its ignition or carburetor. ut i just dont know cause i have never seen this kind of situation before.




If it doesn't do it while driving then what is the problem ? Why are you revving the piss out of the engine at a standstill in neutral ?


John - that is a dang good question. To bad it wasn't mentioned earlier. I hate chasing goasts.

Re: strange problem [Re: MoparforLife] #1233593
05/16/12 10:13 PM
05/16/12 10:13 PM
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zrxkawboy Offline
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Quote:

John - that is a dang good question. To bad it wasn't mentioned earlier.




I think I did say that...

Last edited by zrxkawboy; 05/16/12 10:14 PM.

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Re: strange problem [Re: zrxkawboy] #1233594
05/17/12 02:29 AM
05/17/12 02:29 AM
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pjc360 Offline OP
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I changed the advance curve from a two stage curve to a single stage curve and it solved the issue.... I was running the purple and orange spring and now i am currently running two brown springs wich wih me having 18 degrees of mechanical advance brings all the timing in by 2500 rpm and it starts to come in around 1500 rpm. I think i might need a new distributer tho....
When i was putting the distributer back together i noticed that it would not turn freely kept hanging up on the pick up assembly. I also noticed the tip of my rotor has a scorge in it like its been hitting the inside button of the cap??? I can pull up and down on the rotor post and it will move and down a littl bit but i was told its normally for them to move a little bit. I dont know if my rotor was phasing causing this issue or not. How does a guy put these mopar distributers together the correct way without having it hang up on the pick up assembly? Should i buy a new pick up assembly? I also noticed getting my reluctor back on is a chore i had to wack it pretty hard with a rubber hammer.
I'm thinking about just buying a brand new mopar distributer because no one around here can tell me if its messed up or not?
Since changing to the 2 brown springs i took it for a drive and i noticed it feels like there is a powerband between 2000 rpm to about 3500 rpm it pulls much harder then it did running the purple and orange spring.
Is this normal? I just hope i am not messing anything up. The surge is totally gone now tho so i dont know wether the totor was phasing or if i had the advance timing not good enough or not? I need to learn more about rotor phasing and more about these distributers before i can answer what was going on with it.
Should i get a new pick up assembly? is it normal for it be a chore getting the reluctor back on these things? I know how to take them apart and change springs and shorten the mechanical advance and i know how to put them back together but other then that i dont know much about rotor phasing and some of the other problems these distributers have. Somone please explain or tell me what i should do to make sure this distributer is working properly.

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233595
05/17/12 11:53 PM
05/17/12 11:53 PM
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so no one knows?

Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233596
05/17/12 11:59 PM
05/17/12 11:59 PM
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zrxkawboy Offline
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Kinda hard to diagnose problems over the internet, but it just sounded like an ignition advance issue. Glad you're getting it sorted out.

So, do you mean the reluctor and pickup are physically hitting each other? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. There should be about 0.008" gap.


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Re: strange problem [Re: pjc360] #1233597
05/19/12 09:35 AM
05/19/12 09:35 AM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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With no load the metering rods may be in the wrong location in the jet. Vacuum holds the rods down. The spring under the piston raises the rod when there is less intake manifold vacuum. Test vacuum during cruise and stand still, they may be different. The timing of the rod lifting is controlled by changing the springs. The same as changing a power valve in a Holley. Changing the rod itself would be the same as drilling the PVCR in a Holley. Hope this helps.
Doug

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