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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: Moparnut426]
#1230225
05/09/12 11:56 PM
05/09/12 11:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
408strokerdart
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I said HOPE, not im sure it will LOL
I was refering to the "two sides to every story" part................ 
Its still two sides if Customer is claiming the lifters failed because of Builders spring choice and Builder says Customer provided used lifters of unknown history that may have already been hammered on before being put into use.
I dont see how a lifter link bar can fail because of incorrect springs. 
I would think that if the lifter was getting into the block too far and the link bars were hitting the block then Ryan would have machined the lifter bores to clear the link bars.
I cant make it work in my head how the springs caused a failed lifter from them hitting....
Lifter link bar did not fail. The lifter roler (wheel) fractured from bouncing on the cam lobe. The bouncing happens from spring surge when the valvetrain is incorrectly set-up. There was even evidence of that the exhaust valves contacted the pistons. I am certain this would have happened even if the lifters were new.
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: emarine01]
#1230226
05/10/12 12:03 AM
05/10/12 12:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
moparmanjames
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
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Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
The only thing I've seen that causes dark intake ports is reversion, which is exhaust gasses getting into the intake at low rpm due to excessive cam overlap.
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: moparmanjames]
#1230228
05/10/12 12:15 AM
05/10/12 12:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
emarine01
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
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Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
The only thing I've seen that causes dark intake ports is reversion, which is exhaust gasses getting into the intake at low rpm due to excessive cam overlap.
 But why only on the loose intakes, It would have less over lap
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: emarine01]
#1230229
05/10/12 12:28 AM
05/10/12 12:28 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
The only thing I've seen that causes dark intake ports is reversion, which is exhaust gasses getting into the intake at low rpm due to excessive cam overlap.
But why only on the loose intakes, It would have less over lap
Only thing I can think of is that there wasnt enough
fuel and air going in to wash it clean
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#1230230
05/10/12 12:28 AM
05/10/12 12:28 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
408strokerdart
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Finally read where Ryan chimed in. Thanks for the reply. Your memory is somewhat accurate, but you have some of the details applied incorrectly. Let me clear it up since I don't build 30 engines per year and can remember. Lifters were used Crane Ultra Pro, came out of a 410 non winged sprint car of a friend...here in Texas, not a classified find with unknown history. I watched the 50 laps that were put on them, then they were changed out by Wells racing engines for Jesels so I got a deal on a nearly new set. The valves were part of the "great deal" you got me on the W8 heads. I sold the w9 heads that I originally sent you because you said the W8's would make more power. We replaced the intake valves because the margin was non existant, but got the same length since we didn't want to replace the exhaust valves also. Somehow, we were able to do some homework and select a PSI spring (it was also available 4 years ago) that installed at 2.00" (we actually got it in at slightly less). Much smaller diameter and mass. It also has more open pressure than the Comp Triple has at .240 from spring bind, only it is set up correctly. Was there anything else that I supplied that caused this? I supplied a used Milodon gear drive also. Can you tell me why there was so much lash in the gear set that the cam could be turned 1.5 to 2 degrees without moving the crank? Maybe it's my fault that I didn't supply the instructon sheet for how to lash the gears? I can also prove that you had knowledge of my first posts about the tear down....remember who you emailed? What makes you think I don't have a copy? Again, I need a running engine....now! And going thru someone that you have no trust in and is so far away simply isn't the quick way to get it going again. Plus finding damage was progressive, I took the heads off and shipped them out....then found out the cam lobe was not savable......then seen the deep scratches in the bores......then found the jacked up gear drive install......then the damaged rotating parts. At this point I just need to get it going again. I think everyone who is happy with Ryan's work should keep using him. Maybe he has learned a few things since building mine. I will take my chances building my own from here on out. 
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: moparmanjames]
#1230231
05/10/12 12:32 AM
05/10/12 12:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
408strokerdart
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Quote:
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Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
The only thing I've seen that causes dark intake ports is reversion, which is exhaust gasses getting into the intake at low rpm due to excessive cam overlap.
Some of the exhaust valves were not fully seating due to the out of round seats (had to sink the valves .040 to clean up the seats). So, that wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#1230232
05/10/12 12:32 AM
05/10/12 12:32 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
Eric
top fuel
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Pittsburgh PA
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
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When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Getting the "story" straight is easy. I lash the valves every 20 passes (guess I mis-typed before).
