Re: drop spindles
[Re: dangina]
#1177879
02/13/12 08:20 PM
02/13/12 08:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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If you have to use their brackets that sucks for brake upgrades.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: Viol8r]
#1177884
02/19/12 12:21 PM
02/19/12 12:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001 Coram, NY
Pool Fixer
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001
Coram, NY
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Quote:
Drop spindles can give you an opportunity to utilize more shock travel while you keep the same Center of Gravity location. Other then that, to me, there is not much benefit unless you know exactly what you are trying to accomplish.
If you think that throwing drop spindles on will help the car handle better, this is not correct. The most important factor in all this is your Roll Center. Using drop spindles is effectively raising your roll center, which is not ideal for racing situations.
I'm curious too...I have the front of my 68 charger lowered a little but what have I actually done by backing off the adjusters on the Tbars? I always thought drop spindles were just a better way to lower a car because you can get lower ride height with the same suspension adjustments. does backing of the adjusters do anything to the spring rate of the bar? or does it change any of the other alignment specs? I had it aligned at it's current "lower" height...so with all things being equal are drop spindles enough of a better way to lower a car to justify the cost?
oh... and I looked at the spindles in the OP's link. I don't think they are drop spindles at all, just drop forged like your old craftsman wrenches lol.
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: Pool Fixer]
#1177885
02/19/12 02:10 PM
02/19/12 02:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,548 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,548
So Cal
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Quote:
... and I looked at the spindles in the OP's link. I don't think they are drop spindles at all, just drop forged like your old craftsman wrenches lol.
You are correct. The spindle pictured is not a drop spindle. If they are selling what is in the picture they that listing is totally false and misleading.
http://www.helixsuspension.com/catalog/S...-Bracket-(Pair)
BTW the picture of the spindle is upside down. Most everyone displays a part for sale in roughly the installed position. IMHO, further showing the seller has no clue what he is selling.
The spindled pictured are just the same spindle everyone is selling for disk brake conversions; Right Stuff, PST, Just Suspension, etc, etc...
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1177886
02/19/12 02:12 PM
02/19/12 02:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,548 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,548
So Cal
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This is what a Mopar dropped spindle looks like:
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1177888
02/21/12 07:18 PM
02/21/12 07:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,126 85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,126
85086
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Quote:
Stock spindles can bent almost 90° w/o breaking (drop forged). All the aftermarket ones are some premium cast "Austermpered"). Judge for yourself:
Drop Spindle Test Video
Rick
The helix spindles are drop forged according to their ad.
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: moparpollack]
#1177889
02/21/12 08:05 PM
02/21/12 08:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688 Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
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Quote:
The helix spindles are drop forged according to their ad.
I sincerely hope so! But the title of the post was "drop spindles", so that's where I went.
Do we know if the Helix knuckles are large bearing? Tall (73-up)? Caliper adapters they show: 10.87 or 11.75"?
Rick
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1177890
02/21/12 09:47 PM
02/21/12 09:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,126 85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,126
85086
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Quote:
Stock spindles can bent almost 90° w/o breaking (drop forged). All the aftermarket ones are some premium cast "Austermpered"). Judge for yourself:
Drop Spindle Test Video
Rick
I never knew Lemmy was a mopar fan.
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: cogen80]
#1177892
02/22/12 11:52 AM
02/22/12 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,405 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,405
Pikes Peak Country
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I'd say this is all similar to opinions engine builders have about forged cranks vs the newer cast steel units and wheel manufactuers have been spouting about forged vs cast wheels for decades. A lot of progress has been made in the casting process and materials that they use are not as brittle as they were in decades past, but a casting will still fail before a forging.
However, using a sledge to hammer on a spindle that is retained at the very tip of the threads isn't really representative of the way loads are carried by and transfered through the part. The tip of the spindle does not carry the entire force of the load put in to the component, so the fact that it broke doesn't suprise me. Clamp the spindle at the lower ball joint surface and then hammer at it and see what happens then.
