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I was looking for information on tubular K members and ran into this site. I have read some of the forums in the past and decided to join. I retired a couple of years ago after working 45+ years in industrial construction. I worked as an "exotic metals welder" for much of that time. I was certified to weld on high pressure critical piping and pressure vessels. I also had certifications to weld on "space frames", aircraft frames, race car chassis and roll cages, and several others. I am just setting out my credentials for the comments I am going to make.

Welding on car frames, suspension components, roll cages, and other critical parts of a car is not for beginners. If any of the components were to fail from improper welding technique, preparation, post weld heat treatment, or any of dozens of other issues, you would be responsible and liable for any injuries or damage to others and their property. I have seen hundreds of weld failures due to poor welding or a complete lack of experience and metallurgy knowledge by the welder. Mig welding with the small units popular today has little to no penetration in the parent metal and offers very low strength in the finished weld. Especially when much of it is ground off after the weld is completed. Grease, oil products, paint, rust, lack of proper surface preparation, and other issues prevent a good weld from being performed in many cases. Using improper alloy welding wire, and incorrect settings on the machine, and other issues unrecognized by by inexperienced DIY'ers create a situation where many welds are doomed to fail - sooner or later. Most welds done by inexperienced people will not be obvious to them as to how weak they actually are. I strongly suggest that if you are going to weld on your or someone else's car, that you take real classes from a certified professional and learn to do it correctly. If you can't weld to a world class standard, take it to someone who can. Yours, and others lives may depend on it.

All that being said, I have seen many failures of the factory welds and base metal on the chassis and suspension of many cars. I welded up most of the factory seams and junctions of frame members on the cars I was racing or using for higher performance. In all cases the extra weld reinforcement and added weld area increased chassis stiffness and improved the dynamics of the working suspension components. Carefully plan and design any modifications.

Most all cars are built with a corporate eye strongly focused on the bottom line. Anything that can be left out during the production process, usually is. Any extra metal added to the car, or time spent welding the chassis or body is money lost from profits to shareholders. The bare minimum is often the maximum allowed. So, almost all cars will benefit greatly from judicious reinforcement of welded joints and added support from braces, stiffeners, extra crossmembers, and sub-frame connectors. Just be very carefull that you do it properly.

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I was looking for information on tubular K members and ran into this site. I have read some of the forums in the past and decided to join. I retired a couple of years ago after working 45+ years in industrial construction. I worked as an "exotic metals welder" for much of that time. I was certified to weld on high pressure critical piping and pressure vessels. I also had certifications to weld on "space frames", aircraft frames, race car chassis and roll cages, and several others. I am just setting out my credentials for the comments I am going to make.

Welding on car frames, suspension components, roll cages, and other critical parts of a car is not for beginners. If any of the components were to fail from improper welding technique, preparation, post weld heat treatment, or any of dozens of other issues, you would be responsible and liable for any injuries or damage to others and their property. I have seen hundreds of weld failures due to poor welding or a complete lack of experience and metallurgy knowledge by the welder. Mig welding with the small units popular today has little to no penetration in the parent metal and offers very low strength in the finished weld. Especially when much of it is ground off after the weld is completed. Grease, oil products, paint, rust, lack of proper surface preparation, and other issues prevent a good weld from being performed in many cases. Using improper alloy welding wire, and incorrect settings on the machine, and other issues unrecognized by by inexperienced DIY'ers create a situation where many welds are doomed to fail - sooner or later. Most welds done by inexperienced people will not be obvious to them as to how weak they actually are. I strongly suggest that if you are going to weld on your or someone else's car, that you take real classes from a certified professional and learn to do it correctly. If you can't weld to a world class standard, take it to someone who can. Yours, and others lives may depend on it.

All that being said, I have seen many failures of the factory welds and base metal on the chassis and suspension of many cars. I welded up most of the factory seams and junctions of frame members on the cars I was racing or using for higher performance. In all cases the extra weld reinforcement and added weld area increased chassis stiffness and improved the dynamics of the working suspension components. Carefully plan and design any modifications.

