Moparts
Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 02:15 PM
Well, I did and it has burned me to the tune of almost $6K. My other posts about my engine tear down pretty much document just some of the issues I have found. These items resulted in the destruction of lifters that left schrapnel to do the rest of the damage to the engine. It should be noted that this engine had less than 50 passes since new, valves lashed about every 20 passes, oil about every 25 passes, etc....it was treated well. Of the less than 50 passes, 2 were ring seating, 5 were to the 330' mark working on suspension, 29 were 1/8 mile (car is under geared and only turns 7600 in the lights shifting at 7900) and the remaining 13 passes were full quarter mile. My car has a 4.56 gear and really needs a 5.0 or 5.13 to be in the proper RPM range for this engine......so it has not been abused.
The root cause of the problems were the completely mis-matched valve springs (yes, you can have to much spring) and most importantly the way they were set up. Good engine builders set up relatively close to coil bind, mine were set up with around .210" to coil bind. They were unable to control the mass of the valve train even though it was all titanium components. This allowed it to beat itself to death resulting in the damage.
The heads needed new guides, new intake valves (titanium del west), valve springs, spring locators, ti valve locks, ti retainers, valve job. Since it wiped a lobe on the cam it needed an new one of those also. The block needed honed oversize by .002 and the pistons went out to have the skirts coated to make up the difference. The rods are at GRP and I expect them to tell me today that 4 of the 8 need to be replaced. Also needs a new set of Crane Ultra Pros. I also did a few upgrades while apart, but those are not included in these costs. I'm sure there is several hundred more $$ in bearings and gaskets that I'm not mentioning. Oh and there is the hassle and the hundreds of dollars in shipping costs to send parts all over the country.
All of this because someone who sells themselves as an engine builder wasn't capable (or just didn't care) of taking care of the details required on a racing engine. No, I don't need to get blasted by all of the liberals that think I have done something wrong to cause this. I simply think that someone needs to say something.....since I know I am not the only one he has gotten. There are proven, competent engine builders out there....Shady Dell is not one of them. I have taken very detailed pictures of everything damaged and improperly installed as well as documented the actual measurements and clearances for those skeptical.....these are facts.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 02:41 PM
Just curious...what cam lift are you running, what heads, and what installed height? Having and "extra" .210 is a huge number. Taking a typical .680 ish lift cam, a 1.950 I/H, that would leave about .020 to coil bind on a typical spring. Increase the I/H to 2.00" and assuming a 1.200 coil bind,that would leave .120 clearnce, STILL .090 away from your .210 . just wondering is all.You may have some weird spring with a very low coil bind number, but that just sounds like a ton.A bigger cam even makes the numbers worse.
Dont know the whole story, but sorry for sure to hear of your troubles. Good luck to you.
Posted By: dartman366
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:00 PM
Brian, you know where I stand on this issue, and as far as engine builders there are two local to me, and one of which you know, and I do trust their judgment's,,they aren't cheap or fast but they are good.
Posted By: fishy340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:04 PM
Brian im torn on this one...Ryan has built 3 outstanding motors for me and 2 of my friends,racing engines have mishaps my buds lasted 4 passes from a premiere engine builder here on long island who used cheap bolts on the rods. i wish you well,but i had to say my part...ps im not a lib.
Posted By: RADAMX
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:10 PM
Should you be able to Yes :::Should you, No.
Unless they are willing to give you a written Warranty. Beyond that I have found you need to check everything...Not fun
Posted By: SB412DUSTER
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:14 PM
I dont trust anyone, that includes me sometimes, as I go back and recheck my-self sometimes
Sorry to hear about this stuff
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:15 PM
Quote:
Just curious...what cam lift are you running, what heads, and what installed height? Having and "extra" .210 is a huge number. Taking a typical .680 ish lift cam, a 1.950 I/H, that would leave about .020 to coil bind on a typical spring. Increase the I/H to 2.00" and assuming a 1.200 coil bind,that would leave .120 clearnce, STILL .090 away from your .210 . just wondering is all.You may have some weird spring with a very low coil bind number, but that just sounds like a ton.A bigger cam even makes the numbers worse.
Dont know the whole story, but sorry for sure to hear of your troubles. Good luck to you.
Cam was a pretty mild lobe (not fast) .434 lobe with 1.7 rocker and about .022 lash. Springs were Comp Triple (948-16) 1.645 OD installed at 2.100, coil bind at 1.130. Oh yeah...guess I made a mistake with my calculator, they were installed with about .250" to coil bind when you subtract the lash.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:20 PM
Quote:
Brian im torn on this one...Ryan has built 3 outstanding motors for me and 2 of my friends,racing engines have mishaps my buds lasted 4 passes from a premiere engine builder here on long island who used cheap bolts on the rods. i wish you well,but i had to say my part...ps im not a lib.
Not saying someone "can't" do it right on occasion. I am simply saying that it probably behooves the consumer to check it out before running it. I know parts fail due to all sorts of reasons, but it is up to the builder to apply the parts in the most practical manner. This is where mine went wrong.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:22 PM
Quote:
I dont trust anyone, that includes me sometimes, as I go back and recheck my-self sometimes
Sorry to hear about this stuff
I always re-check myself also....if everyone did I probably wouldn't be spending $6K needlessly or writing this post. 
Posted By: mr_340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:26 PM
I've had a hard time finding a machinist that I like. Most of the ones around Dallas just hand you a bill when they are done. I found a guy in Tampa that I like a lot. I had him check my "new" Manley Hemi I-beam rods. He found some galling under the screw heads and some on the threads. I doubt any of the local guys would have seen that or worried about it. We ended up resizing the rods and putting in new ARP2000 rod bolts and the dowel sleeves. The big end now is within .0001" and right on the nominal dimension. The rods also had 6g of variation on the big end, so he shortened some of the bolts as they stuck past the threads in the rod, and made a small chamfer on the big end to make the weights balance out. He also checked my Diamond pistons and pins and found one of the pins to have a gouge in it. I guess I didn't do a good job on my incoming QC as it was obvious. All in all it cost about $1k to get everything right, but he kept me informed on what he was doing and we went back and forth as to the best place to take out the weight. Manley had their suggestions, Robert had his and I had mine from a basic stress analysis I had done in SolidWorks. I felt comfortable on the final approach to the problem. It also taught me a lesson to buy directly from the rod or piston supplier so I can send them back if they have issues like this. A racer west of Ft. Worth was telling me about two sets of Manley rods that had galling in the rod bolts. It seems like they don't use enough lube on the bolts during assembly. I've now got a set of rods that were almost as expensive as a set of Carrillos with CARR bolts ($800/set), but still have the ARP2000 bolts. I can see why my machinist likes to use CARR bolts exclusively after going through all this you might as well pop for the best rod bolts you can afford.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:26 PM
Brian I will assume that the engine was built completely
by him and when you got it, it was ready to run...
did you have him dyno it
Posted By: HardcoreB
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:26 PM
WOW! I am sorry for your situation. I would hope some common ground could be achieved? I would never consider going into building business because one major f-up could criple a small company. I noticed you were fair about the chronicling the stiuation thru the rebuild process. And it seems you take pretty good precaution in maintaining your stuff. I know well the situation you are in just wanting to report FACTS and avoid any backlash. I'll let you know when I figure out how to do it. But for certain you are not the only person MANY a famous shop has cost many of us dearly. I guess just keep it factual. Sorry again and I am eager to see your fresh build perform to expectations.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:47 PM
Sorry to hear about the issues. I know you paid good money for the services rendered and it is very unfortunate things were not as you expected. It is to bad things like this happen but perhaps this is an oppourtunity for them to reach out and at least try and make things better.
Posted By: MAVERICKSHEMI
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 03:55 PM
Should you be able to trust your engine builder?
Noo, Alot of theft and poor machine work....
I lost $6000.00 to a engine rebuilt in Ohio...
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:06 PM
Yes Mike, it was run as received. No Dyno pulls, but it was "run in" before delivered.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:10 PM
Quote:
Sorry to hear about the issues. I know you paid good money for the services rendered and it is very unfortunate things were not as you expected. It is to bad things like this happen but perhaps this is an oppourtunity for them to reach out and at least try and make things better.
I hope "experience" has been an effective teacher and keeps this from happening to others. I'm certainly not a wealthy person and something like this can cost me an entire racing season. 
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:14 PM
Quote:
WOW! I am sorry for your situation. I would hope some common ground could be achieved? I would never consider going into building business because one major f-up could criple a small company. I noticed you were fair about the chronicling the stiuation thru the rebuild process. And it seems you take pretty good precaution in maintaining your stuff. I know well the situation you are in just wanting to report FACTS and avoid any backlash. I'll let you know when I figure out how to do it. But for certain you are not the only person MANY a famous shop has cost many of us dearly. I guess just keep it factual. Sorry again and I am eager to see your fresh build perform to expectations.
I try to stay with the facts since they are indisputable. I am also fully aware of those that might want to flame me over this post and I will simply not respond to them. I won't get into a pissing contest over this.
As a side note, I am excited to see what this thing can really do. Quickest times are in my sig, but I am sure it will be in the 5.70/9.0 range the first time out with 5.6X and 8.9X times the norm with a little tuning....possibly even quicker in good air.
Posted By: mickm
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:15 PM
this is a really interesting question. what does "trust your engine builder" mean?
i assume that he is being paid to build an engine, and also to have the experience and quality of work to not do these types of mistakes.
i know many people have everything machined and then assemble the engine themselves. that is what i'm doing, and i have to trust my machinist, as i don't have the tools required to check the cylinder dimensions for example.
but do you pay a builder to build an engine, then take it home and tear it apart and check everything, and then reassemble it?
i'm just curious about this as i'm not sure what this question really means. when i have plumbing work done, i want to see the shower valve before we button up the wall, but i don't un solder all the joints and take it apart to make sure it was done correctly, (not a perfect analogy, but you get the picture).
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:20 PM
To answer the origional question, Yes, like you would trust your wife or family. As for what happened, WOW, just wow. Sorry to hear about that man. I know there are plenty out here who will tell ya to check and double check anyones work, but a complete and assembled engine that went south in 50 passes, thats sub par in so many ways.
Hope Ryan steps up and helps ya out on this one.
Im sure you dont want a complete refund as this is racing and schiat does happen, but I would think something refunded would come about.
Sorry man, that sucks big time!!
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:20 PM
If you are paying your hard earned money to an engine builder for a complete ready to go engine I would expect that things are machined and assembled correctly. In this case that is not what happened. Parts failures happen, but errors and damaged parts caused from incorrect machining, or incorrect assembly or lack of attention to detail are unacceptable. I know when we do work for customers if it is not right we make it right, at the agreed cost. Even if that means we do not make any money on the job. Right is right period.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:27 PM
Quote:
If you are paying your hard earned money to an engine builder for a complete ready to go engine I would expect that things are machined and assembled correctly. In this case that is not what happened. Parts failures happen, but errors and damaged parts caused from incorrect machining, or incorrect assembly or lack of attention to detail are unacceptable. I know when we do work for customers if it is not right we make it right, at the agreed cost. Even if that means we do not make any money on the job. Right is right period.
T add to this, If you have a hired hand who does sub par work, and you as an owner dont have the time to double check everything thats done by your help, and you cant trust them its bye bye time for any workers not trusted. Hard to do, but needs to happen. Your name is on the work.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:27 PM
This is not at all a slam at you,or at Shady Dell,but have you called him and tried to work out something? Just curious,as many guys seem to come on and slam someone before resolving the issue another way.
I would hope/expect him to at least try to help you out IF you followed any instructions he gave you for break in and maintenence.
The main broblem I have with the deal is that you stated he ran in an engine and sent it out but never qualified it on his dyno?
I know a lot of home built engines are done that way but anybody that builds engines for a living I would think would qualify one before letting it out the door.
Just curious.
Keith
Posted By: FASTFISH420
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 04:57 PM
The same thing has happened to me with a well known builder also.I just changed builders and have been very happy with him.
Who is building your stuff now if you mind me asking?
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:02 PM
Quote:
To answer the origional question, Yes, like you would trust your wife or family. As for what happened, WOW, just wow. Sorry to hear about that man. I know there are plenty out here who will tell ya to check and double check anyones work, but a complete and assembled engine that went south in 50 passes, thats sub par in so many ways.
Hope Ryan steps up and helps ya out on this one.
Im sure you dont want a complete refund as this is racing and schiat does happen, but I would think something refunded would come about.
Sorry man, that sucks big time!!
Not looking for any help.....I already bent over for the repairs. The repair work was done right and at a reasonable cost. I am only reporting facts.
Posted By: Jeepmon
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:11 PM
Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:13 PM
Quote:
This is not at all a slam at you,or at Shady Dell,but have you called him and tried to work out something? Just curious,as many guys seem to come on and slam someone before resolving the issue another way.
I would hope/expect him to at least try to help you out IF you followed any instructions he gave you for break in and maintenence.
The main broblem I have with the deal is that you stated he ran in an engine and sent it out but never qualified it on his dyno?
I know a lot of home built engines are done that way but anybody that builds engines for a living I would think would qualify one before letting it out the door.
Just curious.
Keith
I appreciate your post Keith. The issues that made this bullet self destruct would not have been seen with 3 or 5 dyno pulls.
I've stated this several times and will only post facts. If someone wants to use this information in their decision making, then great....if not, good luck to them.
I will not return my parts to someone (even on their dime) if they already proved they couldn't get it right the first time. These fundamental errors were there from the start.
If you had a fender bender with your red car and the bodyshop repaired it and painted it blue how much faith would you have in them to do it again? Even after they explained how "pretty" the blue was.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:15 PM
Quote:
The same thing has happened to me with a well known builder also.I just changed builders and have been very happy with him.
Who is building your stuff now if you mind me asking?
I will be doing the assembly, but have someone else doing the heads/cam package. I should have everything back in my hands within a week.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:19 PM
Quote:
Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:28 PM
I appreciate your post Keith. The issues that made this bullet self destruct would not have been seen with 3 or 5 dyno pulls.
I understand what you are saying,but a lot of problems with valvetrain can be found on a dyno that you won't see or feel at the track. That,and he should have had a pretty good idea of how the engine should have run as far as power and tq. curves go,and been able to see an issue before it became a major problem.
Just an opinion,but am really sorry to see anybody have major issues. Yes everybody makes mistakes,myself included. It is how we handle these mistakes that seperate us.
Keith
Posted By: BradH
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:33 PM
Quote:
I will not return my parts to someone (even on their dime) if they already proved they couldn't get it right the first time. These fundamental errors were there from the start.
...
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to.
Are you saying that you haven't even contacted Ryan about this now-public issue and his first knowledge of it will probably be reading it on here?
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
Man, this sucks for sure and hopefully you`ll be in good hands now. I`ve heard interesting things about your "builder" and I`ll keep em under my hat unless you want to pm me. I hope you EXCEED your goals and that this can be put to rest although I doubt it and sure would like to hear Ryans side............. 