From what I've seen on the market, there are only two drop spindles out there for mopar applications. There are the Fatman units that are basically a plate with a pressed in stub shaft and welded upper ball joint tab (and they weigh a lot!) and these cast steel units that I "think" originated at Magnumforce, but are resold through several different vendors such as PST, Just Suspension, and maybe even Helix. IMO, Helix needs to update their website to more properly represent what they are selling as their description doesn't match their picture.
There are some practical uses for drop spindles in competition applications where the range of adjustment is great enough to correct the geometry issues that results from their use. Drop spindles do create additional bump steer problems because of the change of position of the inner tie rod pivot points that results from the overall change of chassis position.
For the average cruiser crowd who wants a lower look with soft wheel rates that need the extra travel to avoid bottoming out, they are perfect. For a performance enthusiast with a basically stock layout and higher wheel rates on a relatively smooth surface, like a track, there isn't a lot of benefit compared to the tried and true turn down the t-bars approach.
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#1177895
02/22/12 02:48 PM
02/22/12 02:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780 Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
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Quote:
How does the inner tie rod pivot position change with drop knuckles?
As far as I know, the location of the upper and lower ball joints as well as the tie rod stay in the same place. The only thing moved upward is the spindle and caliper mounts.
I can see how lowering a vehicle by relaxing the torsion bars would cause that problem, however.
Legit question. All things being equal drop spindles would raise the inner mounting point of the tie-rods vs. lowering stock suspenion. Whether that is a noticable effect of bump, not sure. I would think if you are real serious about all this, these things will need to be checked before you hit the track.
I attached a few different scenarios of the effect that drop spindles can have on roll center. Bottom line is if you just bolt on drop spindles you effectively raise your roll center, unless mods are made. Your car will appear lower but the performance could be compromised. These are hypothetical drawings, just for reference.
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Re: drop spindles
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#1177896
02/22/12 02:56 PM
02/22/12 02:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
How does the inner tie rod pivot position change with drop knuckles?
As far as I know, the location of the upper and lower ball joints as well as the tie rod stay in the same place. The only thing moved upward is the spindle and caliper mounts.
I can see how lowering a vehicle by relaxing the torsion bars would cause that problem, however.
yup...
and I do agree, pounding on the tip of the spindle with a sledge is not scientific, repeatable, or any way representative of the way the part is loaded. With no strain gages measuring strain and a controlled and measured application of force, you have no way of saying which are "stronger". Personally, as an engineer, I'd be embarrassed to have my name associated with this "test", but that's just me. yeah, a low carbon factory forging might bend over before it breaks, but how much force caused it to bend?
Magnumforce claims their parts are 130ksi ultimate tensile strength austempered ductile iron...a typical 1018 forging has a UTS of about 64ksi with a yield of about 54ksi. 1010 forgings are about 44ksi yield, 53ksi UTS. in the ferrous world, UTS and yield are related to the hardness of the material-- the harder the material, the more stress before yield. Again in the ferrous world, the harder the steel, the less % elongation before failure (the part snaps instead of folding over).
Austempering is a special heat treat process used mainly with ductile iron that allows the continuous steel phase to remain in it's austinetic crystal structure at room temperature instead of forming martensite in a traditional Q&T process. you end up with a more homogeneous grain structure, and a stronger, less brittle part..you typically see higher yeild and UTS levels with higher % elongation than you see in typical Q&T steel. austempered ductile iron can give an ultimate tensile strength as high as some of the strongest quench and tempered alloy steels....played a bit with it in my days at college.
granted, I can't say if the cast spindles are truly austempered, but in theory, a cast part, if properly processed, can be as strong as a forged part. the forging process works by refining the grain structure of the material. if you do heat treating to it, you eliminate any advantage of the forging process over casting, because part of the heat treating process is heating it into it's austinetic phase to basically "re-do" it's grain structure.
and to the other poster, spring rates are dependent on geometry of the spring and elastic modulus of the material. in a torsion bar, spring rate is determined by the elastic modulus of steel, the diameter, and the free length. cranking down the t-bars to lower, you're just reducing preload, but not altering spring rate.
Last edited by patrick; 02/22/12 03:17 PM.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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