Not really sure why everyone expects me to contact the original builder. The heads have been fixed, the block has been fixed, crank fixed, pistons are geting coated,rods are being made, new cam has been bought and ground, etc... Shadydell is 1300 miles from me...maybe I load the engine up and take it by his shop? Or maybe I can ship it to the one who screwed the pooch in the first place, that couldn't cost more than $400 to $500 each way. Or maybe he will just cut me a check to fix all of the damage....$6,500 will cover it if I take nothing for my time.
Maybe you should get some facts about reality. Possibly you would like to send him a big donation so he can right his mistakes? Looks like you get the title of bleeding heart liberal #2.
Well...after reading this I wasn't going to offer my opinion...but...here it is.
First...why no contact with Ryan before this post?....what would you be saying if he said "jeezz..my bad..let me make it right"...
Second...I've had motor failures...some fatigue...some inferior parts...NONE...from builder error. I'm not saying it doesn't happen..but..in your case it seems there were questions on the valves and lifters from the jump.
Third...what do liberals have to do with your 4yr old motor and undisclosed aged lifters...just curious 
Oh..and I'm sorry this happened it's never fun. 
5.53 @ 125 1/8th on the launch control..more left in her!
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: Eric]
#1230233
05/10/12 12:39 AM
05/10/12 12:39 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
408strokerdart
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Getting the "story" straight is easy. I lash the valves every 20 passes (guess I mis-typed before).
Not really sure why everyone expects me to contact the original builder. The heads have been fixed, the block has been fixed, crank fixed, pistons are geting coated,rods are being made, new cam has been bought and ground, etc... Shadydell is 1300 miles from me...maybe I load the engine up and take it by his shop? Or maybe I can ship it to the one who screwed the pooch in the first place, that couldn't cost more than $400 to $500 each way. Or maybe he will just cut me a check to fix all of the damage....$6,500 will cover it if I take nothing for my time.
Maybe you should get some facts about reality. Possibly you would like to send him a big donation so he can right his mistakes? Looks like you get the title of bleeding heart liberal #2.
Well...after reading this I wasn't going to offer my opinion...but...here it is.
First...why no contact with Ryan before this post?....what would you be saying if he said "jeezz..my bad..let me make it right"...
Second...I've had motor failures...some fatigue...some inferior parts...NONE...from builder error. I'm not saying it doesn't happen..but..in your case it seems there were questions on the valves and lifters from the jump.
Third...what do liberals have to do with your 4yr old motor and undisclosed aged lifters...just curious
Oh..and I'm sorry this happened it's never fun.
Hi Eric. I did answer in another post about the "real" origin of the valves and lifters. The biggest reason I didn't contact Ryan was that I was originally taking the heads off for an upgraded port and only seen the lifter parts. Figured that I was going to replace them anyway and yes they were used so why would Ryan do anything about that? The rest of the findings were progressive and got expensive quickly.
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#1230234
05/10/12 12:46 AM
05/10/12 12:46 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
Eric
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Getting the "story" straight is easy. I lash the valves every 20 passes (guess I mis-typed before).
Not really sure why everyone expects me to contact the original builder. The heads have been fixed, the block has been fixed, crank fixed, pistons are geting coated,rods are being made, new cam has been bought and ground, etc... Shadydell is 1300 miles from me...maybe I load the engine up and take it by his shop? Or maybe I can ship it to the one who screwed the pooch in the first place, that couldn't cost more than $400 to $500 each way. Or maybe he will just cut me a check to fix all of the damage....$6,500 will cover it if I take nothing for my time.
Maybe you should get some facts about reality. Possibly you would like to send him a big donation so he can right his mistakes? Looks like you get the title of bleeding heart liberal #2.
Well...after reading this I wasn't going to offer my opinion...but...here it is.
First...why no contact with Ryan before this post?....what would you be saying if he said "jeezz..my bad..let me make it right"...
Second...I've had motor failures...some fatigue...some inferior parts...NONE...from builder error. I'm not saying it doesn't happen..but..in your case it seems there were questions on the valves and lifters from the jump.