PETTIS PERFORMANCE............just ask Chris, Al and others.........one of the best hands down.
Posted By: FlyFish
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 05:58 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 06:08 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I will not return my parts to someone (even on their dime) if they already proved they couldn't get it right the first time. These fundamental errors were there from the start.
...
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to.
Are you saying that you haven't even contacted Ryan about this now-public issue and his first knowledge of it will probably be reading it on here?
I think what the OP is saying is that the mistakes made are just flat stupid, and the fact the motor was put together like that seriously undermines the OP's ability to trust anything the builder could do to make things right.
I had issue as well with the same builder over several different things with work i had done, but its water under the bridge now.
I give the OP a ton of credit for correctly pointing out what he did.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 06:09 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
I agree about contacting him prior to posting, but this dude isnt worried about sending his stuff back to someone who messed it up in the first place, If he was worried about the cost, which he dosnt seem to be, then take it back to the origional guy. But in this case, he is PISSED, and just wants a running engine again. As for seeing what Ryan will do about it, thats up to him and the customer. I havent seen a peep out of Ryan in a while, I dont know if we will hear anything on this post from him either.
Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 06:23 PM
there is nothing more frustrating than not being given the opportunity to make something right.
this whole thing smells a little funny to me.
Posted By: SB449VALIANT
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 06:35 PM
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there is nothing more frustrating than not being given the opportunity to make something right. this whole thing smells a little funny to me.
Danggg! This is all bad, i know Ryan pretty good, just call him, thats the best 3 words that i can say......
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 06:35 PM
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there is nothing more frustrating than not being given the opportunity to make something right. this whole thing smells a little funny to me.
I dont have a dog in this fight but understand the OP's fellings well.
I own a car dealership and sold a lady a car. It was high milegae and was sold as is to her( 170,000 miles on it)
She had problems with it a week later, and i agreed to pay half the service bill to fix it. Sent the car to a place i used at that time,( dont anymore) and to round the corners off, the work we paid to get done wasnt, but the bill was paid anyhow, not knowing the work wasnt completed correctly, and at all.
Fast forward a year, the lady( who i thought was all fixed up and happy) continued to have problems and took the car to three different garages, who all stated the work she( and I) had paid for hadnt gotten done.The third place did the work.
So she had the work completed, after finding all this out, and wrote me a threatening letter. I read it, called her, and paid the other half of the bill, made her happy.
I asked her why didnt you call me way back when instead of dealing with this lingering problem. She said i will never go back to the shop you used, if they are like this, i wouldnt ever trust them again, i agreed wholeheartedly with her. She was so worried i would
have the same shop look at it that she decided to handle it on her own.
Posted By: an8sec70cuda
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 06:38 PM
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I think what the OP is saying is that the mistakes made are just flat stupid, and the fact the motor was put together like that seriously undermines the OP's ability to trust anything the builder could do to make things right.
Sorry to see this type of situation...it sucks for everyone involved. I've been there before too.
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 06:41 PM
No, I was never contacted about any of this this via phone or email etc... & this would be the first I have read about it, as I was emailed this link from another customer. I do not visit or read moparts anymore so I don't have any knowledge of past posts etc.
Only things I am going to say about it is this:
If Brian had contacted me when he first had issues, I may have helped him out... he chose not to.
On the spring choice, yes I ran it further than .050" from Coil bind... alot of valve springs over the years have been ran further than .050" from CB on open & not immediately caused failures. When I put that motor together in the spring of 2008 that is the spring I chose. I felt it was better to have too much pressure than not enough on a roller that would get turned decent RPM. (low 8000's with a 3.79 crank) Today, we do try to run smaller diameter, lower IH springs that are run tighter to CB if possible on our race builds. Brian supplied the valves for those heads & they gave a very tall installed height, which limited valve spring choices greatly, generally to larger OD, larger CB springs. The smaller OD, high pressure, small wire PAC stuff available today was just entering the market 4 years ago, so to sit back today & look at what is available today VS: 4-5 years ago is apples to oranges.
& lastly & this will be my last comments on the subject, but I felt was a pretty relevant one that I have not seen mentioned: Brian supplied the Crane Ultra Pro lifters that failed & if my memory serves me they were USED that he purchased off of ebay or a classified site. He was aware there was risk associated with them, who knows how many passes were on them or what type of engine they came out of (most likely a 410" GM sprint car?) & how much use was on them. To sit there & say that my valve spring choice is what lead to the early failure of the lifters can never be proven... it's speculative at best & especially so when the lifters were used to begin with with an unknown history. I have ran Comp triple springs on several motors over the years including ones that have came back through the shop for freshen etc & have not noticed any unusual valvetrain issues associated with them, even being ran .200" + from CB. That being said, every engine is different in how it will transfer harmonics etc... Sometimes you just "miss" the proper parts selection in the valvetrain.. alot of times this can be caught on the dyno, by watching the raw airflow data & how the motor works at high RPM @ various acceleration speeds... unfortunately that motor never got dynoed.
Now... If I am wrong on the lifters being used, then I apologize, I build about 30-35 engines a year.... Spring 2008 to Spring 2012 means well over 100 have passed through my hands in that time & hard to remember every minute detail of all of them, but I do see on his invoice that we did not supply lifters, I know he supplied them & from my recollection they were used units.
I am far from perfect, I make mistakes EVERY DAY (I think we all do to some extent) but I try my best... not communicating with your builder when you have issues is not the best way to try to resolve disputes etc. & coming onto a public forum & blasting my valve spring choices again after zero communication/discussion about any of this really tells a story in itself.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 06:50 PM
There ya have it, theres always another side to every story.
Hope this gets resolved.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 07:24 PM
Quote:
There ya have it, theres always another side to every story.
Hope this gets resolved.
REALLY?.......... 
Posted By: PorkyPig
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 07:25 PM
Quote:
Hope this gets resolved.
Lets see - Customer thinks Builder did a poor job and doesnt want to give him another chance and Builder feels burned by Customer for going public with complaints without even attempting to have them resolved.
I think I have a better chance at solving world peace than those guys do at resolving this deal.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 07:26 PM
I said HOPE, not im sure it will LOL
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 07:33 PM
Quote:
I said HOPE, not im sure it will LOL
I was refering to the "two sides to every story" part................ 
Posted By: PorkyPig
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 07:42 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I said HOPE, not im sure it will LOL
I was refering to the "two sides to every story" part................
Its still two sides if Customer is claiming the lifters failed because of Builders spring choice and Builder says Customer provided used lifters of unknown history that may have already been hammered on before being put into use.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 07:46 PM
Quote:
Quote:
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I said HOPE, not im sure it will LOL
I was refering to the "two sides to every story" part................
Its still two sides if Customer is claiming the lifters failed because of Builders spring choice and Builder says Customer provided used lifters of unknown history that may have already been hammered on before being put into use.
I dont see how a lifter link bar can fail because of incorrect springs. 
I would think that if the lifter was getting into the block too far and the link bars were hitting the block then Ryan would have machined the lifter bores to clear the link bars.
I cant make it work in my head how the springs caused a failed lifter from them hitting....
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 07:47 PM
Quote:
Quote:
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I said HOPE, not im sure it will LOL
I was refering to the "two sides to every story" part................
Its still two sides if Customer is claiming the lifters failed because of Builders spring choice and Builder says Customer provided used lifters of unknown history that may have already been hammered on before being put into use.
In the original post there were several more issues(apparently)found and that`s what I`m refering to not the used lifters which are only one of the many issues found. Wasn`t there so just responding to what I read..............Peace.
Posted By: jamesc
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 07:59 PM
these things are rarely anything less than ugly. i have no affiliation with, nor do i know either of those involved so i take no position on this particular situation.
what i can say without question is that i personally know of a couple engines one of which i ended up working on that had such major unacceptable workmanship it's hard to describe.
both of these engines came from large nationally recognized shops (racing at professional levels) that just about anyone involved in drag racing would know of. one of the engines (not the one i worked on) ended up grenading.
having seen the two engines i did coming from the shops i mentioned left me horrified.
competition engine building can be a real risky business for both the builder and customer. often customers do or want to supply some or all of the components which in itself can lead to problems.
then the builder has no control over how the engine is handled after it leaves their shop. not a blanket statement nor directed to this situation but if a person doesn't have the ability to build their own engine (sans machine work) how can one know if they're even qualified to run and maintain it?
i've had many people approach me over the years about building engines and i've only done a handful. it's really bothered me to say no but the fear of these types of situations dissuades me from doing them.
the builder can never be certain or have control of what the customer does with the engine when it leaves their shop and the customer is at the mercy that the builder will deliver a properly assembled engine.
to make matters worse everyone makes mistakes and parts do fail. the builder can make a mistakes on assembly and/or the customer can make mistakes with their operation of the engine.
as much as i've always wanted to get into this business it's a tough crowd.
Posted By: RodStRace
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 08:00 PM
Builder says customer supplied the (possible used) lifters and the (overlength) valves.
Customer says the lifters broke and would not slide out of the engine. Also says the springs were too tall. Builder says the customer supplied parts dictated the springs available at the time.
Customer says he did not like the assembly. The only fact provided here was the balancer, which I also don't like.
Customer runs engine at high (8000) RPM. Admits that the valve lash was not checked as frequently as it should have been.
I completely understand not wanting to send the engine back to the builder if faith is lost. Maybe the builder has a policy that they must be the only one to perform the post-mortem. That is not mentioned here.
However, if you can't even discuss issues with the builder, it's MHO that it should not be discussed in a public forum either. The builder has no idea there is a problem and is unable to address it.
Posted By: CompWedgeEngines
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/09/12 08:18 PM
Quote:
these things are rarely anything less than ugly. i have no affiliation with, nor do i know either of those involved so i take no position on this particular situation.
what i can say without question is that i personally know of a couple engines one of which i ended up working on that had such major unacceptable workmanship it's hard to describe.
both of these engines came from large nationally recognized shops (racing at professional levels) that just about anyone involved in drag racing would know of. one of the engines (not the one i worked on) ended up grenading.
having seen the two engines i did coming from the shops i mentioned left me horrified.
competition engine building can be a real risky business for both the builder and customer. often customers do or want to supply some or all of the components which in itself can lead to problems.
then the builder has no control over how the engine is handled after it leaves their shop. not a blanket statement nor directed to this situation but if a person doesn't have the ability to build their own engine (sans machine work) how can one know if they're even qualified to run and maintain it?
i've had many people approach me over the years about building engines and i've only done a handful. it's really bothered me to say no but the fear of these types of situations dissuades me from doing them.
the builder can never be certain or have control of what the customer does with the engine when it leaves their shop and the customer is at the mercy that the builder will deliver a properly assembled engine.
to make matters worse everyone makes mistakes and parts do fail. the builder can make a mistakes on assembly and/or the customer can make mistakes with their operation of the engine.
as much as i've always wanted to get into this business it's a tough crowd.
Off topic a touch here...
James, very well said. You get it. Its a very slippery slope, not nearly rewarding enough financially, and truer words could not have been spoken. to you for understanding it( not necessarily this particular situation...but in general) all.
Posted By: Hot 340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 12:03 AM
Well, since this is all out in the wind, are the lifters used of what? Surely you didnt..
Posted By: CHAPPER
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 12:04 AM
I read your response, you state "by looking at the invoice..". I keep notes the whole time I am building an engine, as to any problems, things I have doubts/questions about, etc. It is not on a computer, it is hand written, dated, hour of the day, etc. This has saved me alot of problems over the years. If a customer has a problem with something, or thinks he is having a problem with something, or sees something a year later that he thinks is becoming a problem, I can look back at my notes and usually have a good idea what is happening. I am not busting anybody's chops here, just saying that I need more information than their old invoice when I talk to them. You can be 'REAL' sure, if any used parts, supplied by the customer, were involved in my builds, there will be notes to show that and any reccomendations I gave at the time. Hope this all works out. I have always said, "satisfied customers are never heard from, but, one unhappy customer is heard 'round the world".
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:03 AM
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
Man, this sucks for sure and hopefully you`ll be in good hands now. I`ve heard interesting things about your "builder" and I`ll keep em under my hat unless you want to pm me. I hope you EXCEED your goals and that this can be put to rest although I doubt it and sure would like to hear Ryans side............. PETTIS PERFORMANCE............just ask Chris, Al and others.........one of the best hands down.
Seems that most of the best builders in the country spend their time making horsepower rather than posting about how great they are. I absolutely agree that there are fantastic builders out there.
Posted By: mikegeyer340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:18 AM
Look im not sure exactly what went on in this situation , i have a engine built by shady dell any issues i ever had ryan was top notch in making sure that they were taken care of!!!
Ryan is one of the better engine builders in the country and i would have him build me another one without thinking twice
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:23 AM
Quote:
Quote:
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Getting the "story" straight is easy. I lash the valves every 20 passes (guess I mis-typed before).
Not really sure why everyone expects me to contact the original builder. The heads have been fixed, the block has been fixed, crank fixed, pistons are geting coated,rods are being made, new cam has been bought and ground, etc... Shadydell is 1300 miles from me...maybe I load the engine up and take it by his shop? Or maybe I can ship it to the one who screwed the pooch in the first place, that couldn't cost more than $400 to $500 each way. Or maybe he will just cut me a check to fix all of the damage....$6,500 will cover it if I take nothing for my time.
Maybe you should get some facts about reality. Possibly you would like to send him a big donation so he can right his mistakes? Looks like you get the title of bleeding heart liberal #2.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:25 AM
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I will not return my parts to someone (even on their dime) if they already proved they couldn't get it right the first time. These fundamental errors were there from the start.
...
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to.
Are you saying that you haven't even contacted Ryan about this now-public issue and his first knowledge of it will probably be reading it on here?
I think what the OP is saying is that the mistakes made are just flat stupid, and the fact the motor was put together like that seriously undermines the OP's ability to trust anything the builder could do to make things right.
I had issue as well with the same builder over several different things with work i had done, but its water under the bridge now.
I give the OP a ton of credit for correctly pointing out what he did.
Thanks.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:38 AM
Quote:
Quote:
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
I agree about contacting him prior to posting, but this dude isnt worried about sending his stuff back to someone who messed it up in the first place, If he was worried about the cost, which he dosnt seem to be, then take it back to the origional guy. But in this case, he is PISSED, and just wants a running engine again. As for seeing what Ryan will do about it, thats up to him and the customer. I havent seen a peep out of Ryan in a while, I dont know if we will hear anything on this post from him either.
Ryan knows of the issues and has since my first post about my tear down. He either sent PM's to some people or sent some email to a few select folks. I got nothing.
Posted By: instigator
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:38 AM
A 4 year old motor.......oh my god.....50 passes or 5 passes......something broke......you speculate what happened..and I use that loosely....and then bash someone 4 years later....I sure wish I could type what I am really thinking.....I would probably be booted....
some people I have no desire to deal with and you would be one of those types.