Most all cars are built with a corporate eye strongly focused on the bottom line. Anything that can be left out during the production process, usually is. Any extra metal added to the car, or time spent welding the chassis or body is money lost from profits to shareholders. The bare minimum is often the maximum allowed. So, almost all cars will benefit greatly from judicious reinforcement of welded joints and added support from braces, stiffeners, extra crossmembers, and sub-frame connectors. Just be very carefull that you do it properly.

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So you are saying the plethora of 140Amp hobby machines are for hobbies and not car frames? They won't listen.

I would though like to hear your comments on post weld heat treatment, if/as it relates to this topic.

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I personally think using the steering adapter as an example is a bad one, as that part, although very important of course, is hardly stressed at all during operation. I could imagine an LCA strut could be stressed higher.
How much force does this adapter actually see from our hands?

A man needs to know his limitations...

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Wow, that's kind of harsh,

Having high load and high stress are different things. If a part see high load it does not mean it has high internal stress level. These OEM LCA are over designed, never read any report of failure on any forum. By welding gussets at the end of the stiffening flanges I reduce even more the stress level in the part and if half of my welding is bad I still have a stronger part.

The steering adapter is small and round, more prone for rapid crack propagation. My weld would be the only one taking all the load in shear. If half of my welding is bad, it could take only one hard hit on the road to have a catastrophic failure.

I don't pretend that everything I said is exact and a stress engineer might prove me wrong but it is just to demonstrate my point that some of us, DIY's, do care about our safety and do put some though about it.

BTW, the TIG welding on the Bergman's adapter is top notch, money we'll spent

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If you want to get serious about welding it might not hurt to look at what the local community colleges have to offer. Ours has some serious welding classes, being in oil field country.

Cheap at any cost, imo.

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A man needs to know his limitations...

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Wow, that's kind of harsh,

Having high load and high stress are different things. If a part see high load it does not mean it has high internal stress level. These OEM LCA are over designed, never read any report of failure on any forum. By welding gussets at the end of the stiffening flanges I reduce even more the stress level in the part and if half of my welding is bad I still have a stronger part.

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Paul,......
It seems in poor form to join a site and begin with trying to "educate" people that have been here for years. I can see if you are trying to help, but you went about it wrong.

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Kinda "harsh" on a first timer, don't you think?

The guy might have a wealth of experience to share, and he spoke his peace, I just hope he sticks it out and adds to the discussion. And IMO, I don't think anybody here has been here long enough to get a free pass on any topic.

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You still have issues of cold lap, limited penetration, etc,

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You still have issues of cold lap, limited penetration, etc,

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LOL - were you referring to the factory welds or the ones the owners made? The 70 k-member I'm getting ready to weld has it all, poor penetration, porosity, missing welds, etc. Its amazing the thing survived all these years without coming apart, yet there's no cracks or failures anywhere.


I whole-heartedly agree with your points but with reasonable care, technique, & proper heat settings, I can only make it stronger as the factory welds were pretty crappy:)

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You still have issues of cold lap, limited penetration, etc,

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LOL - were you referring to the factory welds or the ones the owners made? The 70 k-member I'm getting ready to weld has it all, poor penetration, porosity, missing welds, etc. Its amazing the thing survived all these years without coming apart, yet there's no cracks or failures anywhere.


I whole-heartedly agree with your points but with reasonable care, technique, & proper heat settings, I can only make it stronger as the factory welds were pretty crappy:)

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^^^THIS SO MUCH.^^^
Some people can break an anvil with a feather, I've seen it and fixed it. Before I became a civil servant I made plenty of $$$ fixing cars for DIY hacks. The K member that I modded was welded by a drunken monkey and though it held up, I have an engine that has more than 2X the stock HP and will pull close to 2X the G forces than the stock car could. Some people are quite naive about the engineering or execution of the construction of these old cars and ignorant of the effectiveness of aftermarket mods. "Stupid is as Stupid Does"

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