Third...what do liberals have to do with your 4yr old motor and undisclosed aged lifters...just curious
Oh..and I'm sorry this happened it's never fun.
Hi Eric. I did answer in another post about the "real" origin of the valves and lifters. The biggest reason I didn't contact Ryan was that I was originally taking the heads off for an upgraded port and only seen the lifter parts. Figured that I was going to replace them anyway and yes they were used so why would Ryan do anything about that? The rest of the findings were progressive and got expensive quickly.
Caught that after a re-read.... 
5.53 @ 125 1/8th on the launch control..more left in her!
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: BPE]
#1230235
05/10/12 12:51 AM
05/10/12 12:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
408strokerdart
OP
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Brian,
You knew before you posted this, you would get flamed for calling out the smallblock "guru". Giving a complete picture, even if it's unpopular is still a standup thing to do in my book. Of course after replying to the post and seeing some errors were made he will step up and make it right.
The problem seems to be that people want to believe that they spent their hard earned money in the right place and can't face the fact that maybe they didn't. I think this site is and should be about learning and information. Sometimes that means you take the bad with the good.
Rod
Thanks Rod.
The funny thing is that I haven't asked for anything.
Is everyone suggesting I shouldn't say anything if someone just writes me a $6500 check? Because that is the reality of what it cost to fix so far.
It's always easier to jump on the guy that says something.....until it happens to you. I hope these guys have an extra $6500 in their pocket to fix their engine and then shut up and don't say anything about it because you will get  for it. 
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: 408strokerdart]
#1230237
05/10/12 01:00 AM
05/10/12 01:00 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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for $6500 you could have built a big block  Sorry to hear about this. that kind of money I would be down for years
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: robnbird]
#1230239
05/10/12 02:09 AM
05/10/12 02:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,148
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,148
Melbourne , Australia
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It's a sorry situation and neither party usually ends up being happy with the outcome. I can understand where each party is coming from, If I had made a mistake I would have liked to be told about it and given the chance to fix it. But in saying that, If I was in Brian's shoes I wouldn't want to be sending the stuff back.
Hope you get it sorted out and running the times it should have been.
Alan Jones
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: robnbird]
#1230240
05/10/12 02:15 AM
05/10/12 02:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,379
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,379
Las Vegas
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Well I believe the point here was the OP was tryinig to inform folks of an experience he had with a builder. We see good ones posted all the time here. but rarely the not so good ones. I think after reading all this we can see why. I have no issue with him just taking his stuff somewhere else. I have been in this business for a long time and it happens a lot.
Some people like myself do not like to complain. If we feel we have been treated unfairly or not given what we pay for or feel the level of service is subpar we simply move on and not patronize the business again. The best protest in my opinion is to withold your money from said business. I know that is what I do, live and learn. I will however share my experience with anyone that wants to listen.
His decision to not go back to Shady Dell is his decision. I dont hear him asking to be made whole again. Although I am sure he would cetainly be appreciative. I think the entire point was to share his experience. We have heard both sides of the issue and can all draw our own conclusions.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: robnbird]
#1230241
05/10/12 02:23 AM
05/10/12 02:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
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Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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I don't even trust my wife, and I sleep with her every night...trust my engine builder, uhh no, but I still expect to get quality service for my money...
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1230242
05/10/12 02:51 AM
05/10/12 02:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
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Quote:
Well I believe the point here was the OP was tryinig to inform folks of an experience he had with a builder. We see good ones posted all the time here. but rarely the not so good ones. I think after reading all this we can see why. I have no issue with him just taking his stuff somewhere else. I have been in this business for a long time and it happens a lot.
Some people like myself do not like to complain. If we feel we have been treated unfairly or not given what we pay for or feel the level of service is subpar we simply move on and not patronize the business again. The best protest in my opinion is to withold your money from said business. I know that is what I do, live and learn. I will however share my experience with anyone that wants to listen.
His decision to not go back to Shady Dell is his decision. I dont hear him asking to be made whole again. Although I am sure he would cetainly be appreciative. I think the entire point was to share his experience. We have heard both sides of the issue and can all draw our own conclusions.
you pretty well summed up my feelings Al, and to Brian, you are not alone in this.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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PETTIS PERFORMANCE............just ask Chris, Al and others.........one of the best hands down. 