Posted By: mikegeyer340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:41 AM
Maybe next time you will not be so cheap and buy new rocker arms and lifters. Expensive lesson
Posted By: emarine01
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:49 AM
Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:56 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I said HOPE, not im sure it will LOL
I was refering to the "two sides to every story" part................
Its still two sides if Customer is claiming the lifters failed because of Builders spring choice and Builder says Customer provided used lifters of unknown history that may have already been hammered on before being put into use.
I dont see how a lifter link bar can fail because of incorrect springs.
I would think that if the lifter was getting into the block too far and the link bars were hitting the block then Ryan would have machined the lifter bores to clear the link bars.
I cant make it work in my head how the springs caused a failed lifter from them hitting....
Lifter link bar did not fail. The lifter roler (wheel) fractured from bouncing on the cam lobe. The bouncing happens from spring surge when the valvetrain is incorrectly set-up. There was even evidence of that the exhaust valves contacted the pistons. I am certain this would have happened even if the lifters were new.
Posted By: moparmanjames
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:03 AM
Quote:
Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
The only thing I've seen that causes dark intake ports is reversion, which is exhaust gasses getting into the intake at low rpm due to excessive cam overlap.
Posted By: BPE
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:08 AM
Brian,
You knew before you posted this, you would get flamed for calling out the smallblock "guru". Giving a complete picture, even if it's unpopular is still a standup thing to do in my book. Of course after replying to the post and seeing some errors were made maybe he will step up and make it right.
The problem seems to be that people want to believe that they spent their hard earned money in the right place and can't face the fact that maybe they didn't. I think this site is and should be about learning and information. Sometimes that means you take the bad with the good.
Rod
Posted By: emarine01
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:15 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
The only thing I've seen that causes dark intake ports is reversion, which is exhaust gasses getting into the intake at low rpm due to excessive cam overlap.
But why only on the loose intakes, It would have less over lap
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:28 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
The only thing I've seen that causes dark intake ports is reversion, which is exhaust gasses getting into the intake at low rpm due to excessive cam overlap.
But why only on the loose intakes, It would have less over lap
Only thing I can think of is that there wasnt enough
fuel and air going in to wash it clean
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:28 AM
Finally read where Ryan chimed in. Thanks for the reply. Your memory is somewhat accurate, but you have some of the details applied incorrectly. Let me clear it up since I don't build 30 engines per year and can remember.
Lifters were used Crane Ultra Pro, came out of a 410 non winged sprint car of a friend...here in Texas, not a classified find with unknown history. I watched the 50 laps that were put on them, then they were changed out by Wells racing engines for Jesels so I got a deal on a nearly new set.
The valves were part of the "great deal" you got me on the W8 heads. I sold the w9 heads that I originally sent you because you said the W8's would make more power. We replaced the intake valves because the margin was non existant, but got the same length since we didn't want to replace the exhaust valves also. Somehow, we were able to do some homework and select a PSI spring (it was also available 4 years ago) that installed at 2.00" (we actually got it in at slightly less). Much smaller diameter and mass. It also has more open pressure than the Comp Triple has at .240 from spring bind, only it is set up correctly.
Was there anything else that I supplied that caused this? I supplied a used Milodon gear drive also. Can you tell me why there was so much lash in the gear set that the cam could be turned 1.5 to 2 degrees without moving the crank? Maybe it's my fault that I didn't supply the instructon sheet for how to lash the gears?
I can also prove that you had knowledge of my first posts about the tear down....remember who you emailed? What makes you think I don't have a copy?
Again, I need a running engine....now! And going thru someone that you have no trust in and is so far away simply isn't the quick way to get it going again. Plus finding damage was progressive, I took the heads off and shipped them out....then found out the cam lobe was not savable......then seen the deep scratches in the bores......then found the jacked up gear drive install......then the damaged rotating parts. At this point I just need to get it going again.
I think everyone who is happy with Ryan's work should keep using him. Maybe he has learned a few things since building mine. I will take my chances building my own from here on out.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:32 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Wow.... This is a little off the norm for moparts.... I was really trying not to get involved in this one, But....What the hell caused the dark intake ports on the loose rockers.... Someone on the planet must have a good theory ...
The only thing I've seen that causes dark intake ports is reversion, which is exhaust gasses getting into the intake at low rpm due to excessive cam overlap.
Some of the exhaust valves were not fully seating due to the out of round seats (had to sink the valves .040 to clean up the seats). So, that wouldn't surprise me.
Posted By: Eric
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:32 AM
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Quote:
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Getting the "story" straight is easy. I lash the valves every 20 passes (guess I mis-typed before).
Not really sure why everyone expects me to contact the original builder. The heads have been fixed, the block has been fixed, crank fixed, pistons are geting coated,rods are being made, new cam has been bought and ground, etc... Shadydell is 1300 miles from me...maybe I load the engine up and take it by his shop? Or maybe I can ship it to the one who screwed the pooch in the first place, that couldn't cost more than $400 to $500 each way. Or maybe he will just cut me a check to fix all of the damage....$6,500 will cover it if I take nothing for my time.
Maybe you should get some facts about reality. Possibly you would like to send him a big donation so he can right his mistakes? Looks like you get the title of bleeding heart liberal #2.
Well...after reading this I wasn't going to offer my opinion...but...here it is.
First...why no contact with Ryan before this post?....what would you be saying if he said "jeezz..my bad..let me make it right"...
Second...I've had motor failures...some fatigue...some inferior parts...NONE...from builder error. I'm not saying it doesn't happen..but..in your case it seems there were questions on the valves and lifters from the jump.
Third...what do liberals have to do with your 4yr old motor and undisclosed aged lifters...just curious 
Oh..and I'm sorry this happened it's never fun. 
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Getting the "story" straight is easy. I lash the valves every 20 passes (guess I mis-typed before).
Not really sure why everyone expects me to contact the original builder. The heads have been fixed, the block has been fixed, crank fixed, pistons are geting coated,rods are being made, new cam has been bought and ground, etc... Shadydell is 1300 miles from me...maybe I load the engine up and take it by his shop? Or maybe I can ship it to the one who screwed the pooch in the first place, that couldn't cost more than $400 to $500 each way. Or maybe he will just cut me a check to fix all of the damage....$6,500 will cover it if I take nothing for my time.
Maybe you should get some facts about reality. Possibly you would like to send him a big donation so he can right his mistakes? Looks like you get the title of bleeding heart liberal #2.
Well...after reading this I wasn't going to offer my opinion...but...here it is.
First...why no contact with Ryan before this post?....what would you be saying if he said "jeezz..my bad..let me make it right"...
Second...I've had motor failures...some fatigue...some inferior parts...NONE...from builder error. I'm not saying it doesn't happen..but..in your case it seems there were questions on the valves and lifters from the jump.
Third...what do liberals have to do with your 4yr old motor and undisclosed aged lifters...just curious
Oh..and I'm sorry this happened it's never fun.
Hi Eric. I did answer in another post about the "real" origin of the valves and lifters. The biggest reason I didn't contact Ryan was that I was originally taking the heads off for an upgraded port and only seen the lifter parts. Figured that I was going to replace them anyway and yes they were used so why would Ryan do anything about that? The rest of the findings were progressive and got expensive quickly.
Posted By: Eric
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:46 AM
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Quote:
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Getting the "story" straight is easy. I lash the valves every 20 passes (guess I mis-typed before).
Not really sure why everyone expects me to contact the original builder. The heads have been fixed, the block has been fixed, crank fixed, pistons are geting coated,rods are being made, new cam has been bought and ground, etc... Shadydell is 1300 miles from me...maybe I load the engine up and take it by his shop? Or maybe I can ship it to the one who screwed the pooch in the first place, that couldn't cost more than $400 to $500 each way. Or maybe he will just cut me a check to fix all of the damage....$6,500 will cover it if I take nothing for my time.
Maybe you should get some facts about reality. Possibly you would like to send him a big donation so he can right his mistakes? Looks like you get the title of bleeding heart liberal #2.
Well...after reading this I wasn't going to offer my opinion...but...here it is.
First...why no contact with Ryan before this post?....what would you be saying if he said "jeezz..my bad..let me make it right"...
Second...I've had motor failures...some fatigue...some inferior parts...NONE...from builder error. I'm not saying it doesn't happen..but..in your case it seems there were questions on the valves and lifters from the jump.
Third...what do liberals have to do with your 4yr old motor and undisclosed aged lifters...just curious
Oh..and I'm sorry this happened it's never fun.
Hi Eric. I did answer in another post about the "real" origin of the valves and lifters. The biggest reason I didn't contact Ryan was that I was originally taking the heads off for an upgraded port and only seen the lifter parts. Figured that I was going to replace them anyway and yes they were used so why would Ryan do anything about that? The rest of the findings were progressive and got expensive quickly.
Caught that after a re-read....
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:51 AM
Quote:
Brian,
You knew before you posted this, you would get flamed for calling out the smallblock "guru". Giving a complete picture, even if it's unpopular is still a standup thing to do in my book. Of course after replying to the post and seeing some errors were made he will step up and make it right.
The problem seems to be that people want to believe that they spent their hard earned money in the right place and can't face the fact that maybe they didn't. I think this site is and should be about learning and information. Sometimes that means you take the bad with the good.
Rod
Thanks Rod.
The funny thing is that I haven't asked for anything.
Is everyone suggesting I shouldn't say anything if someone just writes me a $6500 check? Because that is the reality of what it cost to fix so far.
It's always easier to jump on the guy that says something.....until it happens to you. I hope these guys have an extra $6500 in their pocket to fix their engine and then shut up and don't say anything about it because you will get for it. 
Posted By: BradH
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:56 AM
I've had one deal w/ a "professional" engine builder go badly which cost me a lot of extra $$$ to get taken care of, so I do understand something of the situation. Like I tell my wife when sh!t happens, you make the best decision you can with the information you have at the time.
Posted By: sixpackgut
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 05:00 AM
for $6500 you could have built a big block
Sorry to hear about this. that kind of money I would be down for years
Posted By: robnbird
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 05:26 AM
You better learn how to assemble your own engines. Use the best performance machine shop you can find. I talked to a machine shop who once said to me; quote; for no more than you are doing you don't need to do that. That MS did not want to hone my block useing a torque plate because I wasn't turning enough RPMs contineously , like a round tracker. No I did not use that MS. I know what I want before I go to the MS. I have a great machine shop now and have built several motors useing this guy. This guy is a pro. He will never say well I build 3 motors a month and im only human and I make mistakes. pros don't make excuses for mistakes. Quality controls to check each step until completion eleminates mistakes. There is no room for mistakes when building a race motor. I would never use someone who uses excuses. Goobers Garage and fix it shop is human and has lots of excuses. Build your next motor
Posted By: LA360
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 06:09 AM
It's a sorry situation and neither party usually ends up being happy with the outcome. I can understand where each party is coming from, If I had made a mistake I would have liked to be told about it and given the chance to fix it. But in saying that, If I was in Brian's shoes I wouldn't want to be sending the stuff back.
Hope you get it sorted out and running the times it should have been.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 06:15 AM
Well I believe the point here was the OP was tryinig to inform folks of an experience he had with a builder. We see good ones posted all the time here. but rarely the not so good ones. I think after reading all this we can see why. I have no issue with him just taking his stuff somewhere else. I have been in this business for a long time and it happens a lot.
Some people like myself do not like to complain. If we feel we have been treated unfairly or not given what we pay for or feel the level of service is subpar we simply move on and not patronize the business again. The best protest in my opinion is to withold your money from said business. I know that is what I do, live and learn. I will however share my experience with anyone that wants to listen.
His decision to not go back to Shady Dell is his decision. I dont hear him asking to be made whole again. Although I am sure he would cetainly be appreciative. I think the entire point was to share his experience. We have heard both sides of the issue and can all draw our own conclusions.
Posted By: MoparBilly
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 06:23 AM
I don't even trust my wife, and I sleep with her every night...trust my engine builder, uhh no, but I still expect to get quality service for my money...
Posted By: dartman366
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 06:51 AM
Quote:
Well I believe the point here was the OP was tryinig to inform folks of an experience he had with a builder. We see good ones posted all the time here. but rarely the not so good ones. I think after reading all this we can see why. I have no issue with him just taking his stuff somewhere else. I have been in this business for a long time and it happens a lot.
Some people like myself do not like to complain. If we feel we have been treated unfairly or not given what we pay for or feel the level of service is subpar we simply move on and not patronize the business again. The best protest in my opinion is to withold your money from said business. I know that is what I do, live and learn. I will however share my experience with anyone that wants to listen.
His decision to not go back to Shady Dell is his decision. I dont hear him asking to be made whole again. Although I am sure he would cetainly be appreciative. I think the entire point was to share his experience. We have heard both sides of the issue and can all draw our own conclusions.
you pretty well summed up my feelings Al, and to Brian, you are not alone in this.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 09:49 AM
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
Man, this sucks for sure and hopefully you`ll be in good hands now. I`ve heard interesting things about your "builder" and I`ll keep em under my hat unless you want to pm me. I hope you EXCEED your goals and that this can be put to rest although I doubt it and sure would like to hear Ryans side............. PETTIS PERFORMANCE............just ask Chris, Al and others.........one of the best hands down.
Seems that most of the best builders in the country spend their time making horsepower rather than posting about how great they are. I absolutely agree that there are fantastic builders out there.
There are definately some good builders on here and nation wide but Pettis builds motors AND races what he builds plus does chassis work and his cars have set records and haul ass...............oh, and they live. He`s had his issues like the rest but he stands behind his work and that means a lot. I hope this gets resolved for everyones best interest............Peace.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 09:54 AM
Quote:
I've had one deal w/ a "professional" engine builder go badly which cost me a lot of extra $$$ to get taken care of, so I do understand something of the situation. Like I tell my wife when sh!t happens, you make the best decision you can with the information you have at the time.
Agreed AND, you go handle it face to face and get it done one way or another...........I don`t get taken anymore and do whatever legal or otherwise to hopefully resolve it.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 12:58 PM
My only comment would be,
"I don't checking the lash every 20 passes is often enough" It needs to be checked much more often than that, imo.
Posted By: FlyFish
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 01:19 PM
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Quote:
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Accidents and oversights is going to happen.. doesnt matter who you are and what your reputation is..
IMO what most important is those that stand up and take responsibility when they do screw up.. I'd like to know what Shady Dell has said to you about this mishap..
I have not contacted the shop. I know myself to well as to the action I might take if the result was not satisfactory so I choose not to. There is no excuse for the mistakes made. Looks like a high schooler put it together, only with parts he couldn't afford himself.
If you are just stating facts, then please get your own story strait:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
Quote:
Quote:
When did you check the lash prior to discovering this?
About 40 passes ago.
At the top of this post you claim to lash your valves ~ every 20 passes.
Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, it is how they are dealt with that matters more to me. The fact that you have not even contacted the builder (Shady Dell) and decided to trash them publicly is VERY poor form indeed. Give the man a chance to at least TRY to set things right....there are usually 2 sides to a story.
Getting the "story" straight is easy. I lash the valves every 20 passes (guess I mis-typed before).
Not really sure why everyone expects me to contact the original builder. The heads have been fixed, the block has been fixed, crank fixed, pistons are geting coated,rods are being made, new cam has been bought and ground, etc... Shadydell is 1300 miles from me...maybe I load the engine up and take it by his shop? Or maybe I can ship it to the one who screwed the pooch in the first place, that couldn't cost more than $400 to $500 each way. Or maybe he will just cut me a check to fix all of the damage....$6,500 will cover it if I take nothing for my time.
Maybe you should get some facts about reality. Possibly you would like to send him a big donation so he can right his mistakes? Looks like you get the title of bleeding heart liberal #2.
You missed my point...If you had contacted Ryan first, and then decided to go off on a rant, then that's your business, and most folks would care less. I also understand not wanting to send your stuff back to someone that you believe screwed it up (makes sense)....But what you should have done is be a MAN and talk to Shady Dell BEFORE all this crap.
I'll take the title of bleeding heart lib (even though I'm probably more conservative than Reagan) if you take you title as the new spokesman for Massengill.
You are sending a nice clear message to all engine builders though...a message to steer clear of the guy that will trash talk their shop in pubic forums before talking to the people involved......Nice job, I'm done here.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 01:38 PM
Quote:
You missed my point...If you had contacted Ryan first, and then decided to go off on a rant, then that's your business, and most folks would care less. I also understand not wanting to send your stuff back to someone that you believe screwed it up (makes sense)....But what you should have done is be a MAN and talk to Shady Dell BEFORE all this crap.
I'll take the title of bleeding heart lib (even though I'm probably more conservative than Reagan) if you take you title as the new spokesman for Massengill.
You are sending a nice clear message to all engine builders though...a message to steer clear of the guy that will trash talk their shop in pubic forums before talking to the people involved......Nice job, I'm done here.
Why would you post this on public forum before contacting the shop that built it? That's crazy and I do feel you burned more than one bridge. Good luck, I think your gonna need it? 
Posted By: 70dusterjohn
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 01:59 PM
Posted By: MAVERICKSHEMI
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 02:04 PM
Most people would not want the engine builder to work on his motor again, after messing it up the first time..
Posted By: BradH
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:04 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I've had one deal w/ a "professional" engine builder go badly which cost me a lot of extra $$$ to get taken care of, so I do understand something of the situation. Like I tell my wife when sh!t happens, you make the best decision you can with the information you have at the time.
Agreed AND, you go handle it face to face and get it done one way or another...........I don`t get taken anymore and do whatever legal or otherwise to hopefully resolve it.
I suppose I should add that particular experience was my incentive for buying a bunch of new tools necessary for doing the complete assembly of my engines by myself. I still have to farm out the machine work, but I put it all back together so the only person I should have to stare down if it goes bad (again) is the person who looks back at me in the mirror.
Posted By: Challenger 1
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:18 PM
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I've had one deal w/ a "professional" engine builder go badly which cost me a lot of extra $$$ to get taken care of, so I do understand something of the situation. Like I tell my wife when sh!t happens, you make the best decision you can with the information you have at the time.
Agreed AND, you go handle it face to face and get it done one way or another...........I don`t get taken anymore and do whatever legal or otherwise to hopefully resolve it.
I suppose I should add that particular experience was my incentive for buying a bunch of new tools necessary for doing the complete assembly of my engines by myself. I still have to farm out the machine work, but I put it all back together so the only person I should have to stare down if it goes bad (again) is the person who looks back at me in the mirror.
Me too, bought all the tools needed way back in the late 80s. I had helped build a couple truck engines at my job, so I had some experience.
When I built my first V-8 race engine the machinist came to my shop one night and spent like 8 hours with me until like 4 in the morning. He showed me everything he knew I felt. Incrediably valuable. For the locals I'm talking about Warren from Compeition Milling, Remember him? RIP
Before building V-8 race engines I built 4 cly motorcyle engines, 2 for myself and 3 for fellow racers. GSXR 1100 motors.
If your gonna race I feel you need to build your own engines and take control of your own racing efforts.
Posted By: Plumb Wired
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:30 PM
Quote:
Well I believe the point here was the OP was tryinig to inform folks of an experience he had with a builder. We see good ones posted all the time here. but rarely the not so good ones. I think after reading all this we can see why. I have no issue with him just taking his stuff somewhere else. I have been in this business for a long time and it happens a lot.
Some people like myself do not like to complain. If we feel we have been treated unfairly or not given what we pay for or feel the level of service is subpar we simply move on and not patronize the business again. The best protest in my opinion is to withold your money from said business. I know that is what I do, live and learn. I will however share my experience with anyone that wants to listen.
His decision to not go back to Shady Dell is his decision. I dont hear him asking to be made whole again. Although I am sure he would cetainly be appreciative. I think the entire point was to share his experience. We have heard both sides of the issue and can all draw our own conclusions.
Well said Al.
Brian, for what it's worth I can sympathize with you. I think you have been made aware of my issues and I usually don't complain I just move on and take my business elsewhere. I'm at the point of selling everything and taking a break for awhile.
Mike Gray
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 03:42 PM
Hey Mike if your selling
People certainly are entitled to make mistakes, they do happen and parts failures occur. However when a business is aware there MAY be an issue and make no attempt to contact the customer I see that as going to the core of this issue. Whether the customer contacts you directly or not I fell you need to reach out. IF you are aware there MAY be a problem with something you built I think the burden should be on the owner of the business to reach out. Not simply hope it goes away. Afterall is it not thier reputation at stake here? It seems in this case the original builder was aware there might be a problem. In my mind a true professional would handle things in this manner. I know if my shop ever hears of any customer who is not happy that I personally reach out and at least make an attempt to make the customer happy. It does not always happen but I feel it is my DUTY to at least try. This all assumes what has been posted is accurate but I have no reason to doubt the original posters comments in the matter as this is not the first time I have heard of such issues.
I wanted to ad to what Dom(thumper)has said a few times. If anyone is looking to get an engine built you cannot go wrong with Jason at PETTIS PERFORMANCE! Of course it is not a Mopar shop
So many of you might stay away. Jason knows his stuff. he builds good relaible power. The proof is in the pudding gents. They still hold both ends of the outlaw 10.5 record out here in the PSCA and the car has not been out in two years! If you guys want a guy who do it right the first time and make more power than most at a cost that will be less than ANY Of the Mopar shops give him a call..You wont be sorry!
Posted By: Jeepmon
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 04:34 PM
Quote:
You missed my point...If you had contacted Ryan first, and then decided to go off on a rant, then that's your business, and most folks would care less. I also understand not wanting to send your stuff back to someone that you believe screwed it up (makes sense)....But what you should have done is be a MAN and talk to Shady Dell BEFORE all this crap.
To the defense of the OP.. let me share this with you all..
You spend big money with a celebrity superstar engine builder and expect everything to be perfect..
Something breaks and so you investigate the cause of the breakage only to find out Mr Celebrity totally screwed up with a rookie dumbazz mistake.. So dumb you just kinda get sick to your stomach..
You now have two choices.. you can contact the builder and hope that he answers his phone or decides to return an email.. even tho you have lost all respect for the man.. OR... you can make a public statement warning others that this guy may not be all that he's cracked up to be.. and move on with your build..
Personally speaking, I've had dealings with RyanJ and didnt really care for the product he sold me.. So I have some respect for the OP because he is just trying to warn the public not to be star struck by ShadyDell and their reputation..
Posted By: Twostick
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 05:03 PM
My builder was up front with me about what was what. Parts I supplied were my problem. Period. If I didn't want to spring for the dyno time to break in the cam etc it was guarantee'd to his front door. Period. He checks and corrects ALL parts so if it was done his way, broke in on his dyno and it stuck a valve, scuffed a piston, spun a bearing, he stands behind it 100%.
JMHO but I wouldn't build a "real" engine and not pay for the dyno time. Best money you can spend. If the valve train was really that unstable it would have shown up on a dyno with good data acquisition.
Kevin
Posted By: tboomer
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 05:37 PM
I really hate seeing stuff like this and I hope you fellas can resolve everything.
As far as trusting my builder...Yes! Jim Rickman is very good at what he does.....I would rate him right up there with the best!!
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 06:36 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Well I believe the point here was the OP was tryinig to inform folks of an experience he had with a builder. We see good ones posted all the time here. but rarely the not so good ones. I think after reading all this we can see why. I have no issue with him just taking his stuff somewhere else. I have been in this business for a long time and it happens a lot.
Some people like myself do not like to complain. If we feel we have been treated unfairly or not given what we pay for or feel the level of service is subpar we simply move on and not patronize the business again. The best protest in my opinion is to withold your money from said business. I know that is what I do, live and learn. I will however share my experience with anyone that wants to listen.
His decision to not go back to Shady Dell is his decision. I dont hear him asking to be made whole again. Although I am sure he would cetainly be appreciative. I think the entire point was to share his experience. We have heard both sides of the issue and can all draw our own conclusions.
Well said Al.
Brian, for what it's worth I can sympathize with you. I think you have been made aware of my issues and I usually don't complain I just move on and take my business elsewhere. I'm at the point of selling everything and taking a break for awhile.
Mike Gray
You are right....I know of your struggles also. I don't know all of the particular details, but I get the idea.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 06:38 PM
Quote:
Hey Mike if your selling
People certainly are entitled to make mistakes, they do happen and parts failures occur. However when a business is aware there MAY be an issue and make no attempt to contact the customer I see that as going to the core of this issue. Whether the customer contacts you directly or not I fell you need to reach out. IF you are aware there MAY be a problem with something you built I think the burden should be on the owner of the business to reach out. Not simply hope it goes away. Afterall is it not thier reputation at stake here? It seems in this case the original builder was aware there might be a problem. In my mind a true professional would handle things in this manner. I know if my shop ever hears of any customer who is not happy that I personally reach out and at least make an attempt to make the customer happy. It does not always happen but I feel it is my DUTY to at least try. This all assumes what has been posted is accurate but I have no reason to doubt the original posters comments in the matter as this is not the first time I have heard of such issues.
I wanted to ad to what Dom(thumper)has said a few times. If anyone is looking to get an engine built you cannot go wrong with Jason at PETTIS PERFORMANCE! Of course it is not a Mopar shop So many of you might stay away. Jason knows his stuff. he builds good relaible power. The proof is in the pudding gents. They still hold both ends of the outlaw 10.5 record out here in the PSCA and the car has not been out in two years! If you guys want a guy who do it right the first time and make more power than most at a cost that will be less than ANY Of the Mopar shops give him a call..You wont be sorry!
I've never heard anything but good things from Pettis. I have probably wrongfully assumed he was out of my price range though. Guess you never know until you ask right?
Posted By: Jeepmon
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 06:48 PM
Quote:
I've never heard anything but good things from Pettis. I have probably wrongfully assumed he was out of my price range though. Guess you never know until you ask right?
Ever since day 1, Al has harped for me to take my 572 build to Pettis.. I also figured he was out of my price range too, so went to my local and reliable machine shop.. but next time, I'll be giving him a call..
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 06:56 PM
Quote:
To the defense of the OP.. let me share this with you all..
You spend big money with a celebrity superstar engine builder and expect everything to be perfect..
Something breaks and so you investigate the cause of the breakage only to find out Mr Celebrity totally screwed up with a rookie dumbazz mistake.. So dumb you just kinda get sick to your stomach..
You now have two choices.. you can contact the builder and hope that he answers his phone or decides to return an email.. even tho you have lost all respect for the man.. OR... you can make a public statement warning others that this guy may not be all that he's cracked up to be.. and move on with your build..
Personally speaking, I've had dealings with RyanJ and didnt really care for the product he sold me.. So I have some respect for the OP because he is just trying to warn the public not to be star struck by ShadyDell and their reputation..
Thank you and you are pretty spot on. I obviously went to option 2. I know that my engine was built some time ago and the engine builder might be wiser today than he was then. I just can't afford to be someones learning curve....
I do appreciate the support from those who get it. It sucks for all involved (expecially the one who is much lighter in the wallet). Explore your choices, there are many good builders with tons of experience.
We are all aware that parts break, expecially when you start pushing the limits. I'm no different, I know this. But, we rely on our "professional builder" to apply our parts to industry standards that are known to produce good results and minimize the chance of breakage. This is what we paid for....right? Call any well known high performance engine shop (except Shadydell) and ask them if they would set up your springs .200"+ from coil bind....even if it was a big triple spring that you don't need and they will probably laugh at you.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 07:01 PM
A motor I just helped finish up had .040 from coil bind iirc and it made 1050+ hp and was set up for a 500+ shot..............my heap was around .070..............
Posted By: 70dusterjohn
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 07:17 PM
Brian I agree with what you are doing and staying. We all spend our hard earned money on this stuff and you expect it to be right. Im sorry you have had this many problems and if I could help in anyway let me know. Good luck and I hope it works out for ya, I hope you get back in those 8s......
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 07:22 PM
Quote:
Brian I agree with what you are doing and staying. We all spend our hard earned money on this stuff and you expect it to be right. Im sorry you have had this many problems and if I could help in anyway let me know. Good luck and I hope it works out for ya, I hope you get back in those 8s......
Thanks....and we are going to give it a good shot.
Posted By: robnbird
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 07:24 PM
Quote:
No, I was never contacted about any of this this via phone or email etc... & this would be the first I have read about it, as I was emailed this link from another customer. I do not visit or read moparts anymore so I don't have any knowledge of past posts etc.
Only things I am going to say about it is this:
If Brian had contacted me when he first had issues, I may have helped him out... he chose not to.
On the spring choice, yes I ran it further than .050" from Coil bind... alot of valve springs over the years have been ran further than .050" from CB on open & not immediately caused failures. When I put that motor together in the spring of 2008 that is the spring I chose. I felt it was better to have too much pressure than not enough on a roller that would get turned decent RPM. (low 8000's with a 3.79 crank) Today, we do try to run smaller diameter, lower IH springs that are run tighter to CB if possible on our race builds. Brian supplied the valves for those heads & they gave a very tall installed height, which limited valve spring choices greatly, generally to larger OD, larger CB springs. The smaller OD, high pressure, small wire PAC stuff available today was just entering the market 4 years ago, so to sit back today & look at what is available today VS: 4-5 years ago is apples to oranges.
& lastly & this will be my last comments on the subject, but I felt was a pretty relevant one that I have not seen mentioned: Brian supplied the Crane Ultra Pro lifters that failed & if my memory serves me they were USED that he purchased off of ebay or a classified site. He was aware there was risk associated with them, who knows how many passes were on them or what type of engine they came out of (most likely a 410" GM sprint car?) & how much use was on them. To sit there & say that my valve spring choice is what lead to the early failure of the lifters can never be proven... it's speculative at best & especially so when the lifters were used to begin with with an unknown history. I have ran Comp triple springs on several motors over the years including ones that have came back through the shop for freshen etc & have not noticed any unusual valvetrain issues associated with them, even being ran .200" + from CB. That being said, every engine is different in how it will transfer harmonics etc... Sometimes you just "miss" the proper parts selection in the valvetrain.. alot of times this can be caught on the dyno, by watching the raw airflow data & how the motor works at high RPM @ various acceleration speeds... unfortunately that motor never got dynoed.
Now... If I am wrong on the lifters being used, then I apologize, I build about 30-35 engines a year.... Spring 2008 to Spring 2012 means well over 100 have passed through my hands in that time & hard to remember every minute detail of all of them, but I do see on his invoice that we did not supply lifters, I know he supplied them & from my recollection they were used units.
I am far from perfect, I make mistakes EVERY DAY (I think we all do to some extent) but I try my best... not communicating with your builder when you have issues is not the best way to try to resolve disputes etc. & coming onto a public forum & blasting my valve spring choices again after zero communication/discussion about any of this really tells a story in itself.
Did you install those lifters or did he ?
Posted By: mafo
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 08:38 PM
I take the covers off after every single round, and check springs every fifth or so, things happen on these motors and you need to keep an eye on things.
hope it works out for you
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 08:54 PM
Quote:
I take the covers off after every single round, and check springs every fifth or so, things happen on these motors and you need to keep an eye on things.
hope it works out for you
This thing had a very slow lobe. 36 degrees difference from .020 to .050. Not the aggressive lobes run by so many. This is a bracket motor and we have run three rounds within 15 -20 minutes before so running the valves after every pass just isn't practical. We can put 20 passes on it in 2 days of racing....especially if double entered. I thought lashing the valves every 20 passes was a pretty safe number with this mild cam. New profile is more aggressive so I will change this routine to suit.
Posted By: robnbird
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 09:16 PM
Quote:
Well I believe the point here was the OP was tryinig to inform folks of an experience he had with a builder. We see good ones posted all the time here. but rarely the not so good ones. I think after reading all this we can see why. I have no issue with him just taking his stuff somewhere else. I have been in this business for a long time and it happens a lot.
Some people like myself do not like to complain. If we feel we have been treated unfairly or not given what we pay for or feel the level of service is subpar we simply move on and not patronize the business again. The best protest in my opinion is to withold your money from said business. I know that is what I do, live and learn. I will however share my experience with anyone that wants to listen.
His decision to not go back to Shady Dell is his decision. I dont hear him asking to be made whole again. Although I am sure he would cetainly be appreciative. I think the entire point was to share his experience. We have heard both sides of the issue and can all draw our own conclusions.
well I just hate to see stuff like this, and I don't blame Brian for anything he has done. If some guy claims to be a race engine BUILDER , and we are saying race engine. talking the dyno language as if that would have prevented this problem or blaming the lifters. I would not use any part in a RACE motor if I was not %100 confident in that part. If I build a motor and claim to be a Race engine builder and blame the customer for any part I ultimately used then its my fault period. Be responsible for your own definition of who you are. Be responsible. If you ask for fish and get a skunk you will still have some bone head say you deserve the skunk my buddy is the best skunk cook around. NUF SAID
Posted By: sickhemi
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 10:13 PM
the builder is responsible for telling the customer what he will and won't use for parts in the engine.i,m sure ryan knew he was building an 8000 rpm bracket motor and if he had a problem with the parts he should have and i think he would refused to use them. would anybody here use eagle i- beam rods in a 8000 rpm bracket motor? you would if you didn't know any better. the engine builder has the final say in the matter. the engine obviously had some problems from being assembled with clearances or parts that you would not find in the builders own engine.
Posted By: TrWaters
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/10/12 11:16 PM
"The biggest reason I didn't contact Ryan was that I was originally taking the heads off for an upgraded port and only seen the lifter parts. Figured that I was going to replace them anyway and yes they were used so why would Ryan do anything about that? The rest of the findings were progressive and got expensive quickly."
So how many passes were made with the broken roller? You didnt detect a skip or a drop in performance?
Alrighty.
Posted By: robnbird
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 01:02 AM
Quote:
"The biggest reason I didn't contact Ryan was that I was originally taking the heads off for an upgraded port and only seen the lifter parts. Figured that I was going to replace them anyway and yes they were used so why would Ryan do anything about that? The rest of the findings were progressive and got expensive quickly."
So how many passes were made with the broken roller? You didnt detect a skip or a drop in performance?
Alrighty.
If john force blows a motor who cares but at the local tracks I hate to see a racer loose a motor. valve train is no place to save money. All im saying as a racing engine builder I would NOT build a motor and let it leave my shop with inferior parts. especially valve train. But worse has happened. Im sure this is a good experience for anyone who has followed this post. If building a RACE motor never skimp and use a builder who is very disciplined. Used parts mabe ok for street hot rod , but never a good idea for serious racing. Plus how much can you save on used lifters ( if that was the problem ). Its just to bad for everyone, but especially the racer. he is out for $6500. Im out of here , good luck in the future.
Posted By: emarine01
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 01:59 AM
Quote:
I don't even trust my wife, and I sleep with her every night...trust my engine builder, uhh no, but I still expect to get quality service for my money...
..... 
..... 
..... now that I have injected some bad humor, Hears my ...... I feel for the OP on a failed engine... but maybe used rollers were not a good choice.... I also feel for all the Moparts people who will probably not benefit from RJs future posts... I know that I have learned a lot over the years and I thank him for that
Posted By: instigator
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 02:13 AM
Hey instigator, what has your car run just out of curiousity...........
Was going 5.60's bout 5 years ago with my edelbrock headed smallblock......took a hiatus for a while while I became more involved with wife/new son,family business, and general life.....got car back out again a year ago with about 200 more hp and burnt up the 727 in 5 passes, that I built, going more mph with 6-7 lbs less boost.....I have picked up a new ride, an 87 5th avenue that I am slowly working on and shoehorning the motor into!
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 03:37 AM
Quote:
Hey instigator, what has your car run just out of curiousity...........
Was going 5.60's bout 5 years ago with my edelbrock headed smallblock......took a hiatus for a while while I became more involved with wife/new son,family business, and general life.....got car back out again a year ago with about 200 more hp and burnt up the 727 in 5 passes, that I built, going more mph with 6-7 lbs less boost.....I have picked up a new ride, an 87 5th avenue that I am slowly working on and shoehorning the motor into!
NICE.......... As for the new car, you are a cccrrraaazzzyyy man...........and I like it!
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 04:07 AM
Quote:
"The biggest reason I didn't contact Ryan was that I was originally taking the heads off for an upgraded port and only seen the lifter parts. Figured that I was going to replace them anyway and yes they were used so why would Ryan do anything about that? The rest of the findings were progressive and got expensive quickly."
So how many passes were made with the broken roller? You didnt detect a skip or a drop in performance?
Alrighty.
This engine didn't make any strange noise. I was more surprised than anyone that it sounded fine. Never so much as a pop or mis fire down track and BTW, the last pass it made was it's quickest by almost .10 in the 1/8th mile. It gave me no reason to suspect anything, but it wouldn't have made many more before being catastrophic.
Posted By: robnbird
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 04:21 AM
Quote:
I read your response, you state "by looking at the invoice..". I keep notes the whole time I am building an engine, as to any problems, things I have doubts/questions about, etc. It is not on a computer, it is hand written, dated, hour of the day, etc. This has saved me alot of problems over the years. If a customer has a problem with something, or thinks he is having a problem with something, or sees something a year later that he thinks is becoming a problem, I can look back at my notes and usually have a good idea what is happening. I am not busting anybody's chops here, just saying that I need more information than their old invoice when I talk to them. You can be 'REAL' sure, if any used parts, supplied by the customer, were involved in my builds, there will be notes to show that and any reccomendations I gave at the time. Hope this all works out. I have always said, "satisfied customers are never heard from, but, one unhappy customer is heard 'round the world".
EXACTLY
Posted By: robnbird
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 02:05 PM
Quote:
I take the covers off after every single round, and check springs every fifth or so, things happen on these motors and you need to keep an eye on things.
hope it works out for you
any new motor should be checked very close just to find any booboos.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 02:11 PM
I use to check the lash every few rounds when the
engine was new... after the first lash its never
changed... now days I check it 2 times a season...
still hasnt changed... if it keeps changing there
is a problem
Posted By: 70dusterjohn
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 02:20 PM
I check mine twice a season and thats it. Of course its a little B engine and doesn't spin real high. It is always the same everytime.
Again I will say I have no problem with Brian posting this and letting everyone else make their own descion. I think its good to know. For all... Even the builder. If a mistake was made on either end then everyone learns from it. I sure wish it wasn't a $6,500 leason for Brian but I'm sure he learned though. It just reinforces to check everything. I have no problem pulling the pan, covers, intake, whatever on a need motor and checking stuff. I don't trust anyone. I just wish it would work out for Brian in the end.
Posted By: robnbird
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/11/12 08:13 PM
Quote:
If you are paying your hard earned money to an engine builder for a complete ready to go engine I would expect that things are machined and assembled correctly. In this case that is not what happened. Parts failures happen, but errors and damaged parts caused from incorrect machining, or incorrect assembly or lack of attention to detail are unacceptable. I know when we do work for customers if it is not right we make it right, at the agreed cost. Even if that means we do not make any money on the job. Right is right period.
A good name is able to be chosen.
Posted By: mokid
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 12:29 AM
I trusted said builder, and guess what?? I had motor rebuilt before I even made a run. At $30.000 plus I'm not taking chances. Others on this site know my motor and seen first hand as build was going on, I quote " I feel sorry for the sucker getting that motor" me being the sucker
Posted By: MIKECS
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 03:36 PM
THE BEST THING TO DO IS LEARN HOW TO BUILD THE ENGINE YOURSELF. TRUST NO ONE CHECK EVERYTHING ONCE OR TWICE OR THREE.
I WAS IN A SIMULAR PLACE YOU WERE. I BOUGHT ALL MY OWN SUNNEN CHECKING TOOLS, VALVE GRINDER, SEAT,ETC. I DO NOT WANT TO DEPEND ON ANYONE TO CHECK MY MEASUREMENTS.
I WAS TIRED OF NOT CHECKING PRIME AND LOOSEING IT TO HALF A ENGINE, BOLTS NOT TORQUED PROPERLY, BOLTS COMING LOOSE. THE LIST GOES ON. I KNOW MORE MY ENGINE AND HOW TO BUILD IT THAN THE GUY I HAD DOING IT AND I KNEW HIM FOR A LONG TIME.
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:20 PM
I've been following this story since I bought what was left of
Brian's W-5 short block.
I've learned several things about this "race engine business"
over the years. Some, at my expense. Some, at the expense
of others. Most, from observation.
When you pay to have a job done and it doesn't get done correctly,
it's been my thought that it won't be done correctly for FREE.
I've also came to the conclusion, most successful class racers build
their own engines for a reason. You can't hardly pay some people
enough to care about your engine.
I don't mind being a non-conformist.
Posted By: Hot 340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:29 PM
Quote:
You can't hardly pay some people
enough to care about your engine.
But you do work for other people's engines right? If this REALLY is your philosophy, why should I trust you with building an engine or doing a simple valve job?
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:40 PM
OUCH.................Valid point though..........I trust no one 100% including myself that way I`m never dissapointed......Peace.
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:42 PM
You shouldn't.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:45 PM
Quote:
You shouldn't.
..............
Posted By: Hot 340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:49 PM
Quote:
You shouldn't.
So everyone is supposed to look over your shoulder when you fire up the Serdi or Rottler? What are you getting at?
Posted By: mopardamo
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:54 PM
As long as were are ONLY stating facts. Let's look at this a little different. So what if new lifters had been used and had a manufacturing defect. Or let's say the used lifters were defective and not defective due to 50 laps of use but due to a manufacturing error. As a result the defects caused the failure. The OP has not ruled out lifter problems but BELIEVES that the failure is only due to the spring selection causing surge. There is no evidence provided by the OP that he has ruled out a defective lifter. It is totally his belief.
At this point he has no proof only a theory but has chosen to publicly bash the company that built the motor when in fact they may have nothing to do with the unfortunate circumstances.
Question: What was so wrong with the previous race engine valve train that they needed to immediately change to a Jesel setup? Did this have an impact on the lifters?
Damon
Posted By: S/ST 3040
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:55 PM
People who know me keep me plenty busy.
I saw everybody giving their $.02 and that's all I was doing.
Sorry about all of your issues Brian. Thank you for the
informative post. Do carry on.
Posted By: Hot 340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 05:56 PM
Quote:
People who know me keep me plenty busy.
I saw everybody giving their $.02 and that's all I was doing.
Sorry about all of yor issues Brian. Thank you for the
informative post. Do carry on.
ok. ill stop.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/12/12 11:21 PM
I got a little hot under the collar when I posted Lay off Ryan! but....if you read my post it is to protest the public hanging of what may well be an inocent business and person on an internet forum. I do build engines for a living so I may be extra sensitive here BUT...you put used junk in a race motor--it go boom--tough crud for you pal--no matter WHO did it. Truth is you put new stuff in --it go boom--that is the risk we all take when turning an engine ( any engine) 7500 plus-- And I really got upset with the notion that every engine that has .200 to coil bind is a problem and was not done right--That is TOTAL BS! And...with titanium parts it is even more BS. So...I will just finish up by saying
I hate your engine failed, I really do, I know what pain that can be but--the most vulnerable part in any race engine is the freaking roller lifter axle and needles--we all know that for a fact! Use the best ones made and you need to swap them at every fresh up-NO MATTER what. Take the used ones and sell on Ebay and guess what? Someone down the food chain TAKES A RISK when buying and using those kind of parts. I am building a new Front engine dragster--I have a NEW frame that is nice but I will be using Used Junk for my engine to keep it cheap--I will have a used discarded oil pump that I took apart and cleaned and checked, used valve springs, cracked block that customer tossed ( I will fill that sucker), cam with funny looking lobe where a roller lifter failed a little, used streched tinming set, cracked heads as I will not be running water it is alky, mismatched pushrods USED head gaskets etc etc but I will have an engine that will run mid 8's in my dragster for about $1200 tops. I understand it may not live all season but I do it to prove that used stuff is OK if you are aware of it's limits. I can't do this for customers--EVER--and I never do. Would I use some sprint car whored up lifters in my engine--YES. Would I let a customer talk me into using them in his? Well...yes...I have in the past and guess what? It always comes back to bite someone IF you expect the used parts to be fail proof--if you say I am saving X amount over new ones and I know I am taking a risk --no big --but to do that and then throw your builder under the bus--IN public--well...it just makes me sick.
The only builder left on here to help is Bob George and Andy--what happens if one of his blows? Then I guess you will have no builders to help out--
Check all of Bobs past post, and Ryans before he left here, and the others-- they are all aiming to help folks for free with their vast experience.
Always remeber what Smokey Yunick said--The price of progress( speed and power) is trouble!
Can't we all just get along?
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 01:04 AM
Have you missed reading that others too have had issues? I dont think this is an isolated incident, Brian just choose to speak up. Now you can read within this post where others have had issues as well, they main not choose to be as public with them as Brian but you can clearly see this is not an isolated one time incident.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 01:36 AM
Quote:
People who know me keep me plenty busy.
I saw everybody giving their $.02 and that's all I was doing.
Sorry about all of your issues Brian. Thank you for the
informative post. Do carry on.
Hey,Vic,.........
I have a set of big block Edelbrock RPM heads for you to fix.
Keith
Posted By: dartman366
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 01:44 AM
Quote:
Have you missed reading that others too have had issues? I dont think this is an isolated incident, Brian just choose to speak up. Now you can read within this post where others have had issues as well, they main not choose to be as public with them as Brian but you can clearly see this is not an isolated one time incident.
Thanks Al, you treed me.
Posted By: Eric
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 04:58 AM
Quote:
I got a little hot under the collar when I posted Lay off Ryan! but....if you read my post it is to protest the public hanging of what may well be an inocent business and person on an internet forum. I do build engines for a living so I may be extra sensitive here BUT...you put used junk in a race motor--it go boom--tough crud for you pal--no matter WHO did it. Truth is you put new stuff in --it go boom--that is the risk we all take when turning an engine ( any engine) 7500 plus-- And I really got upset with the notion that every engine that has .200 to coil bind is a problem and was not done right--That is TOTAL BS! And...with titanium parts it is even more BS. So...I will just finish up by saying
I hate your engine failed, I really do, I know what pain that can be but--the most vulnerable part in any race engine is the freaking roller lifter axle and needles--we all know that for a fact! Use the best ones made and you need to swap them at every fresh up-NO MATTER what. Take the used ones and sell on Ebay and guess what? Someone down the food chain TAKES A RISK when buying and using those kind of parts. I am building a new Front engine dragster--I have a NEW frame that is nice but I will be using Used Junk for my engine to keep it cheap--I will have a used discarded oil pump that I took apart and cleaned and checked, used valve springs, cracked block that customer tossed ( I will fill that sucker), cam with funny looking lobe where a roller lifter failed a little, used streched tinming set, cracked heads as I will not be running water it is alky, mismatched pushrods USED head gaskets etc etc but I will have an engine that will run mid 8's in my dragster for about $1200 tops. I understand it may not live all season but I do it to prove that used stuff is OK if you are aware of it's limits. I can't do this for customers--EVER--and I never do. Would I use some sprint car whored up lifters in my engine--YES. Would I let a customer talk me into using them in his? Well...yes...I have in the past and guess what? It always comes back to bite someone IF you expect the used parts to be fail proof--if you say I am saving X amount over new ones and I know I am taking a risk --no big --but to do that and then throw your builder under the bus--IN public--well...it just makes me sick.
The only builder left on here to help is Bob George and Andy--what happens if one of his blows? Then I guess you will have no builders to help out--
Check all of Bobs past post, and Ryans before he left here, and the others-- they are all aiming to help folks for free with their vast experience.
Always remeber what Smokey Yunick said--The price of progress( speed and power) is trouble!
Can't we all just get along?
I want it officially noted that I'm no longer the cheapest racer on this board....
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 05:07 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I got a little hot under the collar when I posted Lay off Ryan! but....if you read my post it is to protest the public hanging of what may well be an inocent business and person on an internet forum. I do build engines for a living so I may be extra sensitive here BUT...you put used junk in a race motor--it go boom--tough crud for you pal--no matter WHO did it. Truth is you put new stuff in --it go boom--that is the risk we all take when turning an engine ( any engine) 7500 plus-- And I really got upset with the notion that every engine that has .200 to coil bind is a problem and was not done right--That is TOTAL BS! And...with titanium parts it is even more BS. So...I will just finish up by saying
I hate your engine failed, I really do, I know what pain that can be but--the most vulnerable part in any race engine is the freaking roller lifter axle and needles--we all know that for a fact! Use the best ones made and you need to swap them at every fresh up-NO MATTER what. Take the used ones and sell on Ebay and guess what? Someone down the food chain TAKES A RISK when buying and using those kind of parts. I am building a new Front engine dragster--I have a NEW frame that is nice but I will be using Used Junk for my engine to keep it cheap--I will have a used discarded oil pump that I took apart and cleaned and checked, used valve springs, cracked block that customer tossed ( I will fill that sucker), cam with funny looking lobe where a roller lifter failed a little, used streched tinming set, cracked heads as I will not be running water it is alky, mismatched pushrods USED head gaskets etc etc but I will have an engine that will run mid 8's in my dragster for about $1200 tops. I understand it may not live all season but I do it to prove that used stuff is OK if you are aware of it's limits. I can't do this for customers--EVER--and I never do. Would I use some sprint car whored up lifters in my engine--YES. Would I let a customer talk me into using them in his? Well...yes...I have in the past and guess what? It always comes back to bite someone IF you expect the used parts to be fail proof--if you say I am saving X amount over new ones and I know I am taking a risk --no big --but to do that and then throw your builder under the bus--IN public--well...it just makes me sick.
The only builder left on here to help is Bob George and Andy--what happens if one of his blows? Then I guess you will have no builders to help out--
Check all of Bobs past post, and Ryans before he left here, and the others-- they are all aiming to help folks for free with their vast experience.
Always remeber what Smokey Yunick said--The price of progress( speed and power) is trouble!
Can't we all just get along?
I want it officially noted that I'm no longer the cheapest racer on this board....
Noted Eric....Where is your new bullet? Bob George still putting his magic touch on it?
Posted By: Eric
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 05:22 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I got a little hot under the collar when I posted Lay off Ryan! but....if you read my post it is to protest the public hanging of what may well be an inocent business and person on an internet forum. I do build engines for a living so I may be extra sensitive here BUT...you put used junk in a race motor--it go boom--tough crud for you pal--no matter WHO did it. Truth is you put new stuff in --it go boom--that is the risk we all take when turning an engine ( any engine) 7500 plus-- And I really got upset with the notion that every engine that has .200 to coil bind is a problem and was not done right--That is TOTAL BS! And...with titanium parts it is even more BS. So...I will just finish up by saying
I hate your engine failed, I really do, I know what pain that can be but--the most vulnerable part in any race engine is the freaking roller lifter axle and needles--we all know that for a fact! Use the best ones made and you need to swap them at every fresh up-NO MATTER what. Take the used ones and sell on Ebay and guess what? Someone down the food chain TAKES A RISK when buying and using those kind of parts. I am building a new Front engine dragster--I have a NEW frame that is nice but I will be using Used Junk for my engine to keep it cheap--I will have a used discarded oil pump that I took apart and cleaned and checked, used valve springs, cracked block that customer tossed ( I will fill that sucker), cam with funny looking lobe where a roller lifter failed a little, used streched tinming set, cracked heads as I will not be running water it is alky, mismatched pushrods USED head gaskets etc etc but I will have an engine that will run mid 8's in my dragster for about $1200 tops. I understand it may not live all season but I do it to prove that used stuff is OK if you are aware of it's limits. I can't do this for customers--EVER--and I never do. Would I use some sprint car whored up lifters in my engine--YES. Would I let a customer talk me into using them in his? Well...yes...I have in the past and guess what? It always comes back to bite someone IF you expect the used parts to be fail proof--if you say I am saving X amount over new ones and I know I am taking a risk --no big --but to do that and then throw your builder under the bus--IN public--well...it just makes me sick.
The only builder left on here to help is Bob George and Andy--what happens if one of his blows? Then I guess you will have no builders to help out--
Check all of Bobs past post, and Ryans before he left here, and the others-- they are all aiming to help folks for free with their vast experience.
Always remeber what Smokey Yunick said--The price of progress( speed and power) is trouble!
Can't we all just get along?
I want it officially noted that I'm no longer the cheapest racer on this board....
Noted Eric....Where is your new bullet? Bob George still putting his magic touch on it?
Yepper....hopefully soon I'll be out finding new ways to loose...
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 11:21 AM
It's done.Trust me
To comment about the original post: Trust is the relationship between you and your builder.In this game shtz happens and things go wrong.Parts break and engines blow.To hold a builder accountable for a new rod bolt that breaks or anything else that fails is beyond anyones ability to predict.Sometimes screwups are the fault of the parts,builder or worker and even the choise of parts or origin of manufacture.
Our philosophy is simple,if our customer has a problem,then "we" have a problem.How it is handled after is how you base your relationship.At BGR we understand that our reputation is our most important asset.No matter what or who screws up it falls on my shoulders to make it right.
We have seen our share of F*ups over the last 50 years and because of how we handled each situation ,those have become our most loyal customers,friends and BGR family of racers.
Sometimes we put machinists and builders on a pedestal so high that it makes any error almost unforgivable.Remember they are human like everyone else.
I hope everthing works out for everyone involved.
Posted By: Eric
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 05:34 PM
Quote:
It's done.Trust me
To comment about the original post: Trust is the relationship between you and your builder.In this game shtz happens and things go wrong.Parts break and engines blow.To hold a builder accountable for a new rod bolt that breaks or anything else that fails is beyond anyones ability to predict.Sometimes screwups are the fault of the parts,buider or worker and even the choise of parts or origin of manufacture.
Our philosophy is simple,if our customer has a problem,then "we" have a problem.How it is handled after is how you base your relationship.At BGR we understand that our reputation is our most important asset.No matter what or who screws up it falls on my shoulders to make it right.
We have seen our share of F*ups over the last 50 years and because of how we handled each situation ,those have become our most loyal customers,friends and BGR family of racers.
Sometimes we put machinists and builders on a pedestal so high that it makes any error almost unforgivable.Remember they are human like everyone else.
I hope everthing works out for everyone involved.
Nice!!!....a bit of good news interjected into this thread
Posted By: emarine01
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 07:43 PM
What came first the roller or the spring.... In the start of this post the OP used the word fact several times stating that the spring caused the failure. After reading posts on other sites & the opinions of other race engine builders it seams that this lifter has been known not to like seat pressures over 300lbs, The fact is we really don't know if this is true or false, It is just the opinion of others that have seen this type of failure. Race engines by nature tend to push the limits of parts & design. Without proper failure diagnosis the OPs failure is speculative at best. It seems that race engine shops are just as competitive as racers & some are fast to blame a failure on someone else's work, I also feel that TRUST is a two way street, To not communicate with your builder weather before or after the fact seems counter productive to both parties, Then on top of that to share your opinion on a public form with others that may have a axe to grind over the years this shop has been building race engines is just not right.... The bottom line is race engines fail and there are not that many people qualified to state fact rather than opinion. Its way too easy to just throw a builder under the buss using opinions. Was this post intended to warn other racers or vent some steam? Failure posts should be about corrective measures not blame. I do not know the OP and I have no connection what so ever with the builder except I have been following his posts for years and have found them very informative and accurate.I feel posts of this nature tend to push the people best qualified to contribute to this site away and why some posters with the most experience are getting a little bitter with replies, The availability of cutting edge Mopar small block people are few compared to Chevies & Fords So what do we have for our reading future some Hi tec lug nut posts
Posted By: rt66jim
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 08:45 PM
Quote:
What came first the roller or the spring.... In the start of this post the OP used the word fact several times stating that the spring caused the failure. After reading posts on other sites & the opinions of other race engine builders it seams that this lifter has been known not to like seat pressures over 300lbs, The fact is we really don't know if this is true or false, It is just the opinion of others that have seen this type of failure. Race engines by nature tend to push the limits of parts & design. Without proper failure diagnosis the OPs failure is speculative at best. It seems that race engine shops are just as competitive as racers & some are fast to blame a failure on someone else's work, I also feel that TRUST is a two way street, To not communicate with your builder weather before or after the fact seems counter productive to both parties, Then on top of that to share your opinion on a public form with others that may have a axe to grind over the years this shop has been building race engines is just not right.... The bottom line is race engines fail and there are not that many people qualified to state fact rather than opinion. Its way too easy to just throw a builder under the buss using opinions. Was this post intended to warn other racers or vent some steam? Failure posts should be about corrective measures not blame. I do not know the OP and I have no connection what so ever with the builder except I have been following his posts for years and have found them very informative and accurate.I feel posts of this nature tend to push the people best qualified to contribute to this site away and why some posters with the most experience are getting a little bitter with replies, The availability of cutting edge Mopar small block people are few compared to Chevies & Fords So what do we have for our reading future some Hi tec lug nut posts
x2
Posted By: fatman
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 09:06 PM
X3. This situation is full of grey areas, yet so full of strident opinion.
Posted By: Hot 340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 09:10 PM
Quote:
What came first the roller or the spring.... In the start of this post the OP used the word fact several times stating that the spring caused the failure. After reading posts on other sites & the opinions of other race engine builders it seams that this lifter has been known not to like seat pressures over 300lbs, The fact is we really don't know if this is true or false, It is just the opinion of others that have seen this type of failure. Race engines by nature tend to push the limits of parts & design. Without proper failure diagnosis the OPs failure is speculative at best. It seems that race engine shops are just as competitive as racers & some are fast to blame a failure on someone else's work, I also feel that TRUST is a two way street, To not communicate with your builder weather before or after the fact seems counter productive to both parties, Then on top of that to share your opinion on a public form with others that may have a axe to grind over the years this shop has been building race engines is just not right.... The bottom line is race engines fail and there are not that many people qualified to state fact rather than opinion. Its way too easy to just throw a builder under the buss using opinions. Was this post intended to warn other racers or vent some steam? Failure posts should be about corrective measures not blame. I do not know the OP and I have no connection what so ever with the builder except I have been following his posts for years and have found them very informative and accurate.I feel posts of this nature tend to push the people best qualified to contribute to this site away and why some posters with the most experience are getting a little bitter with replies, The availability of cutting edge Mopar small block people are few compared to Chevies & Fords So what do we have for our reading future some Hi tec lug nut posts
x4. especially on the others that have an axe to grind.
Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/13/12 10:55 PM
To answer the original question..
I would say that you "SHOULD" be able to trust your machinist/builder..
However, if something goes amiss then from my past experiences, I would say find someone else..
I'm still fixing the problems of my EX-machinist/builder..
I trusted him, and when there was a problem, he said he fixed me up.. Cost me more $$$ too..
Guess what, more issues..
So when I had some of my problems fixed.. .002-.004 piston to bore by another top machinist/builder
The short block was much better.. So I started telling people of my issues, and it got back to the original machinist..
Here's where it gets back to Brian's point..
The original shop told me he would fix my still existing valve train issues for free.. That's right "FREE"..
So I took the whole engine to him, and gave him a chance to make good on his bad machine work..
So when I got the engine back, he said "Put it in and run it"
I said.. "No lash adjustments or anything?" He said.. "Nope, your good to go and this ones on me so please stop saying bad things about me"
When we got the engine back home, myself and Robbie started looking things over..
Noticed the lash was written on the intake.. .027-.024..
I call him and ask if that's what he set the lash at.. Yep cold.. (I have an all aluminum B1) so that would be about .041 hot..
Okay, now we're checking everything..
Found out that he re-used my old head gaskets, even though I gave him new ones, and painted them with silver spray paint.
So when we pull the heads we find out that the pass head wasn't even seated all the way down.. Dowel pin issue he never saw.. Must have damaged at his shop.
Water would have just filled cylinders in the rear.. (BTW.. he lost my head studs too, and said I never brought them)..
We also found a few rocker studs nuts were only holding 2-3 threads and would have surely come off.
Anyway, we put it back together and it ran well, but as I've posted before, I had valve train issues, (Al saw first hand) that were totally the result of faulty or never done at all machine work..
Just got my heads back, from a reputable Mopar Shop.. After 30 runs from "THE SHOP I TRUSTED" the heads needed all new guides.. (supposedly already done) new intake seats.. (badly beaten because of bad guides)
So now after another pile of $$$$ in this deal, I would say that I "Should Never Have Trusted This Shop" after the first crappy work..
EVEN FOR FREE..
I feel you Brian..
Chris..
Posted By: poppaj
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 12:08 AM
I have seen motors with the best parts (All New) fail on the dyno and on the other hand I have seen many motors with used parts through out still running strong after 500+ passes
Don't think it was a mistake from the builder, just think a part let-go.. Hate to hear it happened, but that is racing..poppaj
Posted By: dc426
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 12:10 AM
You SHOULD be able to trust your builder, but I have found that you CAN'T!
DC
Posted By: BPE
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 12:44 AM
I don't think it's just about having an axe to grind for some (me included). If someone told you to put SIR I-beam rods in your 500 HP drag engine would you do it? Of course not, but you probobly learned better from others experiences. If others have had bad experiences I think it would be beneficial to all of us to know it, so we don't make the same mistakes. Just because Brian chose to speak up doesn't make it wrong and may save some a lot of money.
Rod
Posted By: fishy340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 01:06 AM
this is Brians issue,and i feel for him!! the rest are all just pileing on..Ryan has 4 sdss motors out here from A 481CI to 418 and all are strong and get uses a ton..you other arm chair qb's are something else,,,as i look at old post and not a word being said about sdss..this man posted every speck of info on 5 6 an 700hp combos for FREE...and you bomb on him for a mistake with all due respect were not sure is even his fault!! shame on you other guys..and bpe we can see a motive with you because Ryan didnt push for you cranks>..im done..ps i like Brian and i feel this hole thing stinks..especially when a man's income and rep are out there..piece
Posted By: BPE
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 01:25 AM
If you think Ryan's word is going to make or break my business you sir are sadly mistaken. You have no idea who I am or why I would even throw my
in on this post. If you are happy with him stick with what works for you. No hard feelings on my part.
Rod
Posted By: dartman366
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 01:55 AM
Quote:
this is Brians issue,and i feel for him!! the rest are all just pileing on..Ryan has 4 sdss motors out here from A 481CI to 418 and all are strong and get uses a ton..you other arm chair qb's are something else,,,as i look at old post and not a word being said about sdss..this man posted every speck of info on 5 6 an 700hp combos for FREE...and you bomb on him for a mistake with all due respect were not sure is even his fault!! shame on you other guys..and bpe we can see a motive with you because Ryan didnt push for you cranks>..im done..ps i like Brian and i feel this hole thing stinks..especially when a man's income and rep are out there..piece
After 1 season and had to repair 4 guides in 1 head(cannot remember how many in the other) because they decided to slide towards the valve head because they were not machined correctly,,are you kidding me!,that was not a parts failure, that was in the machining, you do not want to know what my present machinist/builder had to say about that mess that he ended up fixing,,
Posted By: fishy340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 02:09 AM
i have never thrown a buisness under the bus& i could have,its not my style(unless the guy tells me to blank myself,then i could lol,and trust me i've had some issues.I just wont use that company anymore,my issue is that in the few yrs i've been on moparts,there is only 1 member who doesn't make it a secret he wasnt happy w sdss...now 4 or 5 people pop out.I really feel for anyone who gets involved in race engines,its risky as hell(i'm about to spray the hell out of a 17.000 motor so trust me i know)
Posted By: dartman366
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 03:13 AM
Quote:
i have never thrown a buisness under the bus& i could have,its not my style(unless the guy tells me to blank myself,then i could lol,and trust me i've had some issues.I just wont use that company anymore,my issue is that in the few yrs i've been on moparts,there is only 1 member who doesn't make it a secret he wasnt happy w sdss...now 4 or 5 people pop out.I really feel for anyone who gets involved in race engines,its risky as hell(i'm about to spray the hell out of a 17.000 motor so trust me i know)
That's because like you we chose not to bad mouth anyone just move on and don't look back, but when Brian spoke up and started to get piled on then it was time to let it known, that he was not alone in this.
Posted By: fishy340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 03:24 AM
i hear ya, my advice from rj has been pretty dead on,example on my w9's his advice was not to use mp w9 with there guides seats there cheap from mp etc(sometimes people dont have the choice they give him what they have),as they are kinda crappy...if you want to go all out with your w9 motor AND have the extra$$ for them go with Kent Ritter blanks and use cv products this an that...
Posted By: moparguy7074
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 03:37 AM
Well, I trust mine, but I'm luckier than most here. I've known him for over 40 years, as he is my brother.
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 04:54 AM
Quote:
You SHOULD be able to trust your builder, but I have found that you CAN'T!
DC
Oh boy, not another can of worms.
But, I will add, race motors have alot of associated risks involved. Alot!
Posted By: His and Her 69's
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 07:42 AM
I TRUST MY ENGINE BUILDER!!!
I am also like Brian/moparguy7074 as Mike has done all my motors
and have always performed Great. Sometimes I would like to get the motors done sooner but when he does get them done I KNOW EVERYTHING will be RIGHT. He has a lot of loyal customers and he is always busy.
He also builds whatever anyone brings to him for work, fords, chevys, mopars, even caddy motors. (he was mentioned on hotrod tv sunday)
I am Sorry for Brain's engine problems and I Hope he gets it going again, better stronger and faster.
David
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 02:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
i have never thrown a buisness under the bus& i could have,its not my style(unless the guy tells me to blank myself,then i could lol,and trust me i've had some issues.I just wont use that company anymore,my issue is that in the few yrs i've been on moparts,there is only 1 member who doesn't make it a secret he wasnt happy w sdss...now 4 or 5 people pop out.I really feel for anyone who gets involved in race engines,its risky as hell(i'm about to spray the hell out of a 17.000 motor so trust me i know)
That's because like you we chose not to bad mouth anyone just move on and don't look back, but when Brian spoke up and started to get piled on then it was time to let it known, that he was not alone in this.
Hey Bill.....I think I am up to 23 unique users that I have received PM's from. I won't out them because I wouldn't do that as I know they have told me their stories in trust. It doesn't make it hurt (financially) less, but does make me feel better knowing I'm not alone.
To address one thing that was said, I do have alot of experience in diagnosing failures in machinery of all kinds. There is indeed some speculation on the valvetrain failure, but based on visual inspection of the parts, the set-up of the parts, the selection of the parts, etc......you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that things aren't right. So, was it speculation when I found the crank key sheared along the length? Or maybe it was speculation when I bolted a degree wheel on and found almost 2 degrees of lash in the gear drive. Am I "speculating" that it was installed wrong since the installation sets the lash? When simple things are done wrong, it makes you wary of everything.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 02:23 PM
Quote:
I TRUST MY ENGINE BUILDER!!!
I am also like Brian/moparguy7074 as Mike has done all my motors
and have always performed Great. Sometimes I would like to get the motors done sooner but when he does get them done I KNOW EVERYTHING will be RIGHT. He has a lot of loyal customers and he is always busy.
He also builds whatever anyone brings to him for work, fords, chevys, mopars, even caddy motors. (he was mentioned on hotrod tv sunday)
I am Sorry for Brain's engine problems and I Hope he gets it going again, better stronger and faster.
David
Thanks David. It will be all three of those things.
Posted By: 1Fast340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 05:05 PM
nope i dont trust my enginebuilder the least i have known him for 30years and i see that misserable SOB in the mirror every morning.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 05:24 PM
So just because one person comes forward about an issue they had and others chime in with thier less than expected results it makes thier concerns somehow piling on? Some folks do not want to put up with the DRAMA that things like this cause. You can call it what you like, piling on if you wish. I think it has brought a potential issue to the surface. Also that issue seems to be substantiated by others as well. Seems none of these folks have an axe to grind they are just shedding more light on the subject.
Choose to see it any way you like, I am happy some have been happy with their results. The one thing I have noticed however is those who are very happy tend to be within a relatively close proximity of the shop in question. The issues I am aware of are way out west from PA. Just an observation, although there seems to be one fairly close as well. I have received a PM or five about this as well. Seems the issues are more prevelant the farether away from PA you get. Just an observation...
As eluded to hear the difference between a good shop and a great shop is HOW the handle issues that arise. All shops have issues from time to time. The way it is handled in my opinion says WAY more about a shop than any other endorsement from another customer ever can. Service after the sale is as important if not moreso than how the intiial transaction is handled. Just my opinion but if you want to know what keeps me coming back to a business this is the key.
Posted By: justinp61
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 05:51 PM
IMHO this a lose, lose situation that nothing good is going to come from and I hate it both of parties.
I met Brian at Bowling Green several years ago, a super nice guy
. He let me, a complete stranger crawl all over and under his (very nice)Dart and take photos, then took the time to answer all the dumb questions I had
.
I have never met Ryan, although we have had several conversations on the phone and he did freshen my heads before I built my 408. In my dealings with him I had no issues.
I do all of my engine building except for the machine work, that way I know exactly what I have. All the measurements, clearences and assembly notes are written in a note book in the shop.
Posted By: fishy340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 07:31 PM
Quote:
So just because one person comes forward about an issue they had and others chime in with thier less than expected results it makes thier concerns somehow piling on? Some folks do not want to put up with the DRAMA that things like this cause. You can call it what you like, piling on if you wish. I think it has brought a potential issue to the surface. Also that issue seems to be substantiated by others as well. Seems none of these folks have an axe to grind they are just shedding more light on the subject.
Choose to see it any way you like, I am happy some have been happy with their results. The one thing I have noticed however is those who are very happy tend to be within a relatively close proximity of the shop in question. The issues I am aware of are way out west from PA. Just an observation, although there seems to be one fairly close as well. I have received a PM or five about this as well. Seems the issues are more prevelant the farether away from PA you get. Just an observation...
As eluded to hear the difference between a good shop and a great shop is HOW the handle issues that arise. All shops have issues from time to time. The way it is handled in my opinion says WAY more about a shop than any other endorsement from another customer ever can. Service after the sale is as important if not moreso than how the intiial transaction is handled. Just my opinion but if you want to know what keeps me coming back to a business this is the key.
2 issues you mention great shop is when issues arise,i'm pretty sure if this issue was done by phone or email rj probably would have made good,or said its not my fault,,we will never know,,,as far as to the issue of being close or far away,thats just bs Al...take a look in ryans shop for orders on things as far away as australia.im damn sure sure the effort for who ever you are is the same!
Posted By: Thor500
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 07:59 PM
Quote:
You SHOULD be able to trust your builder, but I have found that you CAN'T!
DC
We're in the same neck of the woods, if there is is someone you feel that I should stear clear of, send me a pm.I've read enough of your posts to value your opinion. Good Mopar builders are hard to find down here, bad ones not so much.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 08:22 PM
Call it what you want. Belive what you will. I am not stating my opinion I am stating what I have seen. I am sure there are happy left coast SDSS customers no doubt, Just stating what seems to be the obvious at this point. I see no one making any less that stellar claims from the srurroudning area of the shop. It is what it is!
I know personally of a few folks over hear on the left coast who have had quality control issues with parts from SDSS. How do I know, we helped them rectify the problems. As well as at least three other people who had ssues with this shop as well, one of which who has chimed in on this thread. I would not get on e thread and say anything about a shop if I believed it was an isolated incident. In this case I have heard enough rumblings about the shop in question. Just took a brave soul to step forward and share his experience. His story has apparently made others comfortable enough to mention they too have had issues with SDSS. I have never dealt with them personally only been involoved in helping customers from there that were not happy with what was done.
As for the business side, just becuase someone does not choose to pick up a phone and call the original shop does not mean there is not an issue. If we find out a customer is unhappy I reach out. I do not wait for them to call me, we get ahold of them and do what ever necessary to rectify the situation. If that means paying the bill to have someone else fix something then so be it. If that is what our customer wants then that is what our customer gets. If they simly want a refund for the work then we woudl glady do that as well. I have found that generally when you reach out to unhappy customers a compromise can be reached where everyone is happy. But if a full refund is what it takes then so be it. Not trying to get rich doing this stuff.
In the end I doubt highly if this will have much of an affect on Ruyan's business. Moparts is a VERY VERY small segment of the Mopar community. Obviously many of SDSS's customers are very happy with what they have had done there. There are alos those who are less than happy with what was done. In the end hopefully this will be a learning experience for everyone involoved.
The phrase Caveat Emptor certainly applies here as always in this business. I have been in the industry for 30 years and I know we nor is anyone else perfect. What seperats us is how we choose to treat the bad situations. Not the good one...You only get one chance to make an impression.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 08:23 PM
Quote:
Quote:
im damn sure sure the effort for who ever you are is the same!
Obviously this is NOT the case here...Just saying if it were there would be no post on the subject!
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 09:32 PM
Never having had the reputation as the bashfull sort, and actually kind of proud of myself for calling a spade a spade, i will quickly relate an issue i had with SDSS.
Few years back i had a set of w5 heads ported by sdss.
I had them sent to Best Machine and a whole engine put together( which i might add i never had any issues with, beat on it for years, and the current owner after a Best freshen up/upgrade continues to do..to this day.
I got a call from Chuck at Best and drove down to Detroit to see for myself his concern with the heads. 3 or 4 of the spring pockets were so thin that Chuck easily took a pencil and pushed holes all the way through them....not good when planning to run a roller with some associated spring pressure.
Chuck repaired them, and thought we should pressure test them...they were sprinklers, again, were fixed and made to be usuable.
I was quite surprised they were sent out of SDSS in that way, had someone not looked them over good...well i shudder to think..
Just a couple of issues that come to mind from my own personal first hand experience.
To SdSS credit, that was i believe the first set the shop had done, but still sending that junk out was unpardonable.
Having had several excellent experiences with Best Machine, and earlier along, Hensley, i would have no problems recommending either shop, particularly Best Machine.
Owning a business myself, i am well used to never hearing when you we do things great( occasional pleasant surprise though), pretty much always hearing when you dont.
This above fact leads me to believe most here that think not airing expensive/costly screwup issues in public isnt right, probably dont have a business where the buck stops with them.
You choose to enter the shark tank, you can get bit, its just flat how things work.
Posted By: Hot 340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 09:33 PM
Quote:
After 1 season and had to repair 4 guides in 1 head(cannot remember how many in the other) because they decided to slide towards the valve head because they were not machined correctly,,are you kidding me!,that was not a parts failure, that was in the machining, you do not want to know what my present machinist/builder had to say about that mess that he ended up fixing,,
Are you sure that wasnt the fault of the low quality mopar performance head you used? They always seemed to have machining issues and bad metallugy from the get go..You dont need to remove valve guides to do most heads... unless you got them without guides in them.
Posted By: mokid
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/14/12 09:59 PM
Quote:
Never having had the reputation as the bashfull sort, and actually kind of proud of myself for calling a spade a spade, i will quickly relate an issue i had with SDSS.
Few years back i had a set of w5 heads ported by sdss.
I had them sent to Best Machine and a whole engine put together( which i might add i never had any issues with, beat on it for years, and the current owner after a Best freshen up/upgrade continues to do..to this day.
I got a call from Chuck at Best and drove down to Detroit to see for myself his concern with the heads. 3 or 4 of the spring pockets were so thin that Chuck easily took a pencil and pushed holes all the way through them....not good when planning to run a roller with some associated spring pressure.
Chuck repaired them, and thought we should pressure test them...they were sprinklers, again, were fixed and made to be usuable.
I was quite surprised they were sent out of SDSS in that way, had someone not looked them over good...well i shudder to think..
Just a couple of issues that come to mind from my own personal first hand experience.
To SdSS credit, that was i believe the first set the shop had done, but still sending that junk out was unpardonable.
Having had several excellent experiences with Best Machine, and earlier along, Hensley, i would have no problems recommending either shop, particularly Best Machine.
Owning a business myself, i am well used to never hearing when you we do things great( occasional pleasant surprise though), pretty much always hearing when you dont.
This above fact leads me to believe most here that think not airing expensive/costly screwup issues in public isnt right, probably dont have a business where the buck stops with them.
You choose to enter the shark tank, you can get bit, its just flat how things work.
They almost got away with another F up its funny how supposed engine builder can get away with this crap, I also own a business and surley could not get away with it. I would be sued. I have voiced my opion many times on this shop.
Posted By: F1Scamp
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 01:14 AM
I'll make my experience short and sweet...
402 stroker FAST motor. Sent to Ryan to have a freshen up and be switched to a 71 Duster configuration (Different intake, and exhaust manifold), Put the car together and it was a pig, Low 12's is all it would do. Talked to Ryan immediatly, he told me to change everything else. After changing everything under the sun (intakes, carbs, ignition systems, exhaust systems, etc.) and spending 6months and at least 15 track sessions, found he never degree'd the cam. He threw it in at 101.5 instead of 108.5. Said he must have bumped the tdc pointer. Offered a free dyno session.
Posted By: 1967dartgt
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 01:33 AM
Well I have had two shady dell motors, and have been nothing but happy with them. First was a 422 indy 360-1 motor that went 9.90s in my car and the current one that has been 9.55. Thats a 422 w-9 motor.
Posted By: BPE
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 02:44 AM
I Just got off the phone with a guy that I was trying to help get some W5's taken care of and he told me a recent story about SDSS. From what I was told Ryan somehow ruined his x block by running the cutter into the back of it. Since I don't want people to think I'm some sort of RyanJ hater, I'm about to tell you the rest of the story. According to what this guy told me he said Ryan is going to get him a resto 340 block and do all of the machining, including bushing the lifter bores free of charge. So maybe this post has helped in some way. This is how things should be done, so good for you Ryan.
Rod
Posted By: rickraw
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 03:00 AM
i have read all ur post. why was this RACE ENGINE just run in, instead of being dynoed? who's decision was that?? was $$$ a factor?? problem probably would have showed up on dyno. ryan did my heads on my sb, couldn't be happier. sucks u had problems.
Posted By: LA360
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 04:30 AM
2 issues you mention great shop is when issues arise,i'm pretty sure if this issue was done by phone or email rj probably would have made good,or said its not my fault,,we will never know,,,as far as to the issue of being close or far away,thats just bs Al...take a look in ryans shop for orders on things as far away as australia.im damn sure sure the effort for who ever you are is the same!
There are some unhappy customers down this way also, but quite frankly, I have seen alot of junk come out of the US.
I am of the opinion that if you are not 100% willing to stand by every part in an engine, new or s/h, then don't do the job, it's not worth the headache.
Posted By: 408strokerdart
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 04:40 AM
Quote:
i have read all ur post. why was this RACE ENGINE just run in, instead of being dynoed? who's decision was that?? was $$$ a factor?? problem probably would have showed up on dyno. ryan did my heads on my sb, couldn't be happier. sucks u had problems.
Engine was running over my budget and time wasn't going to allow a dyno session as I drove from Texas to Pittsburgh Raceway Park to take delivery of it.
Posted By: dartman366
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 06:18 AM
Quote:
Quote:
After 1 season and had to repair 4 guides in 1 head(cannot remember how many in the other) because they decided to slide towards the valve head because they were not machined correctly,,are you kidding me!,that was not a parts failure, that was in the machining, you do not want to know what my present machinist/builder had to say about that mess that he ended up fixing,,
Are you sure that wasnt the fault of the low quality mopar performance head you used? They always seemed to have machining issues and bad metallugy from the get go..You dont need to remove valve guides to do most heads... unless you got them without guides in them.
No it wasn't the low quality Mopar Performance head's that I used, they came with 3/8" stem size guides and he replaced them with 11/32" guides,so Mopar had nothing to do with it,,,and the rest is history.
Posted By: racer_amx
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 07:29 AM
Honestly i would never trust an engine builder unless they were brand specific, ie take a mopar to a mopar guy, a ford to a ford man, chevy to a chevy fanatic. I learned my lesson after taking my 440 to a machine shop where the owner and workers were all chevy fans, they made offhanded comments about "that ugly ole mopar block" and did a really piss poor job of vating the block and crank, i ended up having to run gun cleaners through the journals to get all the trash out they left behind, i assemble my own engines so i hate to think how bad it would have been if i were to have had them assemble the 440
Posted By: mafo
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 07:48 AM
I assemble my own engines, so I have to trust myself but I often check and double check my own work
Posted By: vc360
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 09:26 AM
Most of the small block guys on here are the ones who made him out to be the "small block guru" but he was learning as he went with all your stuff. Pays to do your research.
Is he trade qualified or just picked it up?
Posted By: LA360
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 09:56 AM
A history major at College I believe
Posted By: stevet340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 11:22 AM
Quote:
Most of the small block guys on here are the ones who made him out to be the "small block guru" but he was learning as he went with all your stuff. Pays to do your research.
Is he trade qualified or just picked it up?
X2! Nothing compares to a trained, skilled tradesman who has went to school to learn and worked years at his craft! Just because someone can memorize/spout off part numbers for mopar performance parts does not make them qualified to machine/assemble engines. I personally have even less faith in the "gurus" who write books. While they are entertaining and sometimes informative/helpful reading, it has been my experience that the real engine builders who know how to make HP don't/won't tell you anything as they have spent years/decades learning what works and what doesn't. With the advancement of technology I also don't see how anyone could/would be happy with a 400 plus cubic inch W-9 headed "Race motor" that only runs mid to high 9's, maybe high 8's on spray, W-5 headed motors were doing that 15+ years ago...
Posted By: 1967dartgt
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 12:55 PM
Posted By: emarine01
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 01:35 PM
This post has for the most part turned into a witch hunt, Whats next...Did the builder kick a dog in 1995??? In any business your only as good as how you resolve problems.... The OP did not give the builder that chance.... With that said do we want to kill any other builders that have a failed part or engine? This could become a very long post
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 01:58 PM
I had a engine blow up in its first 1/8 mile pass...
that wasnt the builders fault ... that one had a lifter
tie bar fail and cost me $3500 to fix... I also had
a pro builder build my very first race engine and it
never made it down the track... that one was the builders
fault... a rod nut was laying in the pan... since that
time I build my own junk
Posted By: rt66jim
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 05:15 PM
Well most who have posted on this tread have at some point in the past. Lamented how there is not much techno exchange here anymore. As most the the builders have left. Curtis Boggs, Fast68Plymouth, DTHEMI to name a few no longer post. I'm sure Ryan will be added to the list. I learned alot from those guys.
But as I recall in the Bible it says if you have a problem with someone. Go to them and try and resolve it first. Before bringing it to the community.
I understand Brian didn't want to ship his parts or trust RJ. That was his decision to make. But I think he nothing to loose except his effort. To at least give RJ a chance to offer some sort of resolution.
I have lost respect for some in this post. I'm sure nobody cares anyway and I'm fine with that. But at the end of the day we are all only as good as our word. Jim
Posted By: 1Fast340
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 05:21 PM
Quote:
Well most who have posted on this tread have at some point in the past. Lamented how there is not much techno exchange here anymore. As most the the builders have left. Curtis Boggs, Fast68Plymouth, DTHEMI to name a few no longer post. I'm sure Ryan will be added to the list. I learned alot from those guys.
But as I recall in the Bible it says if you have a problem with someone. Go to them and try and resolve it first. Before bringing it to the community.
I understand Brian didn't want to ship his parts or trust RJ. That was his decision to make. But I think he nothing to loose except his effort. To at least give RJ a chance to offer some sort of resolution.
I have lost respect for some in this post. I'm sure nobody cares anyway and I'm fine with that. But at the end of the day we are all only as good as our word. Jim
'
ryan already left this site,he just came back on to tell his side of the story in this thread.
Posted By: Labratt
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 08:56 PM
Posted By: vc360
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 09:46 PM
Quote:
Well most who have posted on this tread have at some point in the past. Lamented how there is not much techno exchange here anymore. As most the the builders have left. Curtis Boggs, Fast68Plymouth, DTHEMI to name a few no longer post. I'm sure Ryan will be added to the list. I learned alot from those guys.
But as I recall in the Bible it says if you have a problem with someone. Go to them and try and resolve it first. Before bringing it to the community.
I understand Brian didn't want to ship his parts or trust RJ. That was his decision to make. But I think he nothing to loose except his effort. To at least give RJ a chance to offer some sort of resolution.
I have lost respect for some in this post. I'm sure nobody cares anyway and I'm fine with that. But at the end of the day we are all only as good as our word. Jim
Jim the thread title says "TRUST" and Brian has lost his trust of the builder so no reason to go back IMO.
Posted By: rt66jim
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 10:54 PM
I understand that. Not blaming him for taking the parts elsewhere. That's his right. The way I've read it he just didn't give the party with whom he had the problem a chance to make it right first.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 11:07 PM
Quote:
I understand that. Not blaming him for taking the parts elsewhere. That's his right. The way I've read it he just didn't give the party with whom he had the problem a chance to make it right first.
If the OP dosnt trust said machine shop anymore, thats a good reason for not letting the shop "try" to make it better. He already failed.
Kasey
Posted By: b1dartsport
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/15/12 11:44 PM
For whatever reason Ryan made mistakes on the op engine,he was never given the opportunity to make it right. It was stated that the shipping would of been to much or whatever. I do not agree with trying to destroy someone under these circumstances. I have probably been involved in the building of 30 to 35 engines over the years and was suprised on some of the mistakes I made due to working on something when I had something on my mind or was just too plain tired to be doing this kind of work at the time. Ryan up until lately, has been a very helpful contributor of technical advice on this site for a lot of years. I can't tell you how many times he helped with my first R3 build and it was all good advice. I had not hired him to do any work for me, He just went out of his way to help me and I appreciated at the time and I still do. People like him are going to be hard to replace on this site. I don't usually post about this kind of crap but I could not keep silent any longer. Not trying to offend anyone. I do not know Brian personally but I know he comes from a great family of racers and they are good guys. Sometimes people get upset and things get out of hand,but it ends up costing someone's livelyhood or destroying a business....Just my
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/16/12 12:06 AM
Boys, THINK.... A USED set of lifters were put in a new radical build. I would bet my shop that Ryan said--use them at your risk. A roller lifter is the most failure prone item in a race engine--Period! And there is NO way that a roller strength spring that was .200 from coil bind let that lifter fail--No freaking way! It is all that simple.
We all face cost isssues and try to find ways around it. Putting used parts in is one way. You always have to "talk" the builder into it but after hearing it hundreds of times they usually say--OK it is your baby. What are they going to do???Say oh no way you MUST spend the extra $750--then someone would complain about that!
You have to remember that while that thing is on the dyno the builder is on the hook for every part makers design, metalurgy, hardening process, material selection, workmanship, etc Is THAT fair? Heck no! WHY do engine builders risk all that for a pretty slim profit margin--WHY do they take that giant gamble--Who knows--any business advisor would say they are crazy and it is bad business to take such risk for so little net profit.
They do it because they LOVE HP and racing and the competition and the great releationships that develop over the years, THE WINS!But it is not a smart decision or a smart business model. And lets not forget....we are playing in a very risky arena PERIOD. Any of you weld? Have a guy die in a car you welded? Hope not--an engine won't kill anything but your wallet, simple fact of racing and going fast. Do you think that Richard Petty yelled at Dale Inman? Heck no--they blew up more engines in 40 years than you could bury with a Caterpillar--They KNEW it would and could happen for a thousand different reasons.
Please lets end this thread. Lock it up!
Posted By: BPE
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/16/12 01:58 AM
So it's OK for Ryan to badmouth other business' on this forum and you guys are good with that? Oh and if you don't remember here you go....
"Tried my Brand new Pro Systems 850 Annular blow through carb, for second time, it did not run worth a carp on dyno a month ago so sent it back to PS & they claimed they tore it apart, found nothing wrong, put it on a motor, put it under light load & it worked "fine" & sent it back... well, we forced it to make a pull, but you would'nt want to see the graphs, it was UGLY & sounded like it was going to vibrate my motor to death, I've never seen one that bad... that carb is JUNK at WOT. I have no idea what is wrong with it, but he will either be refunding my $ on it or I'll be bad mouthing him till day I die."
That gentlemen is a direct quote from his 417" turbo post (look it up).
Rod
Posted By: mshred
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/16/12 03:33 AM
Seeing threads like this make me glad I put my own engines together...even though I do all the work to my car myself mainly because I can't afford to pay others to, I think it pays off in the end. I have made quite a few mistakes and the only person I can blame is myself (my junk is slow anyways too lol). Luckily I have had am excellent teacher to show me the ropes, as well as a great builder steer me along the way, select great combinations of parts, and fix anything before it could even become an issue
That said, I hope the OP gets everything resolved in a timely and affordable fashion. I myself hate seeing a company get publicly flogged, but it seems like this just "might" be warranted with all the bad experiences that are coming out of the closet too
Good luck
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Should you be able to trust your engine builder? - 05/16/12 04:54 AM
Lets face it... most guys can assemble a engine to
specs but we dont run as many combos to get the big
HP numbers... the builders have run numerous combos
to find the hp.... I'm sure in the begining they didnt
make the numbers but with time and combos it came
around...thats way we go to the pros...
I took the word of a cam guy and it ended up wrong
but that was part my fault but I'm thinking about
changing it..... this is